Single wall tents & condensation

“As I try to narrow in on a single wall tent for under $1 Million, many of the reviews posted complained of tremendous condensation for many of them, especially the under $200 variety. Trailtrekker has a Waypoint 1 but only had one incident with condensation out of 20 nights. I suspect that humidity is the major player here and that those in high humidity areas live with condensation as a real problem.

However, here in the Southern California mountains where it is relatively low humidity, I don't hear or see much about condensation. In the Sierras I have only had one problem, but that was with rain and my Eureka Zephyr which did not have a full rain fly.

So, my conclusion for now is that single wall tents of the cheaper variety can work OK in dry climates, but can suck in humidity. What do other people think?”

“Ok here is what I have learned about the single wall tents.


1.They work great in low humid places.

2.They should be used as a 4 season tent.

3.DO NOT USE THEM FOR REG BACKPACKING.


I hope that helps ya.

8)”

“Mike - you confused me. By four season, do you mean only use them in winter? Why not use it regularly if I live in low humidity year round?”

“Well I do not mean to mix ya up but if you backpacking in places that have very low humidity all year then a single wall tent would work great.


8)”

“OK. Thanks.”

“OK. Thanks.”

“No problem.


8)”

“3.DO NOT USE THEM FOR REG BACKPACKING.

MIKE! you recommended me getting the eureka zues :P LOL that's what I use now.”

“Yes, I believe humidity has a lot to do with condensation in any tent. I've had condensation in all the shelters I've owned. I've even had it on the underside of the tarp with my hennessy hammock.

I'm always surprised that there's condensation on the inside of my freestanding dome tent also...it has a rainfly. I've pitched my silnylon tarptent so that there was adequate ventilation and rarely do I not get condensation.

The meeting of warm/cold air causes this moisture...like my warm breathing in a cold tent. I think the weather/temperature has to be perfect for there to be no condensation.

I think Phil is correct though...in the dryer climates you'll have less problems with it. A single wall tent should work fine...but there are those occasions where a tent with rainfly is awesome...for example, those nights when you don't need the rainfly and you can stare at the stars all night.

:)”

“Phil, I concur with MSDhiker.

Some mornings here in the SE I get condensation on my Henry Shires TarpTent no mater what I do and it is the best single wall design going. Most times condensation is no problem.”

“Phil- One more comment on the Waypoint- I haven't had it out in snow, i.e.- winter conditions, mostly because I am a cold weather wimp and the Waypoint will not hold in much body heat due to the mesh screen around the bottom. I am a cold sleeper and think 60 degrees is sort of chilly. I usually take my Marmot Eclipse for light snow conditions (has fly and less room -3 sq feet less- than the Waypoint and weighs just over 4lbs) because it holds in the heat a bit better.
Just got back from a little backpack in to Mecca Hills and once again the Waypoint proved itself a convenient little tent. Didn't encounter any real weather, but the ease and lightness of the tent is always a pleasure!
Oh and I wanted to tell you that you could get away with four stakes and a rock in mild weather.”

“I've got a single wall I like to take when I want to go really light. It does get some condensation, even at 10,000 feet, but the lightweight factor makes up for it. I've got a Kelty Dart2 which could hold two (very good friends) and weighs less than 3lbs. It has a huge vestiblue which has come in pretty handy and I felt pretty comfortable stranded in there because of weather. We took a single wall tent last winter in the Yellowstone backcountry- it came with his sled, some kind on military design. It iced up quite a bit inside, but it was so cold (0) that we just shook the ice off.

Kelty has a new version of the Dart --the AERO! of all things-- that is better vented.”

“I find my Eureka Zeus has a lot of condensation, but I live with it in warm weather. A hint for it: where the vent flaps pull out on each sidewall to be staked? I use a small 6-inch tiny bungee to connect the tent flap to the stake. It gets it off the ground. And remember: you should stake it so the door is into the wind. That helps a bit.”

“...furthermore, I've gotten a load of krap from people about the Dart, but it packs down to about the size of a volleyball, the poles break down so small I can put them in the pack (fly)rod case and it has a nice little moon roof you can open! Besides looking for something a little better ventilated, I'd get something that really packs down small.”

