The Passion

“In that model, Phaedrus, I think X would have to take a finite diminsion.

The infinite properties would have to exist outside of the model given.

So, therefore, no. I think X still would equal 1.”

“It is the form on 1 that is subject to debate.”

“That means you have a finite understanding of God, or that God himself is finite?”

“What difference would that make to someone who believes in the same God?

My arguement is that our relative comprehension of the infinite dimensions is subrogated to the awareness that such dimensions are Supreme, regarless of form.”

“The difference that it would make is that if one believes that God is infinite and thus that we are unable to understand the totality of God, all interpretations are flawed, and thus inaccurate.”

“And you sir, are correct. My point exactly. Our interpretations are flawed. However, accepting we have flawed interpretations due to the the infinite form, results in the conclusion that acceptance of the existence is the key. Not the definitions of what exists.”

“I'll buy that if you're saying that all paths lead equally to the infinite God, even non-acceptance would have a part in the infinite.

Also, your model should change:

believer in another god:
X = 1

This is true if the reality of God is infinite.”

“Seeing a child pour milk into a glass is seeing mutt pour mutt into mutt.

”

“No, Phaedrus.

Now you have separate infinite forms. X = 1.

If you place a separate value on another infinite form, then you change your value of X.

The essence of the Supreme Being is that there is only one, the diminsions of which are infinite.”

“Does he have nipples?



C'mon Chili. That's really the part that doesn't make sense. If infinite means infinite, there is nothing we do that does not make us at one with God.


Lol@mutt!”

“While it is an infinite God as to form and existence, you still have to believe in the existence.”

“Why?”

“For Salvation.”

“Wow, I came back to a math problem and all sorts of goodies. I'll try to digest.

I did somethinking on my drive to and from the meeting. I think Mutt is partly correct about me. This started with a long discussion Nigal and I had a couple of months back. I don't doubt my faith, but I don't have a strong enough knowledge base for my beliefs. That needs to change and it started changing a month ago with some books I started reading.”

“Penthouse doesn't count, dayhiker.”

“Good for you, dayhiker.

Salvation? The only thing that's going to save a person is theirself.”

“Mutt was 666.”

“That's true Mutt. That is why our respective beliefs are personal in nature.”

“And no one religion can claim exclusivity and sole salvation.”

“Phaedrus, isn't the single dividing factor among all religions the belief that their God is the path to salvation?”

“Or damnation, for that matter.”

“Not exactly. It's an oversimplification to say that it's the one dividing factor.

There are a variety of divisive attributes, and some religions are more innately tolerant than others. A claim to exclusivity, however, could be said to be the most divisive factor, as in the issue that drives people to war and killing in the name of religion, if that's what you mean.”

“chili, what about buddhism and taoism?”

“Mutt, did you post as 666 on purpose? I was joking when I said that this morning.

How about this one. Is it possible that God was working through Mutt to make me face up to the fact that I don't know what I believe solidly enough?

Mutt, I can't recall, are you arguing against all religion or just Christianity? This isn't a smart comment, I'm really asking.”

“LOL. No, I didn't do it on purpose, but now I feel kind of creepy. Maybe it was the DEVIL working through me to get you to be overconfident in your beliefs.

But seriously, my main beef is with Western religions in which exclusivity and evangelism is trumpeted.

I'm sort of a cross between a buddhist and taoist, though I study neither.”

“Here's a shocker for you. I bought and read a copy of Siddhartha about 18 months ago. You might be surprised that most folks aren't like the crap on TV and that alot of that stuff makes other Christians uneasy.

Here's another thing that came to mind while driving (driving 100 miles across rural Alabama must be soothing to the mind. There dang sure isn't anything to look at), your beef is also with the historical power thirst of those who worked in the name of Christianity. Lots of bad history there. You seem to vent that anger on the current batch of folks. You've mentioned that several times. Slavery and the eradication of the Indians were both economic issues. Do you hate capitalism?”

“Well, there is one point to consider.



Moses wasn't told "I am the only God"

He was told "Put no other gods before Me"

Now that is an oversimplified paraphrase, but, it does seem to be pointed toward the existence of other gods.

However, being a Christian, I see the single decisive factor being that the God I believe in appeared in such form as not only to be personified, but to prove his existence through resurrection.

That, gentlemen, is what leads me to the belief there is but one True God.”

“Dayhiker, I'm also pissed at the current crop of christian fundis for the following reasons:

they want school-led prayer
they want religious symbols in government buildings
they want to ban abortion
they want to ban gay marriage
they want to ban books
they want a christian theocracy
they want a christian one-religion world

And there's probably a few more too.”

“Mutt, do the Christians really have a monopoly on that?

I am a Christian and I don't believe it is right. But, then again, I view the teaching of Christ to promote tolerence.”

“The chick that plays Mary Magdalene is HOT! She played in Brotherhood of the Wolf. She was in a movie even more disturbing than this one. It was so bad that people were running out of the theater, fainting, and some needed oxygen. It was a French film called Irreversible which had a ten minute rape scene.

I think I'll skip both movies.”

“I believe the lady you're referring to is also Jewish.

