Trickle Down Economics

“I just got out of a meeting where I saw almost 20 people get "trickled" on. 20 more that will hit the unemployment lines at the end of this semester, with possibly more to come the following school year. Lots of friends are nervous and sad.

I'd like to start seeing when this "recovery" is going to hit.....”

“Can you at least concede that when a very small group receives most of the benefit, the program was for them?

Violin, my post wasn't irrelevant just because you say so. And no, I won't concede that a small group receives the benefit because that small group is stilly paying by far the vast majority of the taxes for guys like you and me. The rich are taxed up the ying-yang. They bascially fund this country. 5% pay 55% of the taxes. And you still think that's unfair? What, shall this 5% pay 90% of the taxes? Those who pay the most taxes should get tax breaks too. I like to take pictures.”

“What do you think has cost the American people more, the "over-statement of profits" and manipulation by companies such as Enron, Worldcom, etc. or the taxes that we have to pay to run our government?
The same folks in Washington who want to buy you off with a small tax cut, think it's fine that the minimum wage is less than half of what it was worth in 1973. The "fiscal conservatives" think it's great to starve the public sector and gut regulations while criminal business practices become the norm.
I agree that we shouldn't be at war with those who are wealthy, and those who truly create jobs in THIS country. They should be grateful, as am I, to live in a country where there is such an opportunity. The fact that they pay more taxes, not proportionately, (especially after their CPA's get through cooking their books), seems fair to me. We, as a people, are still protecting their right to be wealthy. Why would they not feel patriotic enough to make sure that good jobs are kept in the country that the espouse to love?”

“Like I said, I don’t want to get sidetracked with things like your use of the word ‘taxes’ when you mean ‘federal income taxes’. If I start into effective federal tax rates (which include income, payroll and other taxes) or bring into the conversation the effects the much more regressive state and local taxes most people pay (sales, property taxes) the debate would be impossible, if more accurate.

What I’m getting at is your concept of benefit. If the super-rich paid 100% of income taxes in this country and they got a 5% reduction, would it not be accurate to call that a “tax cut for the rich”?”

“"they", not "the" espouse...”

“There is a reason I've put buck on ignore and it's been great! No more temptation to educate a stone....”

“One thing I'm so tired of is all this let's beat on Bush about corporate malfeasance... Please stop... The man was President when these people were caught... um someone else from another party was President when these people were getting away with everything.”

“Well, it's OK. Soon, we'll just go back to the days when everybody except those 5% got screwed day in and day out. Do you know what the remedy was for the 95% back then? They formed mobs, and burned down the 5%'s homes.

Where's my friggin' lighter? Oh, that's right, it's made in Hong Kong, it prolly worn't work anyway.”

“What I’m getting at is your concept of benefit. If the super-rich paid 100% of income taxes in this country and they got a 5% reduction, would it not be accurate to call that a “tax cut for the rich”?"


Hmmm... if things were that way, sure. But they're not. So if the small percentage of super rich still pay over half the taxes in this country, like they do, then it just isn't the case. It's not a tax break just for the rich, everyone gets a tax break, it's based on how much each group pays. I hope that makes sense.”

“I'm not saying the corporate malfeasance was GW's fault. However, he represents the party who wants to gut regulations and who believes that the free market is the cure-all for all our economic ills. That being the case, I want people to ask themselves what costs them more, paying taxes that go, in part, to regulatory agencies that ensure that the big boys play fair, or the lost jobs, lost pension funds, and lost pride in being a working-class American.”

“I think we should also look at percentage of overall income paid in taxes. After a guy making $50,000 a year pays his income, state, local, property, sales, and other taxes, what overall percentage of the gross income is going toward taxes, as opposed to somebody making $200K. I'll bet the 50K guy has a higher percentage, so you can argue that the tax burden is heavier for him than the rich dude.”

“Bison, it's rather amusing, ain't it? Enron raped people financially during the Clinton years, and got caught and prosecuted during the Bush years, yet it was still Bush's fault. Uh huh. Some folks just don't like Bush. Period.”

“Ask yourself this. Who is it that refers to the ex-CEO of Enron as his old buddy "Kenny-boy". I think even a blind Republican can see that this administration is in bed with the big business boys. I mean, why wouldn't the VP want to reveal who helped him write the energy policy for America? Whose private jet flew GW around during his campaign?
There is nothing wrong with big business as such. I'm an entrepreneur and have no qualms with fair profit. However, I don't believe the "free-market" big business types need any undue influence with the US government. Let them stick to the private sector as do we small businessmen.”

“Dunaden, would you say the same thing about undue influence the labor unions have with the Dem politicians?”