“Lizs, I get condensation just driving through where you live!”

“For my normal local forest service volunteer stuff I think the light weight is important. Maybe in the Sierras I will stick with my Inyo 2.”

“aero - Can you sit up in the Dart? I'm going to check out the AERO.

I think someone on SierraPalooza had a dart. Not sure who.”

“I've had condensation on the underside of a 'fn tarp pitched 2 feet off the ground. Managing condensation is more important to me then avoiding condensation, because humidity is so high around here that condensation is unavoidable. My Tarptent Cloudburst will on occasion get condensation, but does a good job at keeping it away from me (tall walls, curned design makes water drip harmlessly out the mesh on the sides, etc).”

“Did DeoreDX mean curved... or.... CORNED???! *GASP!!!*

P.S. Aero, you're right on getting condensation just driving through. lol”

“It seems to me you're always going to have condensation in anything other than maybe near desert conditions. I would think that as long as it isn't literally dripping off the ceiling, it could probably be tolerated. I defer to others with way more experience.”

“I have noticed that tents around here are geting more and more screen. Bean's has updated many of it's backpacking tents, and they all are lighter, and mostly screen under the fly. The Rock 22 we chose is almost all screen under the fly, and there are always two of us in there. Plenty dry in the tent, even though we have to turn the fly over on a bush to dry it off.”

“is like death & Taxes. Ya can't avoid it.
I get condersation when using a tarp. I can go completely without a shelter and guess what? I get condensation on the outside of the bag above my chest.
It still cracks me up seeing people constantly buying new high $ tents to beat something that can't be beaten.”

“If you don't want condensation to deal with in the morning you can do 2 things.

#1 Only camp in dry climates.
#2 Don't breathe.”

“#1 is not feasable for me. I'll give #2 a shot my next camping trip.”

“water condenses on the inside of shelters

get use to it”

“I don't feel that you will ever get a "system" that completly eliminate condensation. The game is to keep it at a mangable level. This past weekend, my Akto had boo koo amounts of condensation, but it was frozen to the inside pasrt of the tent. I can live with that. Both vents were open on either end and I had the vestile door half zipped down, still tons of water. Now, winter is one of the only times I get this amount of water. Spring/Fall, I have no problems. Summer, I use a different tent.”

“My husband and I use a Megamid which is a single wall, floorless, pyramid style tent. We use it in the humid Southeast year-round and the only times we've had problems with excessive condensation (anything severe enough to cause droplets to form) has been when we've staked the bottom down too tight to the ground; when we've forgotten to open the peak vent; and in a steady, heavy rain.

I also have a mesh-bodied tent with a rainfly. If there's condensation on the fly, it drips down into the tent through the mesh. I used this before we got married and we still use it ocasionally. Also, my son uses it whenever he goes out with us. Again, the only time there's a condensation problem is when the fly has been staked too close to the ground all the way around or in very prolonged periods of heavy rain.

They both will occasionally get a fine coating of moisture on the inside but I don't consider condensation to be a problem unless my gear (sleeping bag!!!) gets wet.

The best way to prevent condensation in both seems to be to make sure the airflow inside of the tent is going from low in the rear to high in the front. It's pretty simple and once I got into the habit of staking them out that way it became automatic and I don't even think about it anymore. We also don't have condensation problems anymore.

Hope this helps.”

“skully, that is true with airflow, however it depends on tent design. Like I said, with my Zeuz Exo, you need the door of the tent into the wind. The air can come in and then disperse out both the side vents, which are low and as you said, I stake the vent flaps up off the ground.

I also feel condensation might have something to do with respiration rate and whether or not a person normally sweats. I SWEAT! (there I said it). So perhaps I have worse condensation problems with tents than those who don't sweat so much.”

“Well actually lizs, that was my point as far as both tent design and staking skills. Both the tents that I use were under $200 and both were well-designed for proper airflow and cross-ventilation. And both will develop condensation issues if not properly staked out.”

“skullcap,
MegaMid how do you deal with the mosquitos during the summer? I know you can cover yourself with DEET but how about the noise? Earplugs?

