The Passion

“I think his last name was Jones or something.”

“I had dinner not too long ago with an ex-boyfriend who is Lutheran. I'm Catholic (still, I guess, I'm not attending a Catholic Church anymore but haven't joined another congegration yet). I was asking him why I wasn't allowed to receive communion at a Lutheran Church (or vice versa - if you're not Catholic and have had 1st Communion, you can't participate at teh Catholic Church either).

He explained it to me in terms of fraternities and sororities (which we were both in in college). We wouldn't let someone participate in the sorority rituals w/o learning the knowledge of our sorority and what those rituals mean. Same thing for communion. Sure, the basic premesis is the same, but each Church has their own meaningful rituals, just like each indivisual greek organization. You have to "belong" to participate, and to participate, you have to know what the organization believes in and is about.

Guess that's my explanation for you're wife's church, Nigal, right or wrong. Moral of the story is I'm now attending a Presbyterian church which allows anyone who accepts Christ as their savior to particpate in their communion ritual.”

“I partake of communion at which ever Church I am attenting at the time. I almost dare them to tell me no.

I have been to Church with almost every major religion in North America, with exception of the Mormans. I feel very uncomfortable with certain teachings of the LDS and therefore, have felt that I would not be comfortable in their congregation.

While I tend to go back to the Methodist Church more and more, it is because I more readily identify with their doctrine.

However, to say one religion or the other is superior is just plain wrong.

To say that one must "fully understand" a particular religion in order to "participate" is even more wrong. It is truly the same God we worship.

However, the belief or failure to believe is somewhat irrelevant in regard to this movie.

It appears to me, IMHO, that this movie is about the extreme punishment of a human being. Whether you believe he was the Christ or not, it doesn't take away from his suffering.

Again, all IMHO. I am seeing the movie tonight. I actually have mixed emotions that involve anxiety, anxiousness, and to some extent, some fear.”

“Chili - Some trepidation about seeing the movie is understandable considering what has been written, but there's no reason for fear. The more I reflect on it the more I want to see it again, soon. maybe tonight.”

“Thanks, bison.”

“Mel's papa believes the holocaust never happened. Facinating.”

“errr.. fascinating”

“Fascistnating???”

“LOL!”

“By Tracy Connor
NEW YORK DAILY NEWS

A week before Mel Gibson's movie about Jesus Christ hits theaters, his father has gone on an explosive rant against Jews - claiming they fabricated the Holocaust and are conspiring to take over the world.

"They're after one world religion and one world government," Hutton Gibson, 85, said in a radio interview.

"That's why they've attacked the Catholic Church so strongly, to ultimately take control over it by their doctrine."

In the interview, Gibson also said Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan should be lynched and called for the government to be overthrown.

The movie star's father has made outrageous statements about the Holocaust and Jewish conspiracies before.

But the timing of his latest comments is certain to fuel the uproar over his son's movie, "The Passion of the Christ," which opens Ash Wednesday.

Some critics say the movie blames Jews for the death of Christ and will provoke anti-Semitism, and they question why Mel Gibson hasn't denounced his father's views.

Hutton Gibson spoke Monday to Steve Feuerstein of "Speak Your Piece!"

Some of his most outrageous rants focused on the Jews exterminated by Adolf Hitler.

"They claimed that there were 6.2 million in Poland before the war, and they claimed after the war there were 200,000 - therefore he must have killed 6 million of them," he said. "They simply got up and left! They were all over the Bronx and Brooklyn and Sydney, Australia, and Los Angeles."

He said that the Germans did not have enough gas to cremate 6 million people and that the concentration camps were just "work camps."

"It's all - maybe not all fiction - but most of it is," he said.

Gibson repeatedly smeared prominent Jews as money-grubbing power-mongers.

"Greenspan tells us what to do. Someone should take him out and hang him."

Mel Gibson's spokesman, Alan Nierob, had no comment on the elder Gibson's tirade.

But Abraham Foxman of the Anti-Defamation League said they were the words of a "classical anti-Semite."

"If it wasn't so sad, it would be funny," he said, adding that he's troubled by Mel Gibson's failure to condemn these beliefs.”

