Judge banned snowmobles in Yellowstone

“Did anyone see the article in NY Times. This is good news. I understand this was difficult for the park ranges to manage.

Next year there will be non snowmobles in Yellowstone.”

“I imagine that'll be appealed and they'll be there while the courts all sort it out but HOORAY if hey don't!!!!

Hey Big Poppa, you gotta link to the article?”

“This fight has been raging for a long time now. I believe the snowmobilers will eventually lose based on animal issues. It'll end up in court though; no way around it.”

“Great news!! I hope it sticks.”

“Yea!!!!!”

“of course to read the whole thing you'll have to become a memeber =(”

“Birch was telling me it's so bad that the rangers at the check in have to wear gas masks because of the exhaust fumes. Having delt with them last weekend I say it's a good call.”

“The ban was a 2000 decision during the Clinton Administration and was to take effect in 2004, but Bush Administration ignored it and wanted to allow so-called cleaner machines in by 2004 (4 cylinder models that the snowmobile industry talked hem into)

Now the gateway communties are whining again that the ban will put them out of business. My gripe has alawys been, why does the taxpayer owe some snowmobile-related business a living (also at the expense of the Park)
It's not like they can't snowmobile anywhere else; there are millions of acres of National Forest nearby. The only thing they could do in the Park was stay on the roads- but some of the snowmobilers abused that privelage and went off-road anyway, chasing wildlife and driving their machines up to thermal areas.”

“Here's a story for free!”

“Excellent news. F*ck the snowmobilers. Now if we can only ban 4-wheel atv's in the rest of the country. And add Harleys to the list too. Those three vehicles are the foundation of White Trash America.”

“White trash will still be welcome in Yellowstone. They'll just have to get off their a$$es to enjoy it.”

“Harley's white trsh? Show me a white trasher that can aford a Harley.”

“LMAO Mutt!”

“tell it like it is, Aero!”

“Nigal, you may have a point there.”

“Harleys are for upper middle class now. No one else can aford them. This is why I ride a Honda scooter...am I white trash enough? Maybe I need a confederate flag helmet. LOL!”

“Nope, even with the Racist Flag on your helmet, you're still a ricer! ;-)”

“Nope, Nigal, you're not White trashy enough. You have to have room on your vehicle for your beer cooler and your dog or wife.”

“Now we should keep the Harley. In it's place though, on the highways not the trailheads.”

“Some folks seem to think this is a world-wide ban on snowmobiles; it's just Yellowstone national Park. The snowmobiles were slowly destroying it. they weren't allowed there until about 1960, but they didn't have the problems with all the noise and air pollution. It's not a good idea now.”

“I think the EPA also gave up on trying to roll back parts of the clean water act.

Judge was scathing on the snowmobile issue.”

“Next thing will be to ban our automobiles and force people into riding in some sort of mass transportation, which of course will be run by the concessionaire that runs all the stores in the park too.

Then, of course, the amount of people will have to be limited and reservations will have to made way in advance because they will fill so quickly.

Then, the price will get so out of hand that only the rich will be able to go into the park, the park that was set aside for the enjoyment ALL the people.

Then, after they decide to ban ALL transportation, nobody but the elite will be allowed to go into the park.

Then after that...”

“Chief, I think they already tried that at the Grand Canyon (south rim) and it didn't work so great.”

“Ah jeez. Not another fallacious slippery slope theory. *sigh* Break out the tinfoil hats.”

“It's working pretty well at Zion and Denali last I heard.”

“Right Chief, that's the logical conclusion. No one's banning anything. Snowmobiles in the Park just wasn't a good idea. They've got a bazillion acres of forest to play in. I say go for it!
You're saying that the snowmobilers are poor? HA! I've seen their expensive 3/4 ton pickups and trailers, not to mention their snowmobiles. Those guys got some serious ca$h!”

“I'm all for freedom of movement but I'm also a big fan of limiting auto access to some parks.

Most of you would be too if you had seen the amount of development and impact by auto visitation to these parks over a twenty year time frame.”

“You can still get into the Park. You can drive a car in winter, from Mammoth to the NE entrance. And you can go in on a snow coach and XC ski at Old Faithful. the difference now will be you don't hear whining 2 cycle engines and breathe blue smoke while you're trying to enjoy the Park.”

“I particularly liked this part.

"The revised environmental impact statement "was completely politically driven and result oriented."”

“Yeah, the Bush Administration just tossed aside decades of studies that showed it wasn't a good idea to allow snowmobiles in the park.
It's only "good science" when it agrees with your views.”

“No, I'm not saying snowmobilers are poor.

I'm just saying that this is the first step of many to come, none of which will be good for people wanting to get into the park.

Today I can afford to pay the entrance fee, the gas to get my vehicle there, and to even stop and have a meal at one of the concessionaires food establishments (although we prefer to take a picnic and set up at one of the smaller picnic areas). In the future, when you will have to pay to go via bus, or motor coach, or snow coach, I probably won't be able to afford it. And if I could, I would probably have to make reservations way too far in advance. I will no longer be able to say "Hey family, it's a beautiful day today, let's take a drive to the park"

I've seen it happen here way to many times already. They have been moving access to many trailheads farther and farther back.

