John Kerry for President!!!!!

“The standing congressmen break the ties, not the incoming candidates.”

“Bbw!

I don't think that's true. The electoral college meets in December. The votes then are counted in Congress after the first of the year. The new Congress is effective on the first of the year. So the new Congress votes.

Of course, the complicating factor is that the old President and VP are still in office until later in the month. So, a tied Senate would be broken by Cheney.

If that happened, maybe we'd get some neat procedural trick to keep the Senate from meeting until Cheney's VP mandate ran out. Would that mean no Vice-President?”

“The quorum in the Senate is, apparently, 51. So, my question is: If the Senate tied 50-50 and the electoral college tied 269-269, both within the realm of possibility this year, could the Democrats spend January in Toronto and wait until Cheney's mandate ran out to gridlock the U.S. Senate?

Also, I ran into a little tidbit. Apparently, in 1988, the U.S. Capitol police dragged Bob Packwood into the Senate feet first at one in the morning to establish a quorum.

Dudes! There would be a nationwide manhunt to arrest the Democrats.”

“The libs views on Iraq, as evidenced by RL posts are completely unbeleivable. Why don't we go back in time, and devote all of our resources to getting the people who attacked us instead of going after a ruthless dictator who kills his own people, didn't directly attack us, and doesn't represent an immediate threat to our security at home?”

“I can see it now... an APB out on all liberals. Dead or alive.”

“RL !

Great theory! That's one we studied in Poli Sci over the summer, and you've hit everything on the head correctly!

I heard Mexico is nice that tikme of year. Really, the Dems could pull a fillibuster for that time period. Would THAT be something?

I'd go for a Bush/Edwards ticket. Has a nice ring to it!

Arc - DOOD! Where's yer funny bone man?!?! Is it in the shop?”

“Those poor liberal's who said the gallup poll was proof that Bush got little or no convention bounce are in for an ugly shock when the new poll is released tommorow.”

“Which poor liberals would that be?

The poll released on NPR today told of a story of a lost bounce. I just looked at gallup and for tomorrow, it should that Bush had Wis, Kerry has Michigan and it was a tie in Minn. BTW that Wis is within the margin of error.

I look forward into finding out of what you speak.

Till the morrow!”

“"Two national polls on Thursday showed the race between President Bush and Democrat John Kerry deadlocked again as Bush's convention bounce faded, although the president has made headway in key swing states.
In polls certain to buoy the spirits of anxious Democrats, the Pew Research Center and Harris Interactive found equal levels of support for the two White House contenders as Kerry's support rebounded from the withering attacks he faced at the Republican convention that ended on Sept. 2.
The new surveys followed two other polls in recent days, by Investor's Business Daily and a Democratic group, Democracy Corps, that found the race essentially even again, just as it was for months before the two parties held their nominating conventions."”

“polls, what ever you choose.”

“"I look forward into finding out of what you speak.

Till the morrow!"

laqtis
11:20:31 PM
09/16/04

Gallup just released Bush 55 Kerry 42. 13 points is a big lead.”

“"The libs views on Iraq, as evidenced by RL posts are completely unbeleivable. Why don't we go back in time, and devote all of our resources to getting the people who attacked us instead of going after a ruthless dictator who kills his own people, didn't directly attack us, and doesn't represent an immediate threat to our security at home?"
Bison
10:48:50 PM
09/16/04


I'm not sure, but are you suggesting that we should not be looking at out immediate past in the context of making a decision about our vote? Or are you saying that it's unbelievable not to attack Iraq under false pretenses and alienate most of the world? Please clarify.

BTW, RL is hardly a liberal, and if you're so inclined to think so, you're more of a wingnut than I am.”

“I'm saying that if we had not removed a rutheless dictator who did not directly attack us, slaughtered his own people, and didn't represent an immediate threat to us, but instead concentrated all of our efforts on going after the people who did attack us, we would live in a vastly different and far more dangerous world.”

“ANYBODY BUT BUSH

thats my motto”

“Sorry laq, I thought Nigal and I tag-teamed pretty well on that threat-oil thing. I can't always be funny. Sometimes I'm not funny and sometimes I try and fail miserably.



