Who pays for the rescue ?

“Rescuers claim ownership of ocean rower's boat

12.12.2003


Luckless British rower Jim Shekhdar is back on land and embroiled in a row over the ownership of his boat, the Hornette.

Mr Shekhdar, 57, arrived in Wellington yesterday on the Government-owned research ship Tangaroa, which rescued him from the Southern Ocean three weeks ago.

He had been attempting to become the first person to row solo from New Zealand to South Africa.

He was two weeks into his journey when he phoned for help after he was hurt when his 7.8m fibreglass boat rolled in a storm 1200km east of Bluff.

The Tangaroa, run by the National Institute of Water and Atmospheric Research (Niwa), was diverted 350 nautical miles (about 650km) to pick him up.

The rescue was estimated to have cost Niwa several thousand dollars. An Air Force Orion was also sent to act as spotter at a cost of about $100,000.

Niwa is now claiming ownership of the boat in an effort to recoup some of its costs.

Under international law it was required to rescue Mr Shekhdar, but is claiming his boat is salvage, to which it is entitled.

Mr Shekhdar said the boat could not be salvage as it was not abandoned and was still seaworthy. He planned to ship it back to Britain.

"Obviously there's a cost to do a rescue like this but you can't squeeze blood out of a stone," he said.

He was already in debt and could not get insurance cover for the journey.

He met with Niwa management yesterday to try to resolve the dispute. No agreement was reached.

He had yet to make a decision about whether he would try again to row to South Africa. He planned to return home on Monday and would consider the future over Christmas.

"I'm more convinced than I was before that it can be done and this is the design of boat to do it."

Mr Shekhdar also met Maritime Safety Authority officials yesterday to discuss his rescue.

The authority had threatened to use legislation to stop him trying again, but director Russell Kilvington said th nautical miles (about 650km) to pick him up.

The rescue was estimated to have cost Niwa several thousand dollars. An Air Force Orion was also sent to act as spotter at a cost of about $100,000.

Niwa is now claiming ownership of the boat in an effort to recoup some of its costs.

Under international law it was required to rescue Mr Shekhdar, but is claiming his boat is salvage, to which it is entitled.

Mr Shekhdar said the boat could not be salvage as it was not abandoned and was still seaworthy. He planned to ship it back to Britain.

"Obviously there's a cost to do a rescue like this but you can't squeeze blood out of a stone," he said.

He was already in debt and could not get insurance cover for the journey.

He met with Niwa management yesterday to try to resolve the dispute. No agreement was reached.

He had yet to make a decision about whether he would try again to row to South Africa. He planned to return home on Monday and would consider the future over Christmas.

"I'm more convinced than I was before that it can be done and this is the design of boat to do it."

Mr Shekhdar also met Maritime Safety Authority officials yesterday to discuss his rescue.

The authority had threatened to use legislation to stop him trying again, but director Russell Kilvington said that any proposal would be assessed on its merits.

Mr Shekhdar had promised to keep the authority informed of any future attempts.

"But our view is that it's probably unwise. We believe that the deep Southern Ocean could be just a bridge too far for this sort of adventure," Mr Kilvington said.

Rescue me

October 17: A tug is sent from Bluff to tow Jim Shekhdar's 7.8m fibreglass boat back in after one of his three global positioning satellite instruments failed and his wind generator broke down 8km from Kaka Pt in South Otago.

November 19: The Government-owned research vessel Tangaroa picks up the injured Shekhdar about 1200km from Bluff in the South Island after his vessel by a storm.

- NZPA


So he asks to be rescued - (why does that phoned for help remind me so much of some unprepared hikers here).
Either he did get into the rescue boat, in which case it was abandoned, and the rescue boat taking it has salvage rights, or he did not abandon it and a doctor from the rescue boat treated him on board and left.

Parallel here is what are your thoughts??

If a hiker cell phones for a rescue, should the rescuers be entitled to sell off the hikers gear (tent, sleeping bag, stove etc) to pay for the rescue ??

Please realize this is the second rescue of the same guy, attat any proposal would be assessed on its merits.

Mr Shekhdar had promised to keep the authority informed of any future attempts.

"But our view is that it's probably unwise. We believe that the deep Southern Ocean could be just a bridge too far for this sort of adventure," Mr Kilvington said.

