Outsourcing steals American jobs

“Redhawk makes a great point about unions.

In many many cases in todays work world the presence of a Union guarantees inefficient work. Once upon a time the Union was a wonderful thing in the American work environment. But now, and there are a few exceptions to this all the Union does is drive up the cost of production and make the American Union Shop uncompetitive, just look at the steel industry. I've seen examples of union and non-union shops in the same industry and every time the non union shop can get the work done cheaper and faster because they are allowed to be creative and flexible.”

“Unions are a double edged sword.”

“The airline industry is a good example. The pilots and mechanics continue to demand higher wages and more/better benefits while the company loses market share (due to price mainly) and thus loses profits. It almost seems that the union either doesn't believe the money isn't there or doesn't care that the pilots and mechanics won't have ANY job in the future because of the increased cost pressure they are demanding.”

“I was reading through here and I keep hearing stuff about Dems and Reps being responsible for the jobs disappearing. I try to remain Independent as I am a conservative liberal, but I need to say something...
When I and many others lost our steel worker jobs back in '99 there was a Dem president in office for eight years prior. Granted Bush hasn't helped any, but it is not a Dem/Rep thing- its a fat rich weasel thing.”

“Clinton and Bush both supported and signed bills that heavily increased the number of H1B visas being issued. H1B is a non-resident worker visa.”

“I know a guy who is in the auto union and the stuff I see through him just makes my blood boil. At the GM plant here in Dayton they make good money, $20+. The last time they went out on strike was because they were shooting for having three days a year when they could not show up for work, not call in and still keep their job. UNBELIEVABLE! They all get like $5000 signing bonuses too. Just for signing! They also have a 20% absentee rate per day. Can you imagine that? Every single day 20% of your work force just doesn’t show up.

No wonder the Japanese can make a better car, pay to import it and STILL keep prices lower than ours.”

“Wow! Consences! Here's an inside thing too:

My uncle works for GM at the Proving Grounds in Milford. He said that his kind are a dieing bread. Once there gone (the test drviers) GM is not replacing there jobs. I asked how will the cars get tested. HE told me that Japan has been doing it by computer for many, many years now and it's the way to go.

I like unions to protect people from employeers.

I like unions to be able to fight for some rights of the workers.

I like unions there to provide job sercurity.

I don't like unions driving up the cost unnessesary through unrelistic demands.

Unions have there place, but they are getting to be an overpaid dinosaur.”

“In todays marketplace the workforce is so mobile that the union as an enforcer of worker's rights is almost and maybe complete unnecessary. The workers fairly well speak for themselves with their feet. In almost every case that I've seen (I'm a consultant and have been around several environments) the union is a hindrance to progress. Without the union, the company would be more flexible, more competitive and more profitable, ergo, the workers would be better paid and have more benefits. We don't live in the 19th century any longer and "management" knows it.”

“It won’t be long before going to the doctor means a doctor in India is diagnosing what‘s wrong with you and you never actually see a doctor.”

“There is a protectionest attitude in this country.

Shortly after King George II (Bush the Lesser) came into office, he enacted a high tariff on Foreign Steel (to make it competitive with American prices). Two years later, Steel from Yugoslovia was still outselling American Steel at almost twice the price. Reason? Superior Product by far. The actual result of the legislation was that Americans ended up having to spend more money for goods using steel.

Then the European Union decided that if America was going to raise the tariffs on steel and other goods, then they would in turn would put a higher tariff on American Goods and set a deadline for December 2003. About a week before the deadline, Bush announced that he was cancelling the tariff because "It had done it's job".

Then he proceeded to put a tariff on Lingerie imported from China because American Manufacturers were complaing that the cheaper prices were hurting them. That include some companies that had outsourced their work to Chineese shops.

The real problem has nothing to do with illegal or outsource labor. It has to do with manufacturers overcharging the american consumer and corporate greed.

We have companies going bankrupt yet they are paying their CEO's Hundreds of Millions of dollars.

Is it just me, does anyone else see anything wrong with this picture?

Every time there is a problem it is "Foreign Labor, Illegal Labor, Unfair competition, Welfare, Minorities", etc.

With all that has gone on in the past two or three years not once have I seen any blame put at the door because of the "Greed of Corporate America"

Now, why do you think that is.

(It doesn't take rocket science to figure it out).

That having been said, what are you going to do about it?”

“I've heard about but haven't yet read this story in Wired magazine which just became available online. I'm posting it here as much as a bookmark for myself as for anyone who wants to read it. Perhaps I should cut & paste all eight pages here.

The New Face of the Silicon Age - How India became the capital of the computing revolution.”

“I am standing here beside myself and not so knowing why this job come to my village.”

“I bought that magazine just for that article a week ago.”

“Free things come to those who wait.”

“I wanted to get it while I'm still employed.”

“So I get 'downsized,' can't find a job, and become a hobo. In the past I would have been able to hitch a ride on a train, but today I'm wondering how to hitch a ride on the information superhighway? Heck, the only place it goes is straight to India!”

