John Kerry for President!!!!!

“"So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real, but it is not new."

John Kerry, speech at Georgetown University January 23 2003.

I wonder if all the libs on here are gonna vote for this "liar."”

“Bison,

I would never argue that WMD and Saddam were not a threat.

However, the system put in place after the Gulf War was working. Saddam gave up the WMD and never restarted the program.

Would he have restarted the program without sanctions? Maybe.

So Kerry was correct in saying that the eventual threat was there and not new.

Bush, however, decided to pursue a different policy - war - even though the existing policy - sanctions - was successful.

With as many problems as we have in the world, we don't need to solve nonproblems.”

“So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real, but it is not new. It has been with us since the end of the Persian Gulf War. Regrettably the current Administration failed to take the opportunity to bring this issue to the United Nations two years ago or immediately after September 11th, when we had such unity of spirit with our allies. When it finally did speak, it was with hasty war talk instead of a coherent call for Iraqi disarmament. And that made it possible for other Arab regimes to shift their focus to the perils of war for themselves rather than keeping the focus on the perils posed by Saddam's deadly arsenal. Indeed, for a time, the Administration's unilateralism, in effect, elevated Saddam in the eyes of his neighbors to a level he never would have achieved on his own, undermining America's standing with most of the coalition partners which had joined us in repelling the invasion of Kuwait a decade ago.

If I'm one of the liberals you're wondering about, you can count on me voting for him.”

“And yet he voted for the war resolution.”

“Would you like suryp with your waffle?”

“And if you wanted to give the real context, as to whether or not Kerry believed that Saddam possesed WMD, you would have included the previous paragraph of the speech.”

“In U.N. Security Council Resolution 1441, the United Nations has now affirmed that Saddam Hussein must disarm or face the most serious consequences. Let me make it clear that the burden is resoundingly on Saddam Hussein to live up to the ceasefire agreement he signed and make clear to the world how he disposed of weapons he previously admitted to possessing. But the burden is also clearly on the Bush Administration to do the hard work of building a broad coalition at the U.N. and the necessary work of educating America about the rationale for war.

As I have said frequently and repeat here today, the United States should never go to war because it wants to, the United States should go to war because we have to. And we don't have to until we have exhausted the remedies available, built legitimacy and earned the consent of the American people, absent, of course, an imminent threat requiring urgent action


Are you complaining that he voted for it?

He voted to give the president the unified backing of the senate in the event that war became necessary.

If you're thinking that all liberals are doves in this matter, you're mistaken. Most do, however, demand that war be a last resort.”

“Nigal, would you care to elaborate, or you just in pot-shot mode?”

“Bison, here's a link to the whole speech.”

“It was clear that Bush was going to war when that vote was made.

Any Senator who voted against it would have zero credibility in influencing policy after the inevitable invasion.

This has proven to be true, given what we've seen in the Democratic primary. Dean failed, in part, because he would not have been credible in dealing with Bush's mess.

Kerry made the correct decision. He can remain critical of the administration's position and maintain his credibility as a man to clean up the damage.

Nuance is a beautiful thing.”

“One thing that does irk me somewhat RL is that everyone and I mean EVERYONE was going on the same intell (the EXACT intell that Clinton used in '98 to justify bombing Iraq) yet when it turns up to be bad intell Bush is the grand anis and all the woes of the world are his fault. Yeah, I know, the buck stops with him but the rabid left just sees this as a means to "get the Boogyman". I don't hold Kerry any7 more responsable than I do Bush but when Kerry lies about his position...THAT'S when he loses all credibility with me.”

“Nigal - I respectfully disagree. After 9/11, Bush made "sweaping reforms", or so was the battle cry, in the intell field. That was something he vowed to change, because the claim was that the signals were there, but got lost in the red tape.

Going along with this, why would we rely the very next year on a branch of the Government that was still under re-organization? It was a rush, due to timing. It is also something that I always bring up the fact that the transfer briefing between the two transision teams never fully took place. Again, Sandy Burger is on record, along with others on that team that Condi and Co. were very dissmisive with them and the meeting was brief. Error Bush.