“So a few people document one person being nailed to the cross and it ends up in this book that gets read, rewritten, translated, studied,inteterpeted etc. Do you know how many people were nailed to a cross in those days? LOTs
Its was they did to the enemy whether political, religeous, foreign etc We choose lethal injection, electricution, life in jail. Human nature loves a good death. Lynching, guililtine, stoning, the rack, McDonalds food, Flying planes into Buildings. Hey Enjoy the Movie...your Human”

“C'mon. I respect Mel more for not blasting his deranged father more than I would if he got in a pissing match with his old man.”

“You serious, chili? Even given the circumsances?”

“Circumstances. I can't type today.”

“I have to agree with chili, even under the circumstances, If Gibson wants to keep such a disagreement within his family that's fine. He's aired his own views on the subject which are obviously different than his fathers. It would be a bigger problem if there was actually anti-semitism in the movie.”

“Yes phaedrus, I am serious.

I think the old man should be shot, but I don't think Mel should be forced, nor expected to do it.”

“My old man is 85 and has said that he could never understand the anti-semitism.

He believes that Jews have done right by America.

They are generally about the best behaved ethnic group in the U.S.

I would like to see my dad take on old man Gibson.........in a pissin' contest, of course.”

“Okay. I have a different opinion, and given that he's just made a movie of this sort, I'd think it would be important to publicly state that he disagrees with his father. I have less respect for him that he doesn't, but I'm no authority.”

“Hey, opinions are like #&%!$s, we all have one.”

“Do you know how many people were nailed to a cross in those days? LOTs

Yes, but you know how many were nailed to a cross and died yet rose to life again? One.

As for shooting down Mel for his dad's beliefs, come on! Some folks don't like the "message" so they try and shoot the messenger in spite of the message. Mel did an honorable thing by saying he disagreed with his father but he was not gonna rip his father a new one. I disagree with my dad about some things (he's against the war in Iraq) but I would never publicly denounce my father, for cryin' out loud! It's called respect. You can honor a man without having to honor all his particular views and beliefs. It's a pretty low-blow to try and discredit Mel because of something his dad believes in. At least I think so.”

“Ok, it took me a minute to realize what the Greenspan comment was for. I take it Greenspan is Jewish, therefore, he should be lynched? Jeesh, that's rough!

And, I agree w/ Chili. I respect Mel more that he keeps whatever disagreements he has with his own family members to himself. If he aired it to the world, you'd probably all call it a publicity stunt.”

“I'm sorry, did he say that he disagreed with his father? I must have missed it. If that's the case, I take it back.”

“Oh, and Chili, my #&%!$ stinks less than everyone else's. That's my opinion.

:)”

“Yes, but you know how many were nailed to a cross and died yet rose to life again? One

*groan*”

“Phaedrus, maybe you're not eatin' enough of the right stuff.”

“It may stink less, but there's more of it!!! j/k

I can't recall if he flat out said he disagreed or not. I saw the interview. He was visibly upset when talking about it. I just kind of wonder what all got edited out because he was fine and then you could tell he was pissed when he said that Diane had to leave it alone. She must have hammered on him for awhile.”

“Mutt, I'm groanin' too......”

“Okey doke. If one of my parents were spouting crap like that, I'd lay into them, but probably in private.

In public, I would say that I disagreed strenuously, and leave it at that.

I'll give the guy the benefit of the doubt.”

“Ok, that matter is settled.


Next!”

“Mel's own words from the Diane Sawyer interview on national TV:

"Do I believe that there were concentration camps where defenseless and innocent Jews died cruelly under the Nazi regime? Of course I do; absolutely," he said. "It was an atrocity of monumental proportion."

Asked if the Holocaust represented a "particular kind of evil," he told Sawyer it did, but added, "Why do you need me to tell you? It's like, it's obvious. They're killed because of who and what they are. Is that not evil enough?"

Mel's interview by Diane Sawyer”

“Thanks, Buck.

I put too much stock in the one article.”

“Now could we please get back to the point of the thread, which was, I believe, poking one another with sharp sticks.”

“"Yes, but you know how many were nailed to a cross and died yet rose to life again? One

*groan*

Mutt®, one thing you gotta ponder... if, as nimrod® correctly said, there were lots and lots of people crucified on crosses, WHY is it that Jesus is talked about thousands of years later and still making healdines today, yet all the others who were crucified are nameless and forgotten?

