The Passion

“That does look interesting. I'll come back to this after my trip next weekend. I have 3 major and 2 small projects due before I hit the woods. I check into TT for the quick jab and duck back out to get some work done. Sort of a short mental break. I'll read that when I get back from Sipsey. Thanks for the link”

“Mutt®, one thing you gotta ponder... if, as nimrod® correctly said, there were lots and lots of people crucified on crosses, WHY is it that Jesus is talked about thousands of years later and still making healdines today, yet all the others who were crucified are nameless and forgotten?

Well I guess that proves it then. Some people still believe it's true, so that means Jebus rose from the dead. Got it!

What is it about Jesus that makes Him the most influential figure in all of history?

Oh, it wasn't Jebus - it was the religious institution that was created. There's nothing so special about Jebus' message that isn't embodied in other belief systems. What happened was that a group of guys pretty much perfected religion when they invented christianity - no other religion has been so successful at controlling people, recruiting people, brainwashing people, and persecuting people. Once a power base like that is well established, it'll stick around like government, the military, and taxes. And that's why christians loathe science and rationality - it threatens the very tools they use to concentrate power. For example, literal creation has been shown to be impossible when juxtaposed with scientific findings - that opens the door to doubt and questioning, which are the christian elite's worst enemies.”

“"...no other religion has been so successful at controlling people, recruiting people, brainwashing people, and persecuting people."

Yeah, those guys in Afghanistan can't do any of that.”

“Human logic (which represents itself in a necessarily finite context), means nothing when considering the nature of an infinite being.”

“I agree bison. I extend that to language, understanding, teaching and the bible.”

“Human logic (which represents itself in a necessarily finite context), means nothing when considering the nature of an infinite being

Of course this completely invalidates the "free will" christians are so anal about.”

“Yeah, those guys in Afghanistan can't do any of that

Nice try, but I didn't say no one else was capable - it's just that Christianity has obviously been the most successful.”

“Anything involved must be accepted on faith, there is no logical way for me to prove that the nature of God as reflected in the Bible is not the true nature of God. There is also no logical way for anyone to prove otherwise.”

“"Of course this completely invalidates the "free will" christians are so anal about."

Uhh no it doesn't.”

“Yes, logically, there is. read my link.”

“that the nature of God as reflected in the Bible is the true nature of God”

“WAS OBI WAN CANOBI (OLD BEN CANOBI) JEWISH?

(HE'S OUR ONLY HOPE)”

“God wants us to come to Her through free will. Free will by definition embodies logic and reasoning. But if logic and reasoning cannot lead to some understanding of Her, then that leaves us as automatons, incapable of making a free-will decision to come to Her.”

“Geez Phaedrus, I will need a month of free time to read all of that link.

Give me the damn Cliff Notes version please.”

“If I understand the argument here, we don't have to understand the argument, we just have to choose to believe in the Bible and Jesus.”

“Chili:

Yes it is. No it isn't. Yes it is....”

“that logic and reasoning does apply to us in our finite existence. God has set us up in a finite existence that allows free will, But God as an infinite being is seperate from that.”

“huh?”

“Or, you can not understand the argument and not believe.

I think that is what the argument is all about.

I find it hard to belive that anyone's belief or non belief in a Supreme Being is going to be entirely driven by logic.”

“Yes, if that's what you choose to believe. But your free to believe anything you want.”

“The logic of the non-theist side is sound, though. The theist side always comes down to faith.

Ther are several formal debates on that site. I just chose the one that seemed most comprehensive.”

“God has set us up in a finite existence that allows free will, But God as an infinite being is seperate from that.

Then you'd have to acknowledge that your insistence of christianity's exclusivity is fundamentally flawed...”

“I know Mutt wasn't talking to me, because I don't believe in Christianity is entirely exclusive.”

“Agree with Mutt, there. Plus, where do you get that interpretation of scripture?”

“I find it hard to belive that anyone's belief or non belief in a Supreme Being is going to be entirely driven by logic

That's why I choose one fight to pick: that of exclusivity. It simply is not logical. Therefore, I cannot believe the Bible is the infallible word of God or whatever.”

“But that sound Logic must operate on the assumption that God is ruled by the same limited existence that we are. Our logic breaks down when considering something infinite. It's like trying to measure between two points in a black hole with a ruler, the measurement becomes meaningless.”

“Prove it.”

“"Then you'd have to acknowledge that your insistence of christianity's exclusivity is fundamentally flawed..."

How?”

“I don't have enough experience with black holes to even have a clue how to measure them.”

“I'm afraid you'll have to prove it Phaedrus, my point is that you can't.”

“Then prove Christianity is the only way to God. In absence of evidence, Occam's Razor applies.”

“There is no proof (for finite beings considering the nature of God assuming that God is infinite which is also taken on faith), other than faith.”

“My point, exactly.

I believe I stated this earlier in the thread.”

“Wow, I quote the movie Contact and 200 posts later Occam's Razor makes an appearance. Now how did the movie end again.”

“Interesting sidepoint - who came up with Occam's razor? A Franciscan Friar.”

“"My point, exactly.

I believe I stated this earlier in the thread."

So did I.”

“Okay, so we agree that a claim to exclusivity made my Christians is, by nature, illogical?”

“No whether or not it's logical or illogical is beside the point. You accept it on faith or you don't. Just as there is no way to support the idea as logical, there is also no way to say it is not.”

“"Okay, so we agree that a claim to exclusivity made my Christians is, by nature, illogical?"
Phaedrus
04:53:18 PM
02/26/04


Shouldn't that be some Christians?”

“IF ONE WERE TO BELIEVE IN THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN, WOULDN'T IT BE ILLOGICAL FOR THEM TO BELIEVE THAT PRIOR TO CHRIST, NO-ONE WAS ADMITTED TO HEAVEN?”

“Uhm, by nature, illogical is not logical. If you cannot make a logical argument for it - if it exists outside the scope of logic - it is illogical.”

“Chili, yes.”

“Thanks, phaedrus. Just keeping up here and wanting to make sure we didn't have any blanket conclusions being drawn.”

“"Uhm, by nature, illogical is not logical. If you cannot make a logical argument for it - if it exists outside the scope of logic - it is illogical."

Read my post, the concept of logic (and it's antithesis) does not apply.”

“Cannot be supported by logic.

If you dispute that Exclusivity cannot be supported by logic, there must be a logical argument that supports it. One or the other.

There is no spoon.”

“chili, what comments do you have with, "No one comes to the Father except through me..." or words to that effect.”

“is christianity the only faith to claim exclusivity to it's
hereafter?”

“I do not dispute that exclusivity cannot be supported by logic. I dispute that our human logic has any bearing one way or another on the validity of the concept.”

“Well dayhiker to go there would be to exclude this.

I and the Father are one." (Jesus quoted by John 10:30)


What I propose is that the very existence of God takes several forms, thus the Trinity.

Personally, I belive in a manifestation of all of them, but is to deny one to deny all?”

“Put it this way.

Someone proffers a reasonable logical argument that exclusivity is invalid.

What bearing does that have on a judgement of God? Why is a concept which someone accepts on faith as the judgement of an infinite being subject to validation by human (and necessarily finite) logic.”