Other take:

Maybe we took for granted what kind of stateman Saddam was/is. Me gets the feeling at times that he dupped us all along, Clinton and Bush and played the world. All of those trucks pulling out as insepctions teams came in were prolly all a hoax! He prolly didn't want to seem weak to his area, that why he played this game.

It would be something in the Arab world, if the US invaded to get rid of Saddam and WMD and couldn't find any. Saddam then puts us in the position of Crusaders!
I think Saddam is a lot smarter than just being some "evil doer". He's prolly a puck of a lot smarter than Clinton and Bush. He palyed them both!”

“Nigal, here's a quote from that same speech:

I have no doubt of the outcome of war itself should it be necessary. We will win. But what matters is not just what we win but what we lose. We need to make certain that we have not unnecessarily twisted so many arms, created so many reluctant partners, abused the trust of Congress, or strained so many relations, that the longer term and more immediate vital war on terror is made more difficult. And we should be particularly concerned that we do not go alone or essentially alone if we can avoid it, because the complications and costs of post-war Iraq would be far better managed and shared with United Nation's participation. And, while American security must never be ceded to any institution or to another institution's decision, I say to the President, show respect for the process of international diplomacy because it is not only right, it can make America stronger - and show the world some appropriate patience in building a genuine coalition. Mr. President, do not rush to war.

As you can see, even with the same ideas about what Saddam might have as far as WMD, Kerry favored a less reckless approach to the use of military force.”

“Going along with this, why would we rely the very next year on a branch of the Government that was still under re-organization? It was a rush, due to timing.”

It wasn’t like we were creating whole new agencies. The CIA was still the CIA and doing what the CIA does. It was just they fell under the umbrella of the new HLS. Intel gathering probably didn’t change one bit except there was a scramble to get more money and resources to the intell community. In the 90s we were replacing humans on the ground with satellites.

I do agree, Saddam was a pla'ya with a capitol PLAY! I don't think either admin thought he was some 3rd world hillbilly.”

“The Rhetorical Question Section (no one has to answer)

Much of the evidence that was presented was the same evidence Clinton used to bomb the hell out of them in 98 (we used more Tomahawks that year than in the whole of the first Gulf War). Where was the hate and cries of foul then? Why no marches with big pictures of Clinton as Hitler? Why is Bush considered Satan for going into Iraq even when he accomplished liberating them but Clinton is “one of the greatest presidents ever” when he accomplished nothing but making rubble?

Answer:

Double standard.”

“Face value on issues is always a dangerous thing. Just saying "Well, Kerry voted for it too!" with out looking at the disclaimer give, like that above, ruins creditiblity.

Also, the Senate was briefed by the same people who supposedly briefed the President. See a trend here?”

“Nigal!

One of the problems is that the U.S. bombed Iraq pretty regularly between the end of the Gulf War and the Iraq War. There was much more interaction there than was reported on the front page of the papers.

These regular bombings were a part of the sanctions regime. Not pretty. However, they did not require a decades-long troop presence on the streets of Baghdad.

And, they worked.

I also remember thinking to myself during the lead-up to the war that the reasons given by the Bush administration for the war were very weak and probably trumped up. Lots of people wrote reams of articles about this at the time.

And I think that the real reason for Bush's actions had more to do with pressuring Saudi Arabia afterwards than anything related to Saddam.

I'm rambling.

The true question for me is one of priorities. Was the relatively remote chance of turning Saudi Arabia more important than keeping pressure on N. Korea? Was the invasion of Iraq more important than rebuilding Afghanistan properly? Was getting rid of Saddam Hussein more important than stopping proliferation of Soviet nuclear material? Was taking Baghdad more important than a lifetime of out-of-control budget deficits?

Were we justified in the invasion? Sure. Saddam is a bad man. Iraq broke its surrender agreement and pulled itself back into a technical state of war. Saddam violated UN resolutions.