Rescue me

October 17: A tug is sent from Bluff to tow Jim Shekhdar's 7.8m fibreglass boat back in after one of his three global positioning satellite instruments failed and his wind generator broke down 8km from Kaka Pt in South Otago.

November 19: The Government-owned research vessel Tangaroa picks up the injured Shekhdar about 1200km from Bluff in the South Island after his vessel by a storm.

- NZPA


So he asks to be rescued - (why does that phoned for help remind me so much of some unprepared hikers here).
Either he did get into the rescue boat, in which case it was abandoned, and the rescue boat taking it has salvage rights, or he did not abandon it and a doctor from the rescue boat treated him on board and left.

Parallel here is what are your thoughts??

If a hiker cell phones for a rescue, should the rescuers be entitled to sell off the hikers gear (tent, sleeping bag, stove etc) to pay for the rescue ??

Please realize this is the second rescue of the same guy, attempting the same trip, and that if/when he is successful he will no doubt expect to get rich on the book he writes. Should the rescue people have to be repaid from future revenue from this venture before he gets any ??”

“If your unprepared and irresponsible you should expect to have to pay for your rescue. If your prepared and skilled enough to take on the adventure, but have bad luck or encounter circumstances beyond your control, maybe not.

Since he couldn't afford to buy insurance (which was probably astronomical) and he obviously didn't have backing for the trip, maybe he should be considered irresponsible.

Give up the boat dude.”

“Every time there is a rescue on Mt Rainier it always seems to be incompetent climbers from back east. Who is in favor of keeping east coasters off Rainier unless accompanied by a certified guide?


SEATTLE, Washington (AP) -- Deep snow and whiteout conditions on Mount Rainier thwarted efforts to reach an injured climber stranded with a companion near the summit, slowing climbing rangers and forcing a helicopter to abort a rescue attempt.

The injured man, who was showing signs of a severe head injury, and his climbing partner were stuck for a second night on a 45-degree slope with steep and rocky terrain above and below them. Temperatures dipped below zero Fahrenheit (minus 2 Celsius) Sunday night.

"There couldn't be a worse place on the mountain to try to do a rescue, it's very extreme terrain," Lee Taylor, a spokeswoman for Mount Rainier National Park.

Peter Cooley, 39, slipped and fell early Saturday morning on Liberty Ridge at the 12,300-foot (3,690-meter) level of the 14,410-foot (4,323-meter) mountain.

"He's in and out of consciousness, not coherent, agitated. He's not in good mental condition," Taylor said. She said the injury is life-threatening and he needs to reach a hospital as soon as possible.

His climbing partner, Scott Richards, 42, set up a tent and boiled water, Taylor said. The pair, both from Cape Elizabeth, Maine, had enough supplies to get them through the night as they awaited a rescue effort expected to take several days. The stranded men were in intermittent contact with rescuers by cell phone.”

“There is a famous rescue in my old Mountain Group, before my time there. Some hunters were were surprised by an early snow storm, and became lost in the forest. As they wandered around, they wandered onto the Yakima Indian reservation, which has a huge acreage on the NE side of Mt. Adams. On the reservation, they found a summer camp with several small buildings, for summer camping for kids. They burned down a cabin, as a signal flare. Then they burned down another one, and eventually burned down several of them before they were noticed by airplanes. I wish I knew more details of that incident, but I guess idiots can be anywhere.”

“Now they don't get lost anymore. 15 to 20 in a Federal Pen for Arson took care of that.”

“Hey, bad luck can happen to anyone - this could have been a couple of experienced guys. The news reports haven't been very detailed. I just hope they get them off the mountain.”

“I saw they finally got the guy off the mountain today, after having been trapped by weather there for three days.

It just seems like every time there is a rescue on Rainier it involves people from back east attempting it themselves: Colorado, Maine, etc. These jokers come out here thinking that because they climbed a fourteener in Colorado its the same thing as climbing Rainier.”

“Another irresponsible climber, this one from Utah, trying to climb solo on a glaciated peak. The weather alone would make an intelligent climber think twice about doing it alone.

ANCHORAGE, Alaska (Reuters) -- A climber missing for a week on a mountain in interior Alaska is probably dead, and efforts to locate him have been sharply curtailed, a National Park Service spokesman said Monday.

