Georgia resuscitates the Scopes Monkey T rial

“BTW, just as long as we're on it: Nebraska man was a mistake, and was corrected by science. Piltdown man was a hoax, and was exposed by science."

Yes, Phaed, there have been a number of hoaxes and wishful thinking throughout the evolutionary past, but each time it is/was prevailing thought in the scientific community. It's sorta scary what science will buy into.”

“I'm comforted by the fact that science is self-correcting.”

“And regards you other claim, it is really inaccurate to say the tooth was fabricated

pedxing, I never said the "tooth" was fabricated, obviously the tooth was there. I said Nebraska Man was fabricated from a pig's tooth.”

“No Buck - the appeal reversed the fine, it did not challenge the law against teaching evolution. It did so on a technicality and it was not until 1968 that laws banning the teaching of evolution were over-turned.

Therefore, trial was not won and evidence in favor of evolution was never a factor in the case.

You continue to poo-pooh critiques and ignore how thoroughly wrong you got it.”

“Dunadan - I miss DEVO

Phaedrus - Evolution has changed b/c of technology but is not limited anymore than before. on is "artificial" since all that we are is through natural selection. Should I expand on this?

Buck - the argument was simplified for easier understanding. Over the course of I don't know, how ever long has life existed here, slight changes compound. Lets try again:

You have a mutation that develops a small flap under the arm ("1% flap"). This allows the creature to better flee a species and survive. Another mutation and you have "2%" flap. This helps this creature flee better than the "1%" flap. better to flee = better to reproduce = better survival. Through these small mutations and over eons you get a species with wings.

On another note I believe ther is a Histone perfectly preserved in over 90% of all species. This could not develop independently 1000's of times.”

“You're right you did not say the tooth was fabricated.

Still, it is misleading to speak of "Nebraska Man" as having been "fabricated" - the existence of Nebraska Man was hypothesized - incorrectly.”

“I'm comforted by the fact that science is self-correcting

Yes, same here, which is why we should allow all science to be heard and not exclude other theories. Discoveries and ideas may cause a self-correcting change as long as various scientific ideas are encouraged and not squelched. That's my whole point.”

“To be 100% clear:

"At the trial level, district judge John Raulston allowed only the introduction of evidence and arguments which pertained to whether the law as written had been violated by John Scopes. The jury believed that it had been, and found Scopes guilty. The jury, however, requested the judge to levy the fine, [8] so the judge imposed on Scopes the minimum fine specified by the law for a conviction. On appeal to the State Supreme Court, the jury verdict was upheld but the fine was overturned , for the law had stipulated that the jury, not the judge, must determine the amount of the fine."

i.e. no victory for evolution in the courts in the Scopes case.

on line source: http://www.wallbuilders.com/resources/search/detail.php?ResourceID=18”

“Buck....I said Faith, ie., personal belief. It has NO place by law in public schools.

JO, you are incorrect. Various faith and beliefs are studied in religion classes in public schools, even anthropology and huanities, etc., but these kinds of discussions do not belong in the science classroom.

Intelligent Design has nothing to do with religion, which is the adherence to a particular belief system. Intelligent Design only recognizes obvious intelligence found in nature, but does not seek the designer(s). Whether that is a god or gods or starry council or aliens from another planet, who knows. It doesn't matter, it's just the science that matters. SETI is looking for patterns in space for signs of intelligence... is SETI a religious project set out to worship a god or aliens? Of course not. Intelligent Design has nothing to do with religion.”

“Oh yeah... that brings up my other challenge.

Show me how Intelligent Design Theory generates any falsifiable hypotheses?”

“btw: I've got a deadline to meet - so I'm off, but I will check back w/in 24 hours.”

“You have a mutation that develops a small flap under the arm ("1% flap"). This allows the creature to better flee a species and survive. Another mutation and you have "2%" flap.

I don't understand how intelligent folks can actually believe this stuff! Step back and think about it. You have a mutation, a "1% flap". First all nearly all mutations are destructive. Second, mutations like this don't necessarily duplicate. Third, a "male" mutation would have to find a "female" mutation with the same mutation. Even then, it probably wouldn't pass on the mutation. What kind of faith do you have here?

If I was born with a third arm, do you think my children will have have three arms?