"Now the UN won't help."

reformed lurker


Oh man, Ya gotta love that post. What are you referring to lurker? Bosnia, Rwanda, Afghanistan, Sudan, ... Kerry and his supporters keep referring to the UN as having been the answer. IDIOCY!!! The UN is a toothless and corrupt political entity.

After looking at those Sudanese refugee camps, I kept thinking that France could send them perfume to help with what probably is a bad BO problem. Just like the perfume they sold to Iraq during the UN’s famous “food for oil” program.”

“ARLINGTON, VA – Former Senator Bob Dole issued the following statement:

"As Chairman of the Bush-Cheney Veterans Coalition, and as a veteran, I call on John Kerry to demand that MoveOn.org take down their ad depicting a defeated American soldier.

It's one thing to debate whether we should take the fight to the terrorists, but depicting an American soldier in effect surrendering in the battle against the terrorists is beyond the pale.

I cannot believe that John Kerry, who reminds us daily of his Vietnam service, would possibly approve the disgusting and demoralizing portrayal of American soldiers fighting for us in Iraq, Afghanistan and around the world.

John Kerry has raised doubts about our troops' ability to maintain security as well as Iraqi's ability to decide their own future through elections. He has called the allies in Iraq "window dressing." This is all reminiscent of his appearance before a Senate Committee in 1971 where he suggested with nothing but second hand information American GIs were committing atrocities and war crimes of the worst kind in Vietnam.

This defeatist attitude undermines the great progress and sacrifices of our men and women in the military and the contributions of our allies who are fighting against terror and standing up for freedom around the world.

The politics of pessimism that is being pursued by John Kerry and the extreme liberals demonstrates they are consumed by the past with nothing to offer but attacks on the President's agenda for creating a safer world.

John, say it isn't so and denounce this latest effort to divide Americans"”

“arc - I guess a joke that has to be explained is not a goot joke.

I was pointing out the ironic/hpyrocritical additude that the US has against the UN. We (Saddam and the US) share/d the same view point about them, but in our case, we just used the UN to get Saddam.


Say what ya will about the UN. Just 10 years ago, they we a vital force during the first Gulf war. By us underminding them, we have weaken that IGO and have made them uneffective by that action. It's real arrogant and, yes, dumb, for us to be chitting on them. I agree that I too am sick and tired of being the world cop, but I remember *back then*, the right (when I was apart of it) saying it was our duty as the lone super power. Now, just a decade removed, we've made them ball-less. Everything that has been built up through 20 years of STRONG foreign policy, has been crapped down the drain in less than 2 years.

Yep, nothing is being deon in Sudan because we've got our d!ick in two holes at the moment. Does the UN have the resources tro deal with it? Nope. Wy can't they do anything? Too much bickering amoung themselves, because the mother hen is not there anymore. I have a real problem when people in this country don't bother to concider how are actions affect the rest of the world. We have went from being a world leader, to world cop, to world bully and it will bite us in the ass with this kind of additude. In addition, we haven't fought a good scale war in over 50 years. All we've been doing to beating up on the little, *easy* countries out there. Sounds like a bully to me....

Our lack on consistancy fuels the fire of terrorism for decades to come. Hey! I'm not saying that we should bow to anyone -- we never have! What I am saying is that we just lost a major resource in our fight against terror. We're going to go broke trying to fight this thing without other countries troops to lean on.”

“"I'm saying that if we had not removed a rutheless dictator who did not directly attack us, slaughtered his own people, and didn't represent an immediate threat to us, but instead concentrated all of our efforts on going after the people who did attack us, we would live in a vastly different and far more dangerous world."
Bison
06:30:50 AM
09/17/04


So the world is safer because we destabilized Iraq, allowed Ahmed Chalabi to spy for Iran in the inner circle of presidential advisors, showed the world pictures of Americans humiliating arab prisoners, killed 30,000 or so Iraqi civilians, left the Afghanistan job unfinished, and set a precedent of unilateral preemptive military action against international law.

Huh. It's hard to argue with that concept.”

“Damn, and I thunk my posts were stupit...”

“So the world is safer because we destabilized Iraq, allowed Ahmed Chalabi to spy for Iran in the inner circle of presidential advisors, showed the world pictures of Americans humiliating arab prisoners, killed 30,000 or so Iraqi civilians, left the Afghanistan job unfinished, and set a precedent of unilateral preemptive military action against international law.