Jason Harper, a veteran climber whose family is from Utah, was last seen on May 4, when he was dropped off by air taxi on 16,237-foot Mount Sanford in Wrangell-St. Elias National Park and Preserve. He failed to show up five days later when his pilot arrived for a scheduled pickup.

The ensuing search by the Park Service, Alaska State Troopers and others found Harper's camp in a collapsed snow shelter at the base of a large glacier on the mountain. Harper apparently tried a one-day assault on the summit, but did not return from that, said National Park spokesman Smitty Parratt.

It is possible that Harper disappeared into a glacial crevasse, Parratt said. "There are literally thousands of them and you can't see the bottoms of them," he said. "If something happened, we might not know about that for a very long time."

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/West/05/17/life.climber.reut/index.html”

“The rescued climber helicoptered off Rainier died later in the hospital.”

“I hope I'm reading your posts wrong, but it seems you're taking a perverse pleasure in this tragedy.

These jokers come out here thinking that because they climbed a fourteener in Colorado its the same thing as climbing Rainier.

This now-deceased "joker" had three kids. He had been a been a search and rescue volunteer on Mt. McKinley and had summitted Rainier four times and Denali....solo. He wore a climbing helmet. I was born here, as were my parents and grandparents. I climbed Rainier and didn't wear a helmet If I'd died on the mountain, would that have been any less irresponsible?”

“They were both very experienced. It's really sad. These things can happen to anyone, experienced or not. Makes you check your step a little bit more. My condolences to the family and hats off to the climbing partner who made a gallant effort to save his friend. He is still on the mountain, being brought down by a rescue team. Spent last night at 9,000 feet. Don't know if they have told him about his friend yet.”

“People die crossing the street, even really experienced street crossers.”

“The accident is tragic and shows once again that Nature sometimes wins and at an enormous price.

However, USA has a point. My climbing instructor, Ga�tan Castilloux, Ecole nationale d'escalade du Qu�bec (UIAA), Suret� du Qu�bec (State police) SAR expert, gets spare over this point.

Being French Canadian, he says French Canadians are the worst, while English Canadians have the kind of mentality to which it is obvious to be trained before going out West to play in the mountains.
I'm not sure he's right about the ethnic element, but many climbers go out West to tackle mountains and conditions otherwise unknown to us out East.

Courses are available at unbelievably reasonable cost to members of the American Alpine Club and the Alpine Club of Canada. Membership in the AAC brings automatic rescue insurance to 6 000 metres and additional insurance in 1 000 metre increments is available at a very reasonable supplemental cost.

I think that a permit system ought to be put in place and that one must be AAC or ACC certified to get one.

JMHO.

Doug”

“Accidents can happen to anyone, and most of us started out my making some dumb mistakes that we were lucky enough to survive. After climbing a lot of Sierra peaks, and a few years of rockclimbing in Yosemite, I moved to Washington to climb in the Cascades.

My first stop, literally my first day in the state, was to go to Mt. Rainier. Of course, where else would I go first? I hiked up to Camp Muir (10,000') solo. The ranger there wouldn't let me go on to the summit solo, so I found another solo climber, and we roped up and I dragged him up the mountain. (oh to be 22 again) We had fair weather, good snow, no wind, no problem, except whats up with these crazy midnight starts on the climb. We reached the summit, went back down, no problem. I was probably wearing jeans and a sweatshirt, no helmet that I recall, maybe a down coat.

I told my Yosemite climbing partner that it was great fun, come on up and we'll do it again. So the next summer, he and I went there for a repeat. This time I KNOW I was wearing jeans, a windbreaker, a sweatshirt, and a nylon jacket. The weather was bad when we started out, but the RMI guded parties were streaming forth like trains, and we tagged along. It got increasingly windy, cold, nasty, and awful as approached the top. About 200 feet from the top, the RMI parties turned back, and so did we. On the way down, I felt a tub on my rope, and from behind me my partner came flying over head like superman, and crash landed in scree in front of me. The wind had picked him up and flung him 40 feet. By then the jeans were pretty wet from driving rain and ice, and then they froze. As I kept walking, they were stiff as stove pipe except at the knees. As they froze and I walked, the ice pulled all the hair off my legs. OUch! Back at camp Muir it was a blowing whiteout, with driving ice chunks shredding any exposed skin. I had sunglasses, but not goggles. Only one guy in the hut had goggles, so about 15 of us tied him into an end of the rope, agreed on a compass bearing down the mountain, gave him a compass, and sent him down, dragging the rope. We all grabbed onto the rope, and walked with our eyes closed fform the blowing ice particles. Miraculously, we made it down, and went our own ways.