Lizs,
I'm no expert but doesn't the most typical method of pitching a tent assume that the door will be facing downwind? I want the low end of my tent to be facing into the wind in order to minimize wind shear loading. Opening up the tent to the breeze may help prevent condensation by it also makes it into a "tumbleweed".

Phil,
Good discussion going here. I went up to my favorite outfitting store to see if they had a Waypoint1 I could set-up. Unfortunately they were sold out. The salesman was very knowledgeable and one thought he had was to buy the Waypoint2 as a method of minimizing condensation. Because of the low RH in the sierra and because the weights are attractive, a Waypoint is probably a very good tent for you.

For me it's a little bit harder in that it is very humid here. The mountains of North Carolina (60 miles from my home) get 80-100 inches of rain a year. That's why there are 31 species of salamander and everything is so green! Nevertheless the Waypoint1 or 2 might be ok for me if I pick my weekends. Before I make up my mind I really need to see the MSR Hubba and the Big Agnes Seedhouse Superlight. It's going to be interesting but I have some time before I buy.”

“Aaaaah Solly, I was thinking tents might vary in how the airflow goes through them. But what you and Skully say makes sense. I don't even think of top venting on my Zeus Exo cuz it is so minimal. BUT I guess there is some... very little.

Also, I never would previously have thought about which direction to pitch my tent. DOH!! Just not something I thought about. I'm always thinking more about view and how is it easiest to get out (OK, I s'pose I could take ALL THOSE THINGS into account.)”

“Liz, condensation is from water vapor as you exhale, nothing to do with whether you sweat or not.

Trouble with having the tent door facing the wind is wind and heavy rain. Every time you get in or out of the tent you will soak the inside.

I would rather have the door downwind and deal with a little condensation. My compensation is protection from the tent on entry and exit, and a dry tent floor (for a floorless tent,..dry(er) ground).”

“Lizs,
Sometimes the places you have to pitch a tent are so limited that you have no choice. I say go with your instincts ( pick the best view) and don't pay us engineers any mind. We over analyze everything, prepare for worst case senarios, build in safety factors of 1.5 and wind up with packs that weigh 60 lbs! And it's killing us.
I gotta amend my ways.

But then too, if everyone is going the Ray Way who is going to carry the frying pan so we can cook some trout up there? Tell me that people!”

“Thanks for the feedback.

Sol, I've heard the Waypoint 2 is vented better than the Waypoint 1, but then the weight is back up a bit...but still under 3 lbs. That would make up for the missing space from lack of a vestibule.

Even in the dryness here, I do have to let my rainfly dry before I pack it. However, I can't remember ever having a problem I noticed (except the rain in the Sierras).”

“Phil,
There would be plenty of space for your pack in the Waypoint2. Tell us about that ULA P2 you're getting. I looked it up and saw it but not sure about the lightweight hipbelt and shoulder padding.”

“Sol - Look at the earlier posts on that thread. That is where I got my info, plus it was written up in Backpacker magazine. It has a base weight of under 2 lbs, and then you can add options. I posted my list of options. Still haven't seen one yet!!”

“Speak for yourself, this engineer doesn't leave home with more then 25lbs on his back in the dead of winter.

Lizs is obviously not a southern belle, the do't sweat. they Glisten.”

“Phil,
I see the P-2 thread now.

DeoreDX,
How much weight on a 7 to 10 day trip with no resupplies?

Where are you hiking?

Will 25 lbs. qualify you as a ultralight hiker? Would Ray approve?”

“Never been on a 7-10 day trip. Most I ever go is 3-4. Three weeks of vacation is not enough time to spread out between all my different hobbies. I'd rather go on three or four 3 day trips then one 7-10 day trip. IMHO of course. Hike mostly in the SE. I don't consider myself ultralight, but I do know I find myself enjoying the hike much more with less then 25lbs on my back.

”

“DeoreDX,
Well I can agree with you on the part about enjoying the hike more with less than 25 lbs. on your back. And 25 lbs. for that amount of time seems reasonable. But I have mixed feeling about all this superlight stuff. I know people are using it successfully but sometimes it seems foolhardy. It doesn't take much and you could be in serious trouble (i.e. hypothermia). Just my opinion but I wonder sometimes.”