Example: Up the South Fork of the Shoshone River (Forest Service Land), there is a trailhead called Bobcat/Houlihan Trailhead. Where just five years ago, you could drive an additional mile, across sage brush flats to the old trailhead, today you have to walk/horseback that additional mile. Now you will all say, "It's only 1 mile". True, but when you are hunting (OH NO!), and you have harvested a large cow elk (400+ lbs) and you are dragging it out, that extra mile IS alot.

I could cite many other places this has happened, but I will save you all from it, for now.”

“"Excellent news. F*ck the snowmobilers. Now if we can only ban 4-wheel atv's in the rest of the country. And add Harleys to the list too. Those three vehicles are the foundation of White Trash America."
Mutt

Thanks Mutt,
I appreciate your thoughts :-)
I'm a snowmobiler. Hence, I just got told I'm "white trash" and to "F@ck" off.
Suppose that makes you a Weathly Upstanding morally ethical extremist all american guy.
A little more about this F@cking White Trash piece of #&%!$ that I am... I served my country in the Marines to protect all yours, mine, our freedoms we americans enjoy. You prolly think all military personel are White Trash F@ckers too! I also own 600+ acres of prime woodlands near the Adirondack park. I pay my taxes and keep my land in excellent condition. I also allow a snowmobile trail to run through it. Also there is a few foot paths going thought it too. I try to stay in the middle of the road with my views. We all have the freedom to enjoy whatever we like. I have used, federal, state and private lands for my recreration too, be it hiking, snowmobiling, fishing, hunting etc... I do NOT close the land off that I own to anybody. Even if I may not like what their recreation may be. I don't worry about minor troubles as a worn down footpath or a smoggy snowmobile.
(Just a fact, One(1) days worth of trans continental flights, emits more polution in the air then a whole years worth of ALL snowbiling combine, so you ever fly anywhere?)
Mother earth has WAY bigger issues to deal with then a few thousand 2 stroke snowmobiles that run for 3 months out of the year.
I now I'm posting my views to a mostly liberal enviromental group, who include a few extremists, who can't reconize a "middle of the road view" where everyone can enjoy OUR country. I'm am one of this group, but I'm also one of that other group too.

Mutt,
One question for you, Do you drive to work or the store or to a trail head in a poluting internal combustion engine hunk of metal (vehicle) that will someday end up in a poluted junk yard area, that used to have trees on it?
(I won't mention the other items you used that came from the land and also help polute back into it)
If yes to this ? Then what makes you any better then a snowmobiler?
Have good day Jackass :-)”

“i agree with SNAFU29...public land is just that Public...whichs means everyone can use it.”

“Have they taken that sign down at the Gardiner entrance to the park, yet?

I forget what it says, does anybody remember?”

“Why don't you enlighten us :-)”

“The Yellowstone decision is common sense.

Chief is a future seer!

In the '30s there were some who thought we would have flying cars by now. :]”

“PS.....
Be ready I'm sure a few of the above, are reloading and soon will be firing back a rebuttle to all this. It will go one for a 100+ posts and degenerate into a huge political RepVsDem thread.

The whole point is, We stole this country from the native americans. Since 1776, "We the people" have all poluted it and abused it in one form or another. The only difference is, some of us try our best at being LESS poulting/damaging then others. This is so we can feel better about our enviromental morals and our beautiful country we stole :-)”

“It's something about, "for the enjoyment of all"- it dosen't guarantee you the right to blaze through there in a snowmobile.

Chief, with all due respect, you're fear-mongering. There's no vast conspiracy to ban all forms of motorized vehicles from the public lands. hell, the Bush admin. just opened up millions of acres in Utah which had been in a defacto wilderness.

It's sad, but I see more and more people sitting on their butts and fewer hiking than i used to.”

“Chief,

I am not feeling your pain on this subject.

If the parks make it that more inaccessable, that is just a few arm chair outdoors enthusiates that are out there.

I site a perfect example in relations to Yellowstone. I hated the whole Yellowstone experience when I went and saw "Old Faithfull". Too many people! I was walking on one the side trails that over look the park. There were still large groups of people up and down this little trail. This old lady got to the top and there is no bathroom, so the old lady took a squat right on the trail. Now I ask you, should that lady have even been on the trail?
My answer is no. If she had to go, she should have gone off trail. If she was unable to navigate rough terrain, then she should not have been there. It was sad.

I think, just because a moutain is there, does not mean everyone should have easy access ( with a toilet) so they can see the view.

I would not want to haul a 400 pd bull, but if that is what you like to do - then thats what you have to do.”

“blame the English...they settled this place and put up fences around land...native americans were stewards of the land.”