Huh. It's hard to argue with that concept."

Phaedrus
08:43:35 AM
09/17/04

Oh you want to talk about Iraq, I was talking about Hitler. It's a shame we had to kill hundreds of thousands of civilians to get rid of Hitler, but maybe you'd like to have those civilians back, along with him.”

““showed the world pictures of Americans humiliating arab prisoners”

Something I find funny about the whole prison scandal and how liberals try to use it as a strike against the Bush admin is that because of Kerry’s admitted war crimes he wouldn’t even be qualified to be a guard at Aubu Grabe.

Yep, that who I want in charge of the entire military.”

“Sen. Chuck Hagel (Neb.) joined a small, but growing, chorus of GOP voices sounding grave concerns about Iraq, comments that tend to support Kerry's view. "We've got to be honest with ourselves," Hagel said. "The worst thing we can do is hold ourselves hostage to some grand illusion we're winning. Right now, we are not winning. Things are getting worse."”

“Oh you want to talk about Iraq, I was talking about Hitler. It's a shame we had to kill hundreds of thousands of civilians to get rid of Hitler, but maybe you'd like to have those civilians back, along with him."
Bison
09:21:12 AM
09/17/04

Oy.

If you'd care to debate the present realities rather than demonstrably invalid analogies to WW2, I'd be happy to go into it.

The nazi germany/iraq comparison makes you look hysterical.”

“Hagel is certainly correct, but what do you propose we do mtnsteve? is that a reason to get out, no. Is it an indication that we shouldn't have gone in the first place, no. Guess what when you have a war there are going to be bad periods and good periods on the road to accomplishing the goal that goes for life in general, you don't choose not to do something that is right just because there will be setbacks, you don't discontinue doing what's right when you come to those setbacks. You evaluate, adjust and move on.”

“. You evaluate, adjust and move on."
Bison
09:36:36 AM
09/17/04


FLIP-FLOP!!!”

“Does it Phaedrus? please show me where my analogy is invalid.

Did we send forces to Europe that could have been used in the Pacific? Yep.

Check

Were there German bombers at Pearl? No.

Check.

Was Hitler a ruthless dictator who slaughtered his own people? Yep.

Check

Did Hitler have the capability to launch a major attack on the United States? Nope.

Check.”

“". You evaluate, adjust and move on."
Bison
09:36:36 AM
09/17/04


FLIP-FLOP!!!"

Phaedrus
09:38:07 AM
09/17/04

That's an amazing definition of flip-flop you have there Phaedy. A flip-flop does not occur when you reevaluate your approach to a stated goal, or even when God-forbid you decide to abandon the goal and move in another direction. The kind of political flip-flop that is germane to the discussion is taking multiple stands on a single issue without ever articulating a stated goal.”

“I'm rapidly losing respect for you, Bison.

This is an analogy that isn't even close to being anything other than electioneering rhetoric, and you're trying to pretend it's valid?

Argh. Germany and Italy declared war on the US first. Japan was an Ally of Germany and Italy. Germany was occupying another country. Germany and the Axis were an obvious threat to the US militarily. The list goes on and on.

It's a piss poor analogy for even a mediocre student of history.”

“My Flip-flop comment was a joke.”

“Phaedrus it is not at all a piss poor analogy in regard to those who feel that the presence of an immediate threat is the only reason to go to war, as a matter of fact the analogy goes straight to the heart of the matter. We could easily have ignored Europe as Germany did not have the capability of launching a major attack on us (and we certainly didn't need a declaration of War from Saddam to understand his belligerence, violating the peace terms from the first war over and over and over again is good enough), and concentrated our power against the Japanese who had already demonstrated the ability to attack us. The Germans just made it easy on us by declaring war, showing their intentions even if they could not be acted upon. Fortuneatly we have people running the gov't now who recognize that threats don't always come from one group but from interrelated groups who may not even be allies.”

“Where are Saddam's U-boats?

Saddam had his political enemies murdered, not a race of people slaughtered wholesale.

If I were a Jew, I would be offended, Bison.”

“Where were Hitler's anti-aircraft shooting at our planes in violation of a signed peace agreement? The argument here seems to be that a rhetorical declaration of war is somehow more egregious than an actual attack. If I were a Jew I'd be offended by those who continually put there head in the sand when it comes to Saddam. If I were a Kurd I'd be even more offended by your comment MarkO.”