That trip was 30+ years ago, and inspired me to get some equipment for the northwest. I was used to California mountains, and we could get away with pretty light duty clothing in the Sierra. Not so in the PNW, and especially not on Rainier in a storm.

So I guess everyone is entitled to their learning experience. Hopefully they will survive a few of those, like I did.

I don't think Mountain Rescue people mind rescuing climbers. The people in my group didn't, maybe because we had all done stupid things ourselves.”

“If an American does something anywhere in America, there's a good chance that he or she is an Easterner or a Californian. It's a population dispersement thing.

Figure me this...
Rhode Island has twice the population of Montanna, yet is only 1/140th the size of the Big Sky state.

Speaking of Montana...
Wasn't there an incident a couple years ago where several experienced westerners were killed - including a world class skier/boarder - while doing some extreme mountain skiing?

Ocala '04 included TTers from 13 states, not just Sunshineys.

It's become a small country.”

“And by the way, there is a permit system on Rainier. They have you itemize the gear you have, and have certain gear that is required. There is a ranger camped at Camp Muir (10,000) who knows who is expected, and greets them, and checks them over. Rangers often do the climb, and watch for people in trouble. But that is the standard route, and there is also some oversight on the Sunrise route. There are 50 or more other routes, and if people choose those routes, they are on their own. If a person is totally unprepared, and chooses a non-standard route, thats not a good choice.”

“Easy to tell you are a Canadian Doug.

Permits !!

This is the land of the free,
don't need no stinkin' permits.

heck, next you will want licences to drive and wanna put restrictions on guns.

Perhaps if the society here put a greater responsibility on the person. Where rescue is not guaranteed, where the rescue team will wait until it is safe for them and it is your problem if you get in trouble.

In the NE most climbing used to be regulated by the AMC. Eventually there was a rebellion at their restrictions and general narrowness. Now we have an exponential number of climbers and yes, more accidents, but the sport is no longer restricted to an elite group.

Disagree with some club or organization deciding who can or can not enjoy "the freedom of the hills".”

“"It just seems like every time there is a rescue on Rainier it involves people from back east attempting it themselves: Colorado, Maine, etc."

-USA

Colorado in the "East"?

Right USA, there are no morons in Seattle either...

Actually, I recall a huge rescue on Rainier a few years back involving a bunch of morons from Olympia.”

“Ha, USA was trolling and caught an aero.

Please don't feed the trolls aero.”

“Do you know any of these "morons" USA?


SEATTLE (Reuter) - Just a week after Mount Rainier claimed the lives of two park rangers on a rescue mission, two more climbers fell to their deaths and
a third was critically injured, officials said Monday.

The three men, who were roped together, fell more than 2,000 feet about
2 p.m. Sunday from the edge of Winthrop Glacier at 13,400 feet. They came to rest on a snow bridge over a crevasse at 11,200 feet.

The Pierce County Coroners' Office identified the two dead climbers as Scott Porter, 32, and Karl Ahrens, 35, both of the Seattle suburb of Redmond. The injured man was airlifted to Madigan Army Medical Center in Tacoma, where he was in critical condition with serious head injuries.

Officials said the weather was clear at the time of the accident although conditions were icy. Bill Larson, assistant chief ranger at Mount Rainier National Park, said a rainstorm two weeks ago brought fall climbing conditions -- which means slippery, icy slopes -- to the mountain a little earlier than usual this year.

The deaths came exactly a week after two park rangers died trying to rescue an injured climber on the 14,410-foot mountain 75 southeast of Seattle.

Prior to that there had been no climbing fatalities on the mountain since
1993.”

“Hey!
That Tennessee hillbilly boy did a sucessfull Ranier summit a few back.”

“And don't forget the eighteen or something summits by Goretexx while smoking weed as his weekend warmups for "the big one" wherever that is (Australia pehaps ??)”