“Dare I say we did this to ourselves...Everybody wants a higher salary, work less hours and more benefits etc. etc.

And this same people invest in companies or funds that give a high return in dividends.

So companies start laying off people, and sending work to outside countries, to fatten up the bottom line. So the investors will be interested in investing in them. Vicious circle.”

“In the old days the railroad police would crack your skull open if they caught you hitching a ride on their trains.

And yes Stanlee, if people invest in companies that engage in any sort of questionable behavior, they should be accountable. Unfortunately, most of them probably make their money and get out. This makes me hope there is some sort of karma operating in the world.

I think there are many investors who turn a blind eye. 'See No Evil' is their standard operating procedure. Same thing for the consumer.

My problem is.... what does one do when there is no American made version of a needed item any longer, no matter what the cost or quality? Try to at least buy something made in our hemisphere?”

“Politician And Vendors Square Off

InformationWeek Jan. 12, 2004


Democratic presidential candidate attacks offshore outsourcing; CEOs defend it
By Paul McDougall

The political debate over offshore outsourcing is growing more intense as the November elections edge closer. Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry has unveiled a plan that would end some investment tax credits for companies that send jobs overseas. Meanwhile, a group representing leading technology-industry CEOs released a position paper arguing that the computer industry needs unfettered access to global labor markets.

(the rest)


It sounds like we may be screwed no matter what.

(a search on 'outsourcing' at InformationWeek yielded 2633 hits)”

“The US is by far the largest manyfacturing economy in the world:

http://www.ism.ws/ISMReport/JPMorgan/JPMorganMfg010504.pdf”

“Or manufacturing or something.”

“Here's one that doesn't make it out like the sky is falling.


Manufacturing Confusion
Thomas Sowell

"Manufacturing jobs" has become a battle cry of those who oppose free trade and are sounding an alarm about American jobs being exported to lower-wage countries overseas. However, manufacturing jobs are much less of a problem than manufacturing confusion.


Much of what is being said confuses what is true of one sector of the economy with what is true of the economy as a whole. Every modern economy is constantly changing in technology and organization. This means that resources — human resources as well as natural resources and other inputs — are constantly being sent off in new directions as things are being produced in new ways.


This happens whether there is or is not free international trade. At the beginning of the 20th century, 10 million American farmers and farm laborers produced the food to feed a population of 76 million people. By the end of the century, fewer than 2 million people on the farms were feeding a population of more than 250 million. In other words, more than 8 million agricultural jobs were "lost."

link”

“Shoot, it's just not manufacturing that's disapearing. Look at how many service industry jobs are going to India. Did you know your phone opperater and Microsoft tech support were talking to you from India?!”

“That’s what this thread is really about Sass. I only mentioned manufacturing to counter Tilt’s populist hysteria about there being no manufacturing left here.


_{Nothing personal dude. I just have to dispel the notion that we’re the same person}”

“The article I posted is talking about how the skilled jobs are still there. One thing he points out is that Japanese auto's are now increasingly made in the US. In fact, the Honda Odessey is made about 20 minutes away from me.”

“I volunteer to remain in the USA to turn out the lights after all the jobs are gone.”

“Have you called AT&T in a while, I have. I called them 3 different times to dispute a 7$ local collect call on my bill. All 3X I got a Mexican, I could not F'ing understand. All 3X those Mexicans would try to sell me some F'ing crap before they would hear my problem. It's f'ing bullchit. I eventually had to fax my bill into some dept. because that company had NOBODY that could help over the phone with my bill problem. Its been about 2 weeks and I still haven't heard back yet.

AT&T SUX! I never really hated Mexicans but I'll tellya this ordeal doesn't help.”

“Hey BR, next time talk to them in broken Spanish and see how they like that!”

“YOu gotta point Aero, next time I'll be putting those "o's" and "a's" sounds after each 'wordo'.”

“What really pisses me off is that we outsourced the White House to a bunch or Martians, and now they want to spend all our money to get back home. It's crap I tell ya!”

“_{Man, I'm sure glad you did that. I was beginning to wonder, myself.}


I still say we need to subcontract the presidency to Vincente Fox for pennies on the dollar.



Bureau of Labor Statistics figures show that while U.S.
businesses added employees last month, employers in
computer-systems development and support services actually cut
jobs.

http://update.informationweek.com/cgi-bin4/DM/y/ee6f0Byxxq0V20CMZS0AH”

“Campaigning yesterday in Roanoke, Va., Kerry questioned the credibility of the administration's job-creation forecast. "I've got a feeling this report was prepared by the same people who brought us the intelligence on Iraq," he said.”

“So my experiences with outsourcing thus far have not been favorable.

First off I am only talking about programming and software development/design.

Of the three companies I sent work to I have fired three and the third I will most likely let finish the project but not send anything else their way.

Why? It's not up front cost because they can kill us on that any day of the week.