“Just so you know, I'm being more sarcastic on my above statement, then I'm being extreme.
You know the ole saying ya have to fight fire with fire...LOL

TT...lol
"flying Cars" LOL
How will they fly?
With a poluting jet engine, a sail, maybe a hot air balloon, or mini nuclear reactor?”

“"It's something about, "for the enjoyment of all"- it dosen't guarantee you the right to blaze through there in a snowmobile."
Aero

Yeah, but you blazed down the PAVED road in your car thru a area that used to be a beautiful wooded enviroment. but thats OK...LOL”

“I don't buy the argument, either, that prohibiting ORVs someplace will not allow some elderly or handicapped or physically unable) persons to access wilderness. The vast majority of snowmobilers and 4-wheelers I see (and i do actually see them) are healthy, young to middle-aged males. They're basically up on the tarils playin with their machines; high-marking, etc. The idea of the whole family (wife, kids and grandpa) happily motoring down the trail on a nice family outing is a rare exception.”

“Cheif the national parks were designed to perserve the environment, not provide unlimited access to it. If they have to restrict access to the park to protect the animals and the land then they should do it. The parks are going to be around a lot longer than you or I so stop being so selfish and respect needs of the animals that live there 365 days a year.
If you restrict human access then the government doesn't have to spend as much money repairing the damage to the environment from the human access. I just don't understand your "country club phrohesy" of what will happen to our national parks.

And the bus system in Zion works awesome! You can catch a bus from your hotel free of charge to the park. If you are camping in the park then all you have to do is walk to the visitor center. From there you can catch the shuttle into the park for free* (*included in cost of admission to park). There is less smog, less animals being run over, less cars parked illegally on road sides damaging fragile plants and causing erosion, and less car noise echoing up out of the canyon.”

“My first trip to The Grand Canyon was January '75.

Four of us spent six nights and needed no permit.

Last Xmas I did the same trip with a permit.

A ranger told me they had to implement permitting in the early '80s.

He showed me places on the map where young people had virtual squatter's camps in the '70s.
Some would reside there for weeks or months.

Hey, I lived in a tent in the Tonto National Forest east of Apache Junction, Arizona for over a month @ Jan-Feb '75!

I believe Baxter State Park REQUIRES hikers to have certain items depending on the weather or its no admission.”

“It's all just a matter of balance. It's a huge country where there are plenty of places to use you snowmobile, hunt and do other things. Why not try to keep the few areas designated as national parks pristine. The facts in this case were that the snowmobiles were doing harm to the park. The judge accepted this.”

“I served my country in the Marines to protect all yours, mine, our freedoms we americans enjoy. You prolly think all military personel are White Trash F@ckers too!

Yes, the military does attract society's bottom dwellers. And no, just because you served does not mean I owe you any respect. And no, just because you served does not necessarily mean you served to protect anyone's freedom. As an example, look at Bacpac. He served but he's a homosexual inbred douchebag.

I do see your point about snowmobiles, though. But I think the value of Yellowstone outweighs it considerably. Yes, I'm probably hypocritical because I do drive a car and take the occasional flight when I can't get out of it. But neither are done for recreational purposes. (Well, actually, when I was in high school, my buddies and I would drive the gravel roads and guzzle beer, but that's beside the point.)

Basically, I shot my mouth off, and you called me on it. Fair enough! I concede the point.”

“Trust me, polution and abuse of the lands and the enviroment bother me as much as anyone.
I think it was the impact of the Native American with the tear running down his cheek when looking at a garbage filled area commercial when I was child.
Unfortunatly the reality is our country is growing wicked fast. The population is rising and many of the American people have no respect for the land, the enviroment, or each other. The "me" generation, I like the "we" generation better...
All it takes is a few bad apples to ruin a good thing. one snowmobiler to go off the road and "chase" a animal ruins it for all, make someone say "f@ck snowmobilers" It also just takes one hiker with dogs that run all around barking, for another hiker to say "F@ck all dogs on the trail"
We all are hypacrits if we say we are a 100% enviromentalist...
We all use items that are manufactured from resources taken from the earth, fossil fuels, wood...etc.....
I think on this board and I wish more folks could be this way, is we are MORE enviromentally conscious. Iwish more americans could be that way too "Give a hoot, don't polute" should be "give hoot don't polute as much as you already do"
As far as the few bad apples. They will always exsist, hopfully they don't multiply to rapidly...
:-)”

“Mutt,
Thanks, I appreciate your post.
I chosse to join the service, hence, it was my own decision, I was not forced to join. So your absolutly right, I should not demand respect. I did not really mean for my statement to be taken that way though.
When I re-read it it does sound like that. I rarely ever even mention on here I served, I'm proud to be a Marine, but I'm not a ego maniac about being one either. Also, I apologize for calling you a "Jackass" that was uncalled for.
Merry Christmas to all, and to all a good night :-)
Someone once said,

"Ask not what your country can do for you! Ask what you can do for your country!"
JFK

God bless America, I hope we can keep it in one piece for the milleniums to come.”

“Another reason for banning snowmoniles:

The largest increase in backcountry rescue efforts of any backcountry activity.”