“Man rescued from Space Needle observation deck
SEATTLE, Washington (AP) -- A man who apparently wiggled through gaps in safety fencing threatened to jump from the landmark Space Needle on Friday but was talked back to safety after three hours.

The man alternately walked and sat on the outer ring of the observation deck -- 520 feet above the ground -- while police negotiators sat on the inner ring, talking to him.

He finally agreed to put on a safety harness, and a fire department rescue team helped him crawl back along a support beam, police said.

The man, believed to be from Seattle and about 30 years old, apparently squeezed through approximately 5-inch gaps in horizontal wire fencing that rings the deck, police said.

He was taken to a medical center for evaluation.”

“USA is an equal opportunity troll!”

“The guy squeezed through a five-inch gap???

What a pin-head!”

“"The guy squeezed through a five-inch gap???
~MarkO


Slim chance of that happening again...”

“BTW -
Thanks for the skinny, aero.”

“I say that damn Tony Randall ought to darn well pay!”

“Outdoors
Viesturs makes 6th trip to top of Everest

By Seattle Times staff




Ed Viesturs

E-mail this article
Print this article
Search archive
Most e-mailed articles


Other links
Ed Viesturs Website: High altitude adventurer
Times archive: Seattle climber did everything right, mountain still won
Times archive: One to go for Viesturs, who summits Pakistan peak


Seattle climber Ed Viesturs has summited Mount Everest for the sixth time, becoming one of two non-Sherpa to do so.

"Our entire team, all six of us and seven Sherpa, stood on the summit of Mount Everest," he reported on his Web site yesterday. "It was a pretty spectacular day."

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/sports/2001931568_climb18.html”

“This just in from Sherpa Central: "These jokers come out here thinking that because they climbed a fourteener in Washington its the same thing as climbing Everest."”

“I'm not stupid enough to think because I've lead-climbed Rainier four times and summited twice that I'm ready to climb Everest. No sireee bob. Not stupid. Not here. Not me. No how.”

“Great story Idaho Bob.

I remember frozen blue jeans rather fondly.”

“Not to mention, 'der Wolf'.”

“With the big rescue efforts going on in the PNW it has had me thinking a lot about SAR and responsability. Now let me say this as big as possible, IMHO...I think it's time the government gets out of the SAR business and climbers, hikers and boaters start taking the responsibility for their own actions.

Gonna climb a dangerous peak in fall? Go to a privately owned SAR company and buy an insurance package. You pay them $X and they will come save you if things go bad. If things go great they keep the $X and prosper. Like insurance.

It's a win/win/win for everyone. The great volunteers would get a paid wage for their efforts. Competing SAR companies would pop up in the places they're needed and stimulate local economies. Climbers get to be responsible for their own action and we the public get to save millions annually.”

“So, now you oppose laws/regulations if they are difficult to enforce???

Please tell me you don't want to go down THAT road.

Closing an area would NOT stop SOME from climbing/entering, but it would stop some. If someone cares so little about their fellow man, no law/regulation will stop them.

Who will pay for that Chin? Most US Forests are understaffed, let alone, have the facililties/personnel to patrol on a regular basis.

You seem very concerned about the actions of others impacting you in the backcountry. I've never felt endangered by the activities of others. Disgusted? Yes. Put upon? Yes. But endangered, no. If they want to put themselves in harms way, have at it. Yeah. I'm not too concerned about policing folks in the backcountry when we have robbers, rapers and murderers out there to contend with in the "real" world.”

“If they want to put themselves in harms way, have at it. Yeah.

Shil happens. That doesn't mean my fellow Americans should have to foot the bill though.”

“OK Nigal. So, given your proposal, where do you draw the line about the govt.'s involvement in SAR? They don't do mountain rescues but will come get you if you break a leg in the woods or burst an appendix at your car campground?

As was stated in another thread, SAR teams are mostly volunteer. The Forest Service just doesn't have the dosh to support full-time rescue services...”

“And the whole, it impacts my safety too argument...Question: why are you out there if it is declared unsafe?”

““OK Nigal. So, given your proposal, where do you draw the line about the govt.'s involvement in SAR? They don't do mountain rescues but will come get you if you break a leg in the woods or burst an appendix at your car campground?

See my post from above. I am all for the volunteer system but I am not against privatized SAR either. Break a leg on the trail? You pay. Burst an appendix in a car camp? Come on, the person wasn't taking extra risks like a mountain climber.