How many millions of years does a woodpecker have to senselessly and ineffectively pound its head into a tree to make its beak strong enough to actually dig deep enough to get a bug in the bark?

Also, were are the transitionary species of this 1% flap, and then 2% flap, and then 3% flap, etc., etc.? We go from flapless to full flapping in the fossil record. A partial wing is only harmful. Remember, a species can't say, "I want wings so I'll wait this out for millions of years", it's only a reaction to the environment. If I slowly grew a third leg, it would be a real pain in the arse for a couple million years until I could actually use it.”

“Show me how Intelligent Design Theory generates any falsifiable hypotheses?

pedxing, let me ask you this... do you think there is evidence AGAINST intelligent design?”

“Well, darn, you left, so I'll just provide a link to your question, whether it satisfies your question or not.

Is Intelligent Design Falsifiable?


Remember, Dr. Michael Behe, PhD and Professor of Biological Science at Lehigh University, is not a creationist, just so you don't get red flags waving all around!”

“"I just wish they would keep the football uniforms off of Nebraska Man. Then Kansas Man would be much happier."
Dunadan
01:50:17 PM
02/04/04

Kansas Man likes naked men???”

“i thought evolution was guided by that big chocolate bar from 2001: space odyssey”

“StormBringer, there is a substantial amount of verifiable scientific data to back this claim up. Problem is the evidence keeps getting eaten before it can be properly presented.”

“Many religious persons, including many scientists, hold that God created the universe and the various processes driving physical and biological evolution and that these processes then resulted in the creation of galaxies, our solar system, and life on Earth. This belief, which sometimes is termed “theistic evolution,” is not in disagreement with scientific explanations of evolution. Indeed, it reflects the remarkable and inspiring character of the physical universe revealed by [science]. (National Academy of Sciences 1999, 7)

Is this your position, Buck?”

“Not a particulary religious person, but it is mine.”

“Ahem. 'particularly...'”

“It is a widely circulated fallacy that there was a transcript of the Scopes trial.”

“Phaed, no, that is not my position, at least not at the present time.”

“Violin, there was a transcript at the Scopes Trial but it was made of chocolate and has since been eaten.”

“I'm sorry then, what is your contention in regard to evolution?”

“I wonder if lyra will be called as an expert witness?”

“Hey, if you want to believe that the earth is only 6,000 years old, or that donkeys fly around the block on Thursday night, that's just fine... The problem arises when you try to teach it in public schools in MY state. Believe me, you WILL have a problem. And so will the politicians who support you.”

“I think aliens placed seeds on this earth which grew into what we now call Bigfoot, which now secretly guards civilization.”

“You mean that donkeys DON'T fly around the block on Thursday night??? Damn!”

“Tilt, I have no idea what you're tawkin' bout? 6,000 year old earth? Are you talking about Creationism? I am certainly not advocating teaching any religious doctrine in a science class at all. Where'd that come from?”

“donkeys only fly at midnite on the 6th wednesday of the month that begins with letter "t"”

“Well shucks, there goes another pet dogma into the dumper...”

“Phead, I just think, in the name of science, that all the data should be studied and not just one theory pushed at the exclusion of others. Students should be allowed to make up their own minds on competing scientific theories of origins.”

“way to go with the far-left knee-jerk reaction, tilt. i would expect nothing less from you.”

“Doesn't flying donkeys sound ridiculous? So would have flying fish eons ago. Don't rule out flying donkeys. Of course for millions of years they'll hafta put up with useless little flaps on their sides, but do not fear, they will eventually form wings and fly.”

“I am certainly not advocating teaching any religious doctrine in a science class at all. Where'd that come from?"

Buck
04:26:40 PM



It's the Subject of the Thread. Check page one; buy a clue....”

“Of all the big issues facing this country, how in God's name does this crap get on the national agenda? Is it the politicians or who? Did you see what's her name accept her Golden Globe the other night? I don't see how gay marriage, evolution, Michael Jackson, the ball player accused of rape, or any of this other bs rates air time.”

“Hey Tilt, I thought I was on your "ignore" list! Ha ha!”

“Buck - I meant incorporation of viral DNA into humans

"Flap evolution" You have a male who gains this mutation. This male passes the beneficial mutation along to offspring and so forth. Thats all you need. How many failures have there been? probably countless. All mutations occurr from chance. Can they occurr more than once in a single population? Of course.