However, this war was not a priority for this country. We would have been better off spending our money, political capital and military strength elsewhere.”

“Oh, BTW, Nigal, I thought that Clinton should have been convicted during his impeachment trial.”

“I have yet to see that Kerry lied about his position, either.”

“I don't think it's a double standard. Remember, there was a very long, drawn out thing in Bosina? That took a lot of resourse to deal with, even with our allies. There was all kind of chit going on with that. We had just gotten done when the election came around.

"Where was the hate and cries of foul then? Why no marches with big pictures of Clinton as Hitler?......"

In the Euro streets, this was the case during Bosina. Clinton was painted as a dictator, et al.

Trouble is that Sobo commimted ethnic cleansing during the action. If Bush tires this with Saddam, I don't know if it will be provable. Most are dead.

Would THAT be something IF Saddam got off....WHOA!!”

“The point of my first post was that Kerry had come to the same conclusion about whether or not Saddam had and was pursuing WMD as Bush did, this is in the context of whether or not the President lied. Any discussion about what differences the men held as to what to do about it means nothing as to the question of whether or not the President lied (But has a lot to do with Kerry not understanding why such a coalition could not be put together.)”

“Sorry I left the discussion after my post, I had to get Jimmy Buffett tickets, I carefully synched my clock, and reloaded the page at exactly 10:00:01, I got the best seats I've ever had for Buffett, YEE HAW.”

“In using WMD as a primary cause for war, he lied. It was not, and every thinking person knows that. Especially after inspectors were back in Iraq.

(But has a lot to do with Kerry not understanding why such a coalition could not be put together.)"
Bison
09:45:05 AM


Please tell me why such a coalition could not be put together.”

“I'd like to hear why we couldn't biuld on the succus of the Bosinan war as well. All that diplomancy went down the crapper. The foundation was forged during that war. Things could've been a lot different nowadays.”

“"every thinking person knows that"

That's utterly ridiculous. I'm not gonna go throwing my IQ around here, but let's just say I'm no dummy, Please produce a quote in context (probably the tenth time I've asked) that shows that the President lied about WMD.

What Kerry and apparently all liberals don't understand is that France, Germany, and Russia were exploiting the sanctions regime for economic gain, of course they didn't want war, they were gonna lose money.”

“Sincere belief based on supporting evidence by the way is not a lie. In order to show that the President lied, you will need to show that he knew that Iraq did not possess WMD.”

“Going along with that, they were pissed at Bush for not play ball with them. It goes hand in hand, created by this Adiinastartion.

My borther inlaw is Estonian and both he and my sister lived in Munster for five years. He was ablel to give me great insight on Eurpoe's take on Bush while the eelction was going on. It was hard to find a Euro over there that thought electing Bush was a good thing. Wonder why?”

“Kerry, the meticulously coiffed inheritance-welfare playboy,
professes to be an Everyday Joe, a populist man of the
people. Kerry, the Vietnam "war hero" who shamelessly surrounds
himself with a "band of brothers" at every campaign stop, once
cuddled with Hanoi Jane Fonda and has since opposed nearly every
defense- and intelligence-spending program during his Senate
tenure. Kerry, the self-described moderate whose rise to political
power began under the tutelage of Teddy Kennedy, was recently named
"Most Liberal Senator" by the National Journal, with a composite
score of 96.5. All told, John Kerry's representation of his
record -- his life, in fact -- leaves one longing for a Democrat
candidate with the unimpeachable honesty of Bill Clinton. James Taranto recently dubbed Senator
Kerry "Dukakis without the integrity."”

“You don't get out often, do you?”

“I'm too happy for this stuff today.

Viva Jimmy Buffett (ok but not his politics)

I think I'm gonna go now and strut naked through a crosswalk.”

“Have fun, Bison and be aware of pointy objects!”

“Bison, you don't need a quote from Bush to see that WMD were not the primary cause for war. A look a political and economic interests of the middle east should be enough to make that much obvious. Also, the fact that inspectors were in the country (for which I applauded Bush) made WMD a non-issue in the urgent push for war.