“Buck...Your my kinda guy. Why do you waste your time with these suckers...It's all about power with these types..they like to win and will take the side of any issue to do so..Look how much the Democrats agenda has changed over the last 30-40 years...Trying to by logical with them is a huge waste of time..their beliefs aren't based on logic..just power and what that can do for them..buncha whiny control freaks...Nuff said”

“Buck, would you say that the massive decline of unions in the last twenty years has anything to say about their undue influence in government? Our economy was at its peak when unions were at their peak because good-paying jobs means more people can spend more money. It's great that there are wealthy people in this country, but they don't spread the cash around like the working class folks do. Just the facts, ma'am. Also, unions aren't in the business of taking jobs OUT of the USA.”

“Buck, would you say that the massive decline of unions in the last twenty years has anything to say about their undue influence in government?

Hmmm... seems like all the Dem candidates are always scrambling for union endorsements, no?

It's great that there are wealthy people in this country, but they don't spread the cash around like the working class folks do.

Wealthy people don't spread the cash around? What, do people work for poor people? The rich create the companies and the jobs, how much more do you want spread around than that?

Also, unions aren't in the business of taking jobs OUT of the USA.

No, that would be organized labor demands and increasing labor laws forcing businesses to make these kinds of decisions just to survive. The North Face, Marmot, Mountain Hardwear, etc., etc., all take their product overseas because they can't afford to pay all the wages and bennies and retirement and social security taxes and disability taxes and work comp rates, etc., etc., and still have a competitively priced product. It's just the truth. Also, people buying stuff on the internet at cheap prices, and folks buying the cheapest stuff they can find at places like Wal-Mart have cut into profits that companies use to pay good salaries and bennies. That's the fact. Look even here on this forum... someone starts a thread on how cheap something is at some online discount joint. What does that do to a brick and mortar shop who employs people and can't compete with those rates? And you blame this on big-business taking jobs overseas to compete with this stuff? Hardly.”

“It seems to me that this current administration, and conservatives in general have forgotten the concept of Noblesse Oblige; Nobility is an obligation. The rich pay more taxes because they can. I wish I had such problems.
The rich get more for their taxes than the less rich. The majority of the Federal Budget goes to the military. Who has more to protect, rich, Middle class, poor? What else does the Federal Government pay for?
Interstate Highway System. Who gets the biggest benefit? The rich. think big rigs delivering materials to factories and finnished goods from factories to stores. The rich own the factories and stores.
Laws. Who gets the biggest benefit? The rich. Who has the safest neighborhood? You want to walk around at night in Beverly Hills or South Central?
Education. The rich get educated people to employ in their offices and factories.
I bet everyone of you can come up with many more examples of how the rich benefit more either directly or indirectly.
I'm also not saying that we as middle class or poor don't get any of the benefits. I just saying the rich pay more AND get more.
Add into this that the percentage of the tax burden paid by the rich has gone down since Reganonmics while the distance between rich and middle class has grown in that same period.
In summary; the rich have gotten richer, the middle class has lost ground, and the poor have gotten poorer. The rich have not created the promised jobs. Most job creation and innovation comes from small business'.

So, yes the rich should pay more because they can and they get more in return.




Just one more point: Henry Ford is remembered by history because he "invented" the assembly line. AND because he paid his employees enough the be able to buy his product, a Model T.
Something most CEO's and CFO's today seem to have forgotten.”

“The majority of the Federal Budget goes to the military. Who has more to protect, rich, Middle class, poor?

Wow, are you putting "assets" ahead of more important things like family, friends, freedom, liberty, etc.? The rich have more to protect? I am not financially rich by any means, but I am wealthy beyond measure in much more important things.

Interstate Highway System. Who gets the biggest benefit? The rich. think big rigs delivering materials to factories and finnished goods from factories to stores. The rich own the factories and stores.


Do you realize what you're saying here? Who drives big rigs? Who works in the factories and stores? Not the rich. So these tax dollars go to support these workers just the same. Why do you say the rich benefits more on these things? It's the opposite, we all benefit more because the rich paid for it and employs us in the very things you are talking about.

So, yes the rich should pay more because they can and they get more in return.

The rich don't get more in return, but believe me, they DO pay more, so no worries there!”

“Buck...Your my kinda guy. Why do you waste your time with these suckers...It's all about power with these types..they like to win and will take the side of any issue to do so..Look how much the Democrats agenda has changed over the last 30-40 years...Trying to by logical with them is a huge waste of time..their beliefs aren't based on logic..just power and what that can do for them..buncha whiny control freaks...Nuff said"


I dunno, for the time being I just enjoy it, I guess! :^D”

“Did you totally miss where I said I'm also not saying that we as middle class or poor don't get any of the benefits. I just saying the rich pay more AND get more.?
Or Most job creation and innovation comes from small business'.