There have been many MANY many people who have claimed to be the "Christ", or messiah, and there have also been many people in hisotry who died on crosses.

What is it about Jesus that makes Him the most influential figure in all of history? Some obscure man from a long time ago in an otherwise insignificant culture, conquered and ruled by the Romans, teaching something that pissed off the local religious elite. But many men have come and gone that taught stuff that pissed off the religious elite. There was obviously something to this Jesus fella that made Him standout. Why?I don't care how much money one has, or influence at a specific time in history, or businesses you had, or countries you ruled, you cannot buy the kind of publicity this humble, poor man from 2,000 years ago in an obscure culture has gotten. Obviously there is something different about Him.

Christ didn't even have that many followers. He had 12 disciples, men of no special influence at the time, and they even scattered after Christ was seized. Heck, they didn't even hardly know what the flip Christ was talkin' about half the time, speaking in parables and crazy sounding stuff. If Christ just simply "died" like so many others have in history, you would have never heard of His name.

Rising from the dead does wonders for One's popularity.”

“Yes, but you know how many were nailed to a cross and died yet rose to life again? One.........."



Make that Three Groans and a BLECH!


How do you know if there wasn't any more?”

“Aw come on, The Beatles were far more influential than that Jesus guy.”

“Yes, the Beatles said, "All You Need Is Love" and then they broke up. :Þ

How do you know if there wasn't any more?

Well then, what are their names? :^D”

“What about Biggus Diccus?”

“How about lookus in mirrorus.”

“The shoal that wrapped Jesus is supposed to have been faked. Did he really rise??? I dunno....I and everybody here weren't there. Maybe somebody (his followers) took down his body and sneaked it away. And a myth was born. Another of my conspiracy theories.”

“Anything can and will happen.”

“Either you believe or you don't.

I really feel no need to defend what I believe. Likewise, I don't see any need for those who don't believe in Christ to explain themselves either.”

“Wow, Buck sounds just like my wife's church's bylaws...”

“I'm not going to the movie--I don't go to very many. The clips on the TV are way too bloody and sicky for me and I already know the story real well having been schooled by those nuns.”

“The argument according to Ted Drange:

My position is that ANB provides good objective evidence for the nonexistence of the God of evangelical Christianity.
To formulate ANB, I first provide two definitions:

The gospel message = the proposition that the universe is governed by a single, supreme deity who sent his only son to be the savior of humans by making eternal life possible for them.

Situation S = the situation of all, or almost all, humans from the time of Jesus of Nazareth (to the present) coming to believe the gospel message prior to their physical death.

Using this definition, ANB may be expressed as follows

(A) If the God of evangelical Christianity (GC) were to exist, then he would possess all of the following four properties (among others):
(1) being able to bring about situation S, all things considered;
(2) wanting to bring about S, i.e., having it among his desires;
(3) not wanting anything else, that conflicts with his desire to bring about S, as strongly as it;
(4) being rational (which implies always acting in accord with his own highest purposes).
(B) If there were to exist a being who has all four properties listed above, then situation S would have to obtain.
(C) But situation S does not obtain. It is not the case that all, or almost all, humans since the time of Jesus have come to believe the gospel message prior to their physical death.
(D) Therefore [from B & C], there does not exist a being who has all four properties listed in premise (A).
(E) Hence [from A & D], GC does not exist.”

“Local news site here
Scroll down and check out the blurb about the Passion. Note the spelling.”

“That example assumes automotons, not beings with free will. I'm not going to debate this since this horse has been beat....not a good example. Anyway, that's just an observation and I'll leave it at that.”

“I don't believe that's the case, dayhiker, but if you don't want to get into it further, that's fine, too.

Personally, I'm of the opinion that reason and God are not necessarily counter-dependent, and existence is not necessarily rational.
The above argument is not mine, and I don't hold to it necessarily, but it seems sound.”

“existence is not necessarily rational, I'll agree to that.”

“By the way, this is a formal debate that is currently ongoing here. Pretty fascinating stuff.

The opposite side is also represented.”