What Kerry and apparently all liberals don't understand is that France, Germany, and Russia were exploiting the sanctions regime for economic gain, of course they didn't want war, they were gonna lose money

What you don't seem to get is that the US is the preeminent economic and military power in the world, and our influence, given time and statesmanship can lead other countries to do our bidding, whatever their side bets are. Our influence is greater than any others. Certainly you don't believe that the best way to win allies was the method the Bush administration chose?”

“he's consummate insider who's acting like an outsider; the Senate's wealthiest member (he married well and his middle name is "Forbes" after all)
who's acting like a homeless advocate; and the terrorism dove
who's taunting our wartime president to "bring it on." Basically, Kerry is running against his own record -- he's against NAFTA but voted for it, he's against the USA Patriot Act but voted for it, he's against Operation Iraqi Freedom but voted for it, etc."

In his now infamous 1971 testimony
before Congress, Kerry said American soldiers were war criminals, claiming they "raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs ... poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged
the countryside of South Vietnam."

Kerry went on: "I personally didn't see personal atrocities
in the sense I saw somebody cut a head off or something like
that. However, I did take part in free-fire zones, I did take
part in harassment and interdiction fire, I did take part in search-and-destroy missions in which the houses of noncombatants
were burned to the ground, and all of these acts, I find out later
on, are contrary to The Hague and Geneva conventions and to the
laws of warfare. So in that sense, anybody who took part in those,
if you carry out the application of the Nuremberg Principles,
is in fact guilty."”

“Strat, you're a liar, again.”

“From his address to congress, 1971:

I would like to talk, representing all those veterans, and say that several months ago in Detroit, we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged and many very highly decorated veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia, not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command....

They told the stories at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country.
”

“America's most liberal senator -- has, over the years, voted against
defense-appropriations bills funding weapons that have proved
essential to U.S. national security, including the Patriot Missile, the Tomahawk cruise missile and the B-2 stealth bomber. Kerry's voting record also shows his support for cutting funding or altogether canceling existing weapons systems such as the M-1 Abrams tank, the Bradley Fighting Vehicle, the Apache helicopter, B-1 Bomber, F-14, F-15, F-16 and AV-8B Harrier. Kerry also voted against the Navy's Aegis Air Defense Cruiser and Trident Missile System for U.S. submarines.


Following Iraq's seizure of Kuwait in 1990, Kerry voted against authorization for the use of force -- which was more than
could be said for Saddam Hussein. In 1995, Kerry was among 29 other
senators who voted against ending the arms embargo against the
Bosnians, even as Slobodan Milosevic escalated his reign of terror. Concerning the authorization for the use of force against Iraq last year, however, Senator Kerry had this to say on 23 January 2003: "Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime ... He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation ... And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction ... So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real...." Kerry now says he believes the war was a mistake, and that he voted to authorize the threat of force, but not the actual use of it.”

“Address your failed attempt to discredit Kerry from his speach and quit sliding from issues to issue.

ANSWER THE PHUCKING QUESTION!”

“It's not his style. He needs to be attacking rather than defending his indefensible leaps in logic and lack of credibility.”

“Does he download this chit from the EIB Netwrok website?

Or

Is he part of a Yahoo Bush Group that gives out talking points!”

“"They don't know John Kerry's record. ... He is the Olympic
gold medalist when it comes to special-interest money. ... I
also think that he is very vulnerable on the issues of national security. If you look at his voting record, it is terrible as far as it comes to national defense and helping fund a good
intelligence unit." --Senator Zell Miller, the Georgia Democrat
who's campaigning against Kerry for a second Bush term