“Phil,

My two cents on single walls. Where you tend to hike, I'd say that a single wall would work quite well. The key thing to look at is the ventilation a given tent offers. Some tents are ventillated quite well, others are pretty poorly ventillated.

My wife and I looked at the waypoints last year, but decided that they were insufficiently vented for us to consider, but of course we hike in the PNW which is suffers from higher humidity than you get in So. Cal. We also didn't like the lack of a vestibule in a tent so small. Of course the vestibule is a weight trade off.

I know several people who backpack year round in humid areas (coastal Pacific North West and Solitary Hiker's neck of the woods) with single-wall tents. Most of them have ordered varieties of the Itegral Designs MK-series tents, and had a second door added so they can open the second door to increase airflow through, minimizing condensation. Again, though, it's a trade-off in terms of weight.

Good luck in your tent hunting.

Man a ULA pack and ultra-light tent...that's going to be a bit different from you with the external frame pack!”

“DeoreDX,
Can you give me a rundown on what was in that pack and the approximate weight of each item? Was it the one for the 3-4 day winter trip?”

“marmot - SierraPalooza killed me. We went cross country and I was top heavy with my external frame.

I also figured out the my hip belt was riding uneven on my hips due to a physical condiditon in my back. That caused the pack to teter every time I took a step. That takes energy. Getting the pack off of my hips as much as possible should improve my energy usage.

By boots were worn out last year as well and I couldn't go up or down hills well. I fixed that already.

My goal is to reduce my base pack weight by 10 lbs.”

“Marmot we won't recognize the man. Phil will wind up without his beard and body hair just to cut down on weight and reduce wind drag. LOL! Juss fooling Phil. I'm learning on this thread so maybe there is hope for a an old geezer like me.”

“skullcap,
MegaMid how do you deal with the mosquitos during the summer? I know you can cover yourself with DEET but how about the noise? Earplugs?


LOL solitary hiker! Actually, I do carry earplugs so I can sleep when hiking with others. Good earplugs make good neighbors so long as someone doesn't fall on my tent. I have mosquito netting for the bugs. It's also pyramid shaped and floorless. It hangs from the center peak and ties out to loops on the seams and then we tuck it in under our air mattresses--between the mattresses and the small ground cloth we put under them. Works like a charm.”

“I hear ya, Phil. The wife and I have been on a quest to reduce some weight ourselves. We bit off a chunk of the wonderland in '01, and went way too heavy.

we're slowly learning and adjusting.”

“Gear List from Pine Mountain Jan 16-18

This was a two night trip covering 23 miles with a total of 3300ft elevation gain over the course of the trail (relativly easy going). Temps got down into the mid 20's on Friday, and we had some ahrd rain on Saturday. I only had ~3lbs of food. for the weekend. We started after lunch so we ate lunch off the trail, and we only had a 2 mile hike out Sunday so we only had a small breakfast Sunday. 22lbs w/o water. There is plenty of water on the trail this time of year I I only carried 1-2 liters of water at a time (~26lbs with 2l of water). My partner and I share some community gear. He carried my Snow Peak Gigapower and fuel, and I carried the community tarp and filter. Only thing I left off the list was 3oz of alcohol and a pepsi can stove I threw in at the lest second as a backup stove.”

“DeoreDX,
Thanks for the list. Very thorough and you covered first aid and water filtering too. Where did you get that digital scale? I think that's the first thing I'm gonna have to buy.”

“The hanging fish scale is $25-30 from Wal Mart and weights up to 50lbs. It's not 100% accurate but it gives me a good guesstimate at the finished weight. It's usually within an ounce of my accurate digital scale. WalMart also carries a nice 5lb Digital scale in their kitchen department. My hiking partner carries a more complete first aid kit, mine is pretty small containing just a little bit of ointment, bandaids, etc for minor cuts and such. When I go solo I carry a heavier 8oz first aid kit with more gause, tape, etc.”