Wow, are you putting "assets" ahead of more important things like family, friends, freedom, liberty, etc.? The rich have more to protect? I am not financially rich by any means, but I am wealthy beyond measure in much more important things.
Are you saying the rich don't have family, friends, freedom, liberty, etc. AND assets?”

“Do any of you really believe giving a billionaire a tax cut will force him to spend the money on any thing other than the bonds that are issued to make up the shortfall from the tax cut?”

“Or maybe the "Politician Retirement Fund".”

“Yes, it happens everyday, those rich people are buying stock, funding new companies through venture capital, hiring me (started my new job monday - with a rather large pay increase and great benefits) etc...”

“Good for you,you're one of the few that will benefit directly.
I realize that some money goes to stocks ,but the efficiency of this system is at best , poor.What happened to the idea of cutting spending enough so that the tax money isn't needed. You wouldn't need the stock market to fiance a job,you would have the money and the job.”

“Bison, it's rather amusing, ain't it? Enron raped people financially during the Clinton years, and got caught and prosecuted during the Bush years, yet it was still Bush's fault. Uh huh. Some folks just don't like Bush. Period."
Buck
06:13:27 PM
02/04/04


This gets the dunbest comment of the year award. Nice job Buck.”

“No actually, the bloated budget is paying for my job, but I'll spend that money on products and services that will provide other people with jobs, and when we get back to the top of this business cycle we won't have to spend as much through the federal budget to create jobs like mine, and when combined with higher revenues we will balance the budget. The government has to invest directly in the economy and my job is only one example of that, but it's important to realize the investment concept at work here, this is a long term overlapping economic cycle, and Bush is doing exactly the right thing through tax cuts, and icreased government spending to keep what momentum we can so that the situation doesn't collapse. If we look at the rest of the developed world we can get a better perspective on how Bush is operating in the context of the global economy, the rest of the developed world is dealing with unemployment that is greater than ours, and gdp that is growing slower. What am I supposed to do when looking at Bush and his economic policies, Am I expected to vote for someone who doesn't understand the forces at play here? Kerry or Edwards or Clark may talk the talk now, but if elected they will see the situation for what it is when in office. We need the money that is now circulating in our economy out there where it is. Yes we could raise the taxes, but then we'd have to spend even more (What I would expect Dems to do, but who knows, I don't for one second believe that at this time they would balance the budget, because that isn't the best thing to do right now). At least with tax cut I have some of that money too spend as I choose, and the added benefit that the spending power of that money is not being chewed up by a bloated beauracracy. The point is the money needs to be out there working - and at this time, it's worth more as an investment than it would save by not having a budget defecit. It's the same as when you buy a house, even if you have the money to pay cash - you still take out a mortgage, yes you could go ahead and just spend the cash and say you are fiscally responsible and not spend that money on other things - but you didn't get rich by being stupid, you know that buy taking out a debt - you can use the cash instead as an investment and the investments you take out in the long run will earn more then you paid in interest on the debt.”

“Sorry, I'm not usually that long winded.”

“bison - as your investment advisor, I suggest you sock some of that money away, while you're making it....”

“laqtis - as an investor who has done well for himself, I'll keep it out where it's doing me good.”

“You are very right about three things; Kerry,Clark and Edwards would all be even worse than Bush.”

“One thing that is rarely mentioned is what constitutes being rich... I have a brother who lives and works in LA..He makes 6 figures, but at best lives like middle class...He just bought a 1200 sq, foot house..it cost him $460,000..and it's not even nice...By the dems defenition he is rich..which is total BS, but they don't care..it's class warfare..they want the money so they can dole it out to their constituents and keep themselves in power...I've worked in the corp. world and in the world of education..Let me tell you..it's not only business that is corrupt...The bureaucracy in the CA school system is mind boggling...It's sad really”

“Is that your brother that bought the house down the street from me?”

“How is taxing the rich going to be beneficial to the poor?

Are we not a profit driven economy? SO if you're gonna tax the rich people and big businesses, making it harder for this entities to make profit don't you think they will only pass thier increase tax unto the consumers?

Where is the benefit in that? Kinda a double edge sword isn't.”

“WS Davis - you really don't see that a household making over six figures is rich?
Sure they're not Bill Gates, but I'm sure they don't have too much problem feeding themselves, or even buying a new car now and again, or a flat-screen TV, maybe a nice vacation a year. The house was expensive because of where they choose to live. Cheaper houses can be had elsewhere.

You need to be able to see that there are genuinely poor people out there making minimum wage or less.
Just because you're not friends with them doesn't mean that they are not out there in huge numbers. Maybe you need to look a little beyond your own limited life experience.”

“Y'all are saying it wrong. It's spelled trickle down economics, but it's pronounced tinkle down economics!”