"Other than denoting your disapproval, what does the adjective mean in the phrase 'special interest'? Is the National Education Association a special interest? The AFL-CIO?... Is the National Rifle Association a 'special interest'? Is 'special' a synonym for 'conservative'? ... When you denounce 'lobbyists' do you include those for Planned Parenthood and the Sierra Club? Is
'liberal lobbyist' an oxymoron?... On Jan. 11, 1991, you said that going to war was abandoning 'the theory of deterrence.' Was it not a tad late to deter Iraqi aggression? The next day you
said, 'I do not believe our nation is prepared for war.' How did
unpreparedness subsequently manifest itself? ... On Jan. 22, 1991, responding to a constituent opposed to the Gulf War, you wrote 'I share your concerns' and would have given sanctions more time. Nine days later, responding to a voter who favored the war, you wrote, 'I have strongly and unequivocally supported President Bush's response to the crisis.' Did you have a third position?... You oppose immediate termination of U.S. involvement in Iraq, and you opposed the $87 billion to pay for involvement. Come again? In
1994, the year after the first attack on the World Trade Center,
you voted to cut $1 billion from counter-terrorism activities. In
1995 you proposed a $1.5 billion cut in intelligence funding. Are
you now glad that both proposals were defeated?" --George Will,
"A Few Questions for John Kerry"”

“I think my second thing is the correct one.

You can tell when Strut does the C & P in his posts. Everything is spelled right!


LOL!”

“If you can't make sense, at least keep posting until everyone stops reading!”

“I'm sorry, what did you say?





LOL!”

“just wanted to say that I am endorsing Nader.”

“NA-DER
NA-DER
NA-DER
NA-DER
NA-DER
NA-DER
NA-DER
NA-DER
NA-DER”

“We'll be fighting in the streets
With our children at our feet
And the morals that they worship will be gone
And the men who spurred us on
Sit in judgement of all wrong
They decide and the shotgun sings the song

I'll tip my hat to the new constitution
Take a bow for the new revolution
Smile and grin at the change all around
Pick up my guitar and play
Just like yesterday
Then I'll get on my knees and pray
We don't get fooled again

The change, it had to come
We knew it all along
We were liberated from the foe, that's all
And the world looks just the same
And history ain't changed
'Cause the banners, they'd all flown in the last war

I'll tip my hat to the new constitution
Take a bow for the new revolution
Smile and grin at the change all around
Pick up my guitar and play
Just like yesterday
Then I'll get on my knees and pray
We don't get fooled again
No, no!

I'll move myself and my family aside
If we happen to be left half alive
I'll get all my papers and smile at the sky
For I know that the hypnotized never lie
Do ya?

Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

There's nothing in the street
Looks any different to me
And the slogans are out-phased, by-the-bye
And the party on the left
Is now party on the right
And their beards have all grown longer overnight

I'll tip my hat to the new constitution
Take a bow for the new revolution
Smile and grin at the change all around
Pick up my guitar and play
Just like yesterday
Then I'll get on my knees and pray
We don't get fooled again
Don't get fooled again
No, no!

Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!

Meet the new boss
Same as the old boss”

“must suck to be wrong alla time.....”

“As always RL I thank you for your opinions. I guess what I was wondering out loud is why Clinton was cheered for smacking the mean dog on the nose but Bush is an Ahole for taking the dog to the pound to be put to sleep and solving the problem once and for all.

“Were we justified in the invasion? Sure. Saddam is a bad man. Iraq broke its surrender agreement and pulled itself back into a technical state of war. Saddam violated UN resolutions.

However, this war was not a priority for this country. We would have been better off spending our money, political capital and military strength elsewhere."

I agree 99.9% and that .01% is simply because of my personal distain for sitting around watching the UN not do it’s job for the 13th year. I think part of the reason we were hasty is because we went in to the UN and told them, If you don’t do it we will.”. They didn’t and the ball was in our court. At that point we had to do SOMETHING.”

“I have yet to see that Kerry lied about his position, either."
Phaedrus
09:36:57 AM
03/13/04

I don't know if you call it lying, but Kerry voted for the war and then spoke out against it.

Doing one thing and saying another is a lot like a lie.”

“and I'm sure that you have never made a desession based upon bad info, then relized it was a bad move in your life time, right bacpac?”