“No, Bison. Iraq did not declare war on the US, and from all indications was cooperating for the most part with UN weapons inspectors after they were put back in.

The neocons' influence had predetermined that we would make Iraq out to be a threat to the US, despite whatever inspections or intel showed. The threat was not to the US, but to the neocon agenda of empire. Iraq had to fall in order to facilitate the domino effect (which they, incredibly, still believed in). This was not about our national security in forseeable way.

The hysteria about Saddam giving WMD that he didn't have to Al Qaeda with whom he had no working relationship is as close as anyone has come to showing how this is a matter of national security, and even that has been shown to be deeply flawed.

The analogy to the European theatre in WW2 is silly, electioneering rhetoric. I'm really surprised at you.

Most of the informed right on this board can make a valid argument about hegemony and influence without drawing on the fallacious spectre of nazi germany in doing so.”

“Phaedrus, when are you going to get that the analogy was meant to showcase the ridiculousness of RL's argument, I directed it to him in the post.”

“The argument that Saddam would not have worked with Al Qaeda because he wasn't a fundamentalist simply doesn't hold up. He had already provided material support to fundamentalist terrorists who attacked and killed Americans. It's perfectly reasonable to believe, considering the contacts he had with Al Qaeda, that if he had an opportunity to give them support to attack us, he would have. Fortuneatly we no longer have to face that possibility.”

“Are you referring to Abu Nidal and Abu Abbas?

Pretty weak in comparison to the actions of neighboring countries in the ME. Especially relative to 9/11.

Anyway, we had a good method for verifying that Saddam was not a threat to the US.”

“Phaed...
And that would be what? Weapons inspectors that couldn't find their butt with both hands. And even when the did try, weren't allowed to go anywhere without 4 days notice. Or would it be Saddam's word that he had nothing?

Or do you have ESP? Or what?”

“You might try reading up on what weapons inspectors were accomplishing both after gulf war 1 and before gulf war 2.

If they weren't finding anything at the end, it was because there was nothing to find.

BTW, your 4 days notice is laughable. Seriously, read up a bit.”

“I'm referring to Hamas.

We had a good method, what good method? Inspections that Saddam was constantly disrupting and that our supposed allies (you know the ones that don't go to war with us are the only ones that count right?) were moving toward getting rid of? Yeah great method.”

“I seem to remember that in the short time period inspectors were allowed to do their job, we were watching Al Samoud missiles being destroyed because they went a little further than permitted. Did they miss anything? Guess not.”

“The point isn't whether or not they missed anything, the point is we had every reason to believe that there was a significant chance that they did due to Saddam's interference and in the current climate we can't take chances like that.”

“It's very clear that inspections worked as a method of disabling Iraq from being a danger to the US and Iraq's neighbors.

Hamas: Still very weak in comparison to the support given by other countries.”

“current climate we can't take chances like that."
Bison
11:06:50 AM
09/17/04


Compared to obvious alternative, it was the better chance to take.”

“"It's very clear that inspections worked as a method of disabling Iraq from being a danger to the US and Iraq's neighbors."

It's very clear now that we went in there to find out for ourselves.”

“It was clear to many at the time. Most of those people were accused of being ont he Iraqi payroll or worse.

Scott Ritter was demonized for voicing a dissenting opinion based on fact and reason. Turns out he was right.

I prefer an administration that takes into account factual and serious doubt before committing to a reckless course of action that endangers the lives of so many.

We must agree that there was certainly time to wait. Saddam wasn't going to nuke Tampa anytime soon.”

“Please, If we hadn't acted and there had been any sort of attack you'd be screaming about all the people who, based on factual and serious thought about the matter, thought Saddam still had weapons.”

“Please, If we hadn't acted and there had been any sort of attack you'd be screaming about all the people who, based on factual and serious thought about the matter, thought Saddam still had weapons."
Bison
11:29:29 AM
09/17/04

Maybe. In all honesty, I can't say that for sure, though. Based on the evidence available, I can't say that an attack from Iraq would have been as telegraphed as 9/11 was.