“"I think we should also look at percentage of overall income paid in taxes. After a guy making $50,000 a year pays his income, state, local, property, sales, and other taxes, what overall percentage of the gross income is going toward taxes, as opposed to somebody making $200K. I'll bet the 50K guy has a higher percentage, so you can argue that the tax burden is heavier for him than the rich dude."
- Buddha Bear


Exactly. I don’t know if there has been a definitive study, partly because there is so much data and tax structures vary by state and municipality. What I have read indicates that the overall tax structure is mildly progressive (the rich pay a higher percentage of their income than the middle class or poor) to flat unlike what is indicated by the Heritage Foundation studies (like the ABC news piece that Buck linked too – liberal media my foot) that misleadingly focus solely on federal income tax.

Even just looking at federal taxes, the payroll tax falls much more heavily on the bottom 0% than on the top 20%. The latest study by the Congressional Budget Office shows that the payroll tax rate for the top 20% was 6.3% in 2000 while it was 9.6% for the middle 20% and 8.2% for the lowest 20%. The rate for the top 1% was only 1.9% or roughly a fifth of the middle class burden.

Looking at the CBO’s numbers show that the federal tax structure is somewhat progressive when income taxes, payroll taxes, excise taxes and corporate taxes are added to the mix. Yes I think that’s fair. Income is not based solely on merit, it also depends on race, gender, power, connections, one’s place at the starting line and sometimes outright fraud. A progressive tax structure is fair play in my book (and I am one of those fortunate enough to be counted in the upper quintile).

State and local taxes are, on the other hand, quite regressive (the poor and middle classes pay a higher percentage of their incomes than do the rich). According to the Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy, nationwide middle-income families pay 9.9 percent of their earnings in state and local taxes, poor families pay 11.4 percent and richest 1% pay only 7.3 percent. Much of those taxes can be written of on federal taxes so the effective rates show even greater disparity. After adjusting for federal deductions, effective state and local taxes on the top 1% is roughly half that of the poor and middle class.

Adding all taxes together paints a much more accurate picture and really torpedoes the argument that the rich are overtaxed. Going back to the CBO tables, total effective tax rates fell substantially between 1997 and 2000 for those in the top 1% while they rose for bottom 20%. Is that an argument for a tax cut that overwhelmingly favors the top 1% ("tax cut for the rich")?”

“I should ad that for the vast majority of families, the payroll tax takes a bigger bite than federal income taxes.”

“So how is taxing the rich (people and businesses) gonna benefit the poor if the tax increase is pushed on to them,,the poor.

Let say you're a landlord and your local 'rental'tax was going up would you not pass that cost (tax increase) off onto your renters?”

“So what you're saying BR is that with the present system it's always the poor who end up paying. I think you could be right. I think congress should try and tackle that issue!”

“Not necessary JUST the poor but everyone,,, rich, middle and poor will have to cover the cost.”

“If everyone pays, then everyone should get something out of the deal.

For the poor, a decent standard of living.

For the rest of us, peace and security.”

“It amazes me that people think taxes are this awful thing.
I really don't mind paying taxes. As long as the money is well spent, then I'm happy to pay my share to make sure children are educated, the sick are cared for, the country is secure and even that there are wild places kept free from pollution where I can occasionally go backpacking.
As long as they don't come in at a level which stifles development then I'm quite happy to pay.

I also have no problem with paying a higher proportion of my taxes above a certain income level. It allows the country to be strong, safe and educated.”

“No takers for my question.

I don't mind paying taxes either but there is a point, like now, where excessive taxing and or the cost of doing biz in the USA is stifling our economy. Also as much as I hate certain loopoles, they are necessary in order to keep us afloat, like it or not.

Why are some of the major corp.'s moving away from our work force? Surely taxes might have something to do with it.

Again, so how is it that if we increase the taxes on those evil rich basturds that the poor will benefit? I really don't see how its going to work unless all those rich evil basturds get 'christian' on us. And you know that ain't gonna happen cuz y'll know damn well that they ,those rich evil basturds, are just gonna float their tax increase over on to the public, you and I and all the other rich basturds so they can make ends meet.

Isn't that how it happens?”

“Well I think the aim is that they will get much richer and the poorer people will get to fight over some crumbs that fall off the plate.”

“Briar - We have one of the lowest tax structures in the developed world - I'll find proof if you'd like. There's no basis at all for saying taxes stifle our economy.

You're the only one who has called rich people evil.

How do rich people pass capital gains taxes, inheritance taxes or income taxes on to the poor?”

“Why are some of the major corp.'s moving away from our work force?

--Briar


Because they are for the most part greedy bastards, who are unregulated and will step on anybody to make a buck.”

“Top bracket in 1965 was 70%---go figure.”

“Thanks George, because of your polocies, and republican idealism, 70 peoplethat I represent are without jobs tomorrow. Good job!

Maybe one day the douchbags that call themselves republican wake up, before it's too late.”

“that's policies......”