Frustration factor. In order to make outsourcing work you must have tons of documentation, constant meetings and managers who micromanage projects. These items corporate america seems to specialize in so for them it's a match made in hell. For the rest of us it's just not worth it.

In interface design Indians flat out suck. They can make something look pretty good but the reality is that they completely lack the ability build an intuitive or user-centric interface that is relevent to anyone in the US. This weaknes carries over into the actual programming too and the the architecture reflects this complete disconnect.

In ecommerce the biggest isssue is that they don't get that either because they don't have credit or debit cards in India. It's a cash or check society. They just don't relate to how a that monetary method works or how a user like it to be handled.

Sure they can code pretty darn well but not for this market. We have to spend WAAAAAAY too much time training them to build software for the American mind. In short we have to teach them how to do their job.

Sure it's cheaper but they are costing us big time on the timetable.

I had a heart to heart with the client who beat me down so bad on price to force us to outsource the project. I basicly told him that his insistence on cheap product has forced us to produce a cheap product. A product we are not proud of, a product we had to spend a large amout of uncompensated time to bring up to our level of work a product we could have done right the first time if he had allowed us the budget to do so. In the past dealings with this client we were always able to exceed his expectations. He asked so get to the point what are you telling me.

I'm telling you that if you try to beat me down on price to the point that I can't pay talented Americans to do the work right the first time in accordance with the standards we set for ourselves then go someplace else because we don't want that work.

~blink, blink~ Ok, I won't.

In short, I'm not worried anymore. The cheap people will think outsourcing is great but frankly I try to weed out the cheap clients anyway because all they do is cost you money.

Quit wasting my time and take your crap work to Bangalore.”

“Way to go HPM! Good luck with your future American made products.”

“By the time we finish the project it will be American re-made.”

“Cheap Fast Good


Pick two”

“Well said mule.”

“Limits On Offshore Outsourcing?

A California legislator says she may introduce a bill to bar
offshore outsourcing of medical and financial records.

http://update.informationweek.com/cgi-bin4/DM/y/efme0Byxxq0Gls0CPtw0At”

“Even doctors won't be immune to outsourcing. A recent article in Newsweek stated that as Asia keeping cranking out doctors and health care costs continue to rise here, insurance companies will be more inclined fly patients there to have surgery, rather than do it in the U.S. That's seems pretty far out, but who knows where all this will end or not end.”

“...copy of post

"January stats say a whopping 8.9% unemployment rate in New York

I read an article this morning in the paper (am New York). Assemblyman Richard Brodsky (D- Westchester) has proposed a bill that would prohibit companies that receive state funded corporate welfare from outsourcing even a single job. State Senator Nicholas Spano (R-Westchester) has introduced the bill in the Senate, giving the item a credible chance to become law.

The thinking is that tax incentives are common lures to businesses to locate or expand. Businesses can receive grants, land or chepaer electricity in exchange for producing jobs. These men ( and kudos to them for thinking this way) are proposing that these jobs should go to the potential work force that are looking for work in the area. If they do not comply, all subsidies must be paid back. No state has yet to enact legislation of this kind, although it has been proposed in several places.

Companies that have moved jobs out of state or overseas:

General Electric - 11,000 jobs
Kodak - 6,000 to 8,000 jobs
Citigroup - 3,000 jobs
Bank of America - 1,000 jobs
Kraft - 300 to 600 jobs"
Treebeard
08:09:06 AM”

“When I got back into programming, I thought it would be cool to be able to work long distance... like being able to work from a home in the country... I just didn't think the 'country' would be India, LOL

And I remember all the hype a few years ago about 'telemedicine'... how it would enable rural patients to have better healthcare, access to specialists, etc. I don't remember anyone saying that the doctor might be in Southeast Asia.”

“There are already more cases than one might think of people travelling overseas for surgery not covered by healthcare insurance.

Some, but certainly not all, of the procedures are life-saving.”

“If you need a new kidney and have the cash, no need to stay on the waiting list.... Buying organs isn't universally illegal.”

“That's a different kind of issue, though.”

“I was Just Thinking... If you're over there already, you could get some preventive maintenance you can't get done here...

Pretty ghoulish.”

“Treebeard the numbers for Citigroup and Bank of America are incorrect. They are too low by a factor of at least 3.

Bank of America has outsourced ALL of their IT work to India. They shipped off over 3000 jobs here in Jacksonville Fl. alone.”

“Those are local stats, HPM. Sorry not to clarify...”

“Dat esplains it den.

I know a guy who is a H1B visa IT worker from India who just landed a contract position at Bank of America a month ago.

Last week they loaded up huge human sized boxes with all the project materials for his project and shipped his project to India and laid off 80 people the vast majority of whom were also H1Bs.

It's funny in an ironic sort of way that H1B visa holding Indians are now losing their jobs to Indian nationals who stayed home in India.”

“Yep. Ironic, to be sure.”