We can't just throw our hands up and say we'll take care of everything that could happen to us just because we don't want to be the one to draw a cut off point on responsibility.

I personally think mountain climbers depending on the government to save them sort of defeats the whole mountaineering spirit of independence.
last edited: 12/19/06 5:45:10 PM”

“I personally think mountain climbers depending on the government to save them sort of defeats the whole mountaineering spirit of independence.
last edited: 12/19/06 6:45:10 PM”
Nigal
6:44:14 PM
12/19/06

I don't mean this as a flame but this statement seems far removed from the three guys on Mt. Hood. Can someone please show me the connection that allows such a jump? I don't understand.”

“I agree, Nigal. Damn, that's boring.

Let's try this. Nigal, I think you are full of sheeyat!

There. That's more in the spirit of the modern TT discussion!”

“My surface impression is that these guys knew what they were doing and had no intentions of abusing the rescue system. They just had a very bad experience. Now, I think the big, over-arching question is: Increasingly, are people taking unnecessary risks because they know there is a bailout system in place?

I would say definitely, yes. So how do you prevent that? You don't other than through the normal educational methods. In all likelihood, they will be injured or die and increasingly, they or their families will foot the bill.”

“I don't mean this as a flame but this statement seems far removed from the three guys on Mt. Hood. Can someone please show me the connection that allows such a jump? I don't understand.”

It wasn't said about them. I wasn't saying that mountaineers should not be saved. I would think they would be more self reliant and want to arrange their own safeguards. It was meant in the sense of "Never let someone else pack your parachute.".”

“Thanks Nigel.. that helps”

“Nigal - Come down here to Florida and tell folks how you want to put more cash into the hands of insurance people so they can build more skyscrapers in the cities. But first let me get an insurance policy on your life.

Things were fine as long as the insurance companies were raking it in. But let a few hurricanes come along (claims) and you should know what has happened. They screamed bloody mary, requested the government to bail them out, argued and delayed payments of claims, and have tried to get every penny possible from rate increases.

I, too, wondered about the costs of the rescue attempts. Who requested it? What if they were found safe and secure in a cave or snow shelter and wanted to stay and continue in better weather? I do wish that they had been found safe.

An entry fee could include an insurance charge for rescues. I would rather have it in the hands of the government than in the hands of the greedy insurance companies.”

“An entry fee could include an insurance charge for rescues. I would rather have it in the hands of the government than in the hands of the greedy insurance companies.”
nowslimmer
7:06:46 PM
12/19/06

Having lived in Hartford, CT (insurance capitol of the world) I can assure you no matter who collects it, it will end up in the hands of the greedy insurance companies.”

“Well, according to my friends going backpacking, much less going backpacking alone, is crazy. So is jumping in my car and driving to places I've never been crazy. I do not want people who have no experience making decisions for me as to what I should, and should not do...

The same goes for mountaineering...most mountaineers or rock climbers I've met are taking no more of a risk than someone driving to work in a snowstorm which, by the way, thousands, if not millions, do on a regular basis in the winter. Things happen, people...the weather can shift in a heartbeat...ask all those caught by tornados...

Life puts you in harms way...it puts others in harms way maybe because of a decision you made...it happens...

Those of you who think mountaineers take more risks than the average person are mistaken, IMHO...the ones I've met are extremely careful, plan well and are very responsible...

I disagree with you, Nigal...I'd rather some of my tax money be used rescuing people than other places I can think of(don't want to list anything here for fear it will sidetrack this discussion)”

““Nigal - Come down here to Florida and tell folks how you want to put more cash into the hands of insurance people so they can build more skyscrapers in the cities. But first let me get an insurance policy on your life.

Please note:

Gonna climb a dangerous peak in fall? Go to a privately owned SAR company and buy an insurance package. You pay them $X and they will come save you if things go bad. If things go great they keep the $X and prosper. Like insurance.

Not insurance. Like insurance.”

“i agree with nigals sentiments, but have a little different solution.

i'd keep things basically the same, but force people to foot a portion of the rescue bill themselves, especially in cases of gross negligence. this goes for all public emergency services”

“"I disagree with you, Nigal..."

That's OK. Doesn't make anyone wrong or right. :)”