I do know that in the lead up to war, I saw no evidence that convinced me that Iraq was a threat to the US. I cheered for Bush getting the inspectors back in when I believed that was his gambit. I thought it was a brilliant political ploy to mobilize troops and get ramped up inspections going in the wake of the 9/11 attacks. That ended up not being the goal, however, and even though the inspections were working and actually had some teeth, we invaded.

Reckless, especially with the inept manner we conducted our diplomatic relations in the run up to war.”

“"Weapons inspectors that couldn't find their butt with both hands....."

And that would have been Mr. David Kay.....the guy WE sent back in there and the SMAE GUY the Bush people leaned. If you didn't know, Mr. Kay has come out and said NO WAY, did he have them.


Bison - Stop, please just stop. This is not WWII. This is not Vietnam. This is a war the likes we have not dealt with so far. It takes a real man to admit that they are wrong. I'm not suggestion you, but Bush. This revisionist crap is old. If anything, people need to stand up and say *we phukced up, not let's deal with it*. It's a moronic hilltop that the Bush people stand on, when they can't admit that they were WRONG!

Ooooppsss, doesn't cut it, people. The US needs to make up, with proper action, the wrongs that WE have committed. Yes, I said WRONGS. I've said it time and time again: You can't kill the bully in the school yard, just cuz he *might have* hurt someone else, unless you have SOLID proof the bully has a gun, a plan and is about to act on it.

Don't get on my case. This isn't about *If Q had his way, Saddam would still be in power* crap. That's not the point. What I am saying, is that the Admin was WRONG in this action because they didn't think it out all the way through and have a solid pland with solid people in place. No exit plan until we got there is half-assed policy making. You CANNOT make up policy, or a plan for that matter, as you go. You all thought this was going to be a frickin` cake walk and that you'd be singin` the praises of Bush at this point. WRONG! ANd not just WRONG, but just plain old frick stupid. This kind of crap make me SHAMED to be an American.

Thanks a lot, fellas. Let me know when I can return the favor!

It's VERY CLEAR that this Admin has it's head up it's ass, all the while the parrots are chripping along *the worlds a safer place*. I ask HOW? By getting rid of the WMD? There WAS NO WMD! By getting rid of Saddam for killing his own people? Why NOT the dood in Korea instead? Why not Fidel, for letting his people supposedly starve? Saddam was a threat? To WHO? Syria? Jordan? Saudi? What country around them was Iraq threating? Nobody. Oh, sorry, I forgot our butt-buddy, Israel.

Look - you guys can't have it both ways. Everyday, it's a new sugar coat. The ME is going to hell in a hand basket and there is a bunch of people standing around waiting to light the basket on fire.

WHY CAN'T YOU PEOPLE SEE THIS?

I thought Mutt's geo-political prediction was that after the hand over, we would have our forces safely garrisoned and would only be called upon if needed? What happened to that!?!

It is just BEYOND me that lack of *worldly thinking* you Republicans have. You think that the GOD DAMNED world revolves around your ideals and that FORCE is the only way. Well, I tell you this: We've tried it your way and your way blew up in our face. Now, you try and put lipstick on this pig. Problem is - PEOPLE BUY IT!


Unbelieveable!”

“The Administration knew they wouldn't find any WMDs. Their OWN weapons inspector told them so prior to any military action in Iraq.


David Kay, the chief weapons inspector, concluded “I don’t think they existed.” “What everyone was talking about is stockpiles produced after the end of the [1991] Gulf War and I don’t think there was a large-scale production program in the Nineties.”

This is consistent with David Kay’s interim report that concluded that Iraq’ capacity to produce new chemical munitions “was reduced - - if not entirely destroyed” during the 1990 Gulf War, 1998 bombings and 13 years of sanctions and inspections.

Even Donald Rumsfeld Defense Secretary Rumsfeld confirmed “I don’t think we’ll discover anything.”

But who cares. They'd been waiting to invade Iraq for decades.”

“"WHY CAN'T YOU PEOPLE SEE THIS?"

laqtis
12:36:01 PM
09/17/04

Because we're too damn busy looking at reality not some half-baked hindsight fantasy where we pretend like the answers were available to us before action had to be taken.

Please bother to read the thread before taking my WWII analogy out of context, I had some fun needling Phaedrus for that but it's old now.”