As for transitory species - what's the difference between the fossil of a "flying" squirrel and a black squirrel? Flaps don't fossilize.

Tomorrow, perhaps, I can give you living examples of the eye developing. There are many creatures with partially developed eyes. Of course your defense might be "but they are different species". That'll be my point.

Maybe I'll have time to attack "Intelligent design" and I forgot the relevence of the Monkey trial. Can someone explain?”

“Of course for millions of years they'll hafta put up with useless little flaps on their sides, but do not fear, they will eventually form wings and fly

This is a misconception. I don't want to bother with spellig it out for you, though.

Phead, I just think, in the name of science, that all the data should be studied and not just one theory pushed at the exclusion of others. Students should be allowed to make up their own minds on competing scientific theories of origins.

Sorry, but evolution, according to the vast majority of trained scientists (yes ther are exceptions) stands up to scrutiny and correctly predicts a number of scientificly provable facts (try finding a horse fossil in jurassic deposits, and you'll see my point). While many may see the splendor and diversity and beauty of life around us and surmise that this can only be the result of an intelligence greater than ours, there is no empirical data to warrant teaching it as science. It is religion.

While man may have a hard time allowing for the idea that we may, indeed have sprung as order from chaos without divine intervention, and by sheer chance, we can't call faith science.

I'm not unsympathetic to the idea of intelligent design. My personal beliefs may even come nearer this than you might think. That said, lack of evidence against is not evidence of.”

“I certainly didn't say useless. Why twist my statement, Buck? or did you mis read it?”

“That's a classic illustration of WHY, Buck...... It's just one load of nonsensical crap after another. It doesn't matter WHAT the subject happens to be; it's always the same.”

“As for transitory species - what's the difference between the fossil of a "flying" squirrel and a black squirrel? Flaps don't fossilize.

Flaps may not fossilize, but all those millions of years of transitonary bones in wings of the transitionary species for flight should fossilize, no? Why don't we see all kinds of fossils of partially developed bones
for wings, as example?

With mutations, if I mutate and form a third arm, why is this not passed down? The genetic code within species is actually quite defensive.

While many may see the splendor and diversity and beauty of life around us and surmise that this can only be the result of an intelligence greater than ours, there is no empirical data to warrant teaching it as science. It is religion.

I agree, Phaed, we can't bring a specific religion into the science class in public schools. But intelligent design is not based on warm fuzzy feelings about how pretty things are. It is based on science just the same.

It could also be argued in the same way that evolution should not presuppose there is no intelligence behind the natural order of things. We should not automatically exclude intelligence behind what we see, nor should we automatically say there is. We should let science be science and let the chips fall where they may, excluding no outcomes in the process. Isn't that what pure science is all about? Saying there is no intelligence is just as biased as saying there must be intelligence.”

“bearmagnent, sorry, I'm lost on what you said I twisted?”

“That's a classic illustration of WHY, Buck...... It's just one load of nonsensical crap after another. It doesn't matter WHAT the subject happens to be; it's always the same

Tilt, perhaps we have differing worldviews that are so opposite that we disagree on just about every subject? I'm okay with it. I'm not sure why you always seem to upset and pissed off about differing opinions?”

“This would be a perfect time to break out the Stones song, "Monkey Man", and crank it up to eleven.
All Buck's friends are junkies, (not really)”

“I'd prefer the song, "Hey Hey We're The Monkees".”

“Transitory Bones - hands in bats. Hands in whales. More later.

What you twisted: Useless flaps.

Third arm: I never said you could mutate a full fledged arm. The mutation, if beneficial, has a great chance to be passed on.

Our DNA is defensive? No. The more the better. This is why you can find retroviruses in our genome. This is why chickenpox and herpes is incorporated into our genome. It's not a one way "attack" that's a misconception. The immune system is ultra defensive because it doesn't want anyone else moving in. That would be competition for our flora which also had to "move in". A virus is looking for a home. Our genes are looking for more raw material.”

“I should add that chicken pox & herpes is dormant when its incorporated into our DNA and only manifests itself, i.e. is "freed" from our genome when/if the person becomes immunoincompetent. It is a transitory evolutionary step of incorporating new raw material.”

“His peas, Her peas, who cares?”

“I care if they're not my peas, Dammit!”