The Ten Commandment thing is the Alabama State house was a load of crap. That guy wanted publicity.

chili, you hit on something I frequently notice. In the contemporary type services with the praise music you'll hear things said like, "My God is an Awesome God," and the like. I always wonder if they realize what that actually means. These same folks will tell you there is 1 God. If that's what you believe then why have the word "an" in their. That one is a pet peeve of mine.”

“I believe she is. She's done some pretty racey movies. If you do a search on her name most pages that come up are nudie pics...not that I'm advocating porn of anything...”

“What's that chicks name again? j/k

Gibson said in his interview that she had a good bit of input in the film and he changed some things on her advice.”

“Monica Belluci - she played the Merovingian's girlfriend in the Matrix sequels.

Saw the following license plate on the way home from work...

"1 WY UP"

A sign?”

“And yes Monica Belluci is unbelievably HOT! If I were Catholic I'd be confessing everytime I thought of her.”

“You guys seem like you have some very well thought out beliefs about christianity. I would like to get your thoughts on the line of thinking that led me to Christ...
I was never sold on the whole concept of "christianity". I always figured that it didn't matter if you were an agnostic, buddhist, atheist, or whatever, if you were a pretty decent person you would be o.k. I had always believed the argument that Jesus was a wise teacher or great humanitarian like ghandi or elijah muhammed (sp), but if you think about it, that is impossible. You have to believe one of three things about Jesus. 1) He was crazy, 2) He was a liar, 3) He is who He claims to be. He can not be a wise spiritual leader or humanitarian, because if He isn't the Son of God, then He intentionally lied to thousands of people...that excludes Him from being a great man. The Bible tells us that Jesus cured people of insanity, so how could a man who is insane do that? But the point that really turned it around for me is what happened after the Resurrection. In the years following the Ascension, hundreds of believers were killed for believing in Jesus as Lord. Why would people die for something if they did not witness it first hand.(People always bring up Koresh, or Jim Jones, but they never claimed to be God, and I don't reckon anyone has died for them since they died. People died for believing in Christ AFTER he died)Taking all of that into consideration, I came to the conclusion that Christ must be telling the truth, and if He was telling the truth, then He must be the only way to salvation. All religions can not lead to salvation if they contradict each other.

I would just like to get your thoughts, as I said before your points are always well thought out and presented.”

“FYI -Wack jobs will do anything, even follow other wack jobs. It's there nature.

Like I sez befoe, Rebel. Bow to Constantine, for HE is the one that made you believe......”

“Even you have to admit that that is alot of "wack jobs". Too many to be disregarded as zealots.

btw- Does anyone besides me remember how cool Skid Row used to be?”

“1) He was crazy, 2) He was a liar, 3) He is who He claims to be.

4) he was misinterpreted by those around him, and his message was turned into the basis for a religion.”

“Err, that should be this message.”

“How was He Misinterpreted? The Twelve traveled with Him day and night. One would think that they had as good a grip as anyone on what He was preaching.”

“I'm just pointing out that those three options weren't the only three options.

The apostles could also have lied, rather than Jesus lying, as another possibility.

Read a bit about the Bible as a meme, and you'll get the idea about how the religion could have survived well without the aid of God.”

“We live in a pluralistic society with lots of choice.

Within an hour of my house, I can visit a Buddhist temple, Islamic mosque, Jewish synagogue and evangelical Christian church.

So, most of us think of belonging to a religious tradition as a matter of choice.

However, it seems to me that in much of the world and through much of history, religion was not a matter of choice.

Does someone decide to be black or Italian or Hispanic? My argument to those who ask me what the basis for my religious identification is that. It is who I am.

My family prayed for safety in their cellar in Belgium during WWII. Our local priest gave my mom last rites at the very moment she passed away. My ethnicity, family traditions and worldview are grounded in long held Catholic traditions.

If I suddenly became a Buddhist, I would be a Buddhist from a Catholic perspective. That doesn't make sense.

That said, it is possible to be an ambassador and visitor of sorts in my church. The core of current Catholic tradition accepts the validity of other religious traditions. I can and have experienced Islam, Judaism and evangelical Christian churches, etc. as a Catholic.

These crossover experiences help me to become closer to God without leaving the church.

Stay within your identity, but experience all that is good in the world.”

“BTW, I don't want to diminish those who choose to change. I just think that it is possible to look at the whole thing from a much less competitive viewpoint. Why does anyone have to change?

If I say that I accept Jesus as my personal lord and savior on a whim but know nothing about the tradition, why is that better than remaining a Jew or Muslim but visiting a local hospital because my Christian neighbor invited me to do it?

I would propose that the second is more a conversion experience than the first.”

“Wow, I just got back a few hours ago from finally seeing The Passion Of Christ. Wow! THANK you Lord! Thank you, thank you, thank you! I am forever indebted to You. Peace.”

“Hey Rebel! You thinkn that JC's core following (right then and there in dear old Bethlaham) was bigger than Koreshs 75+ followers that went down with him?”

“BTW, if you intend to take the bible literally, this movie is heresy. Carry on.”

“Can someone start another thread about the movie? I'd like to hear what people who have seen it think of it without wading through the Great Debate.”

“I thought the movie was pretty slow in spots. There must have been 20 minutes of close ups of Mary's face. Even the torture sequences seemed to go on and on until I just wanted something else.

I thought the best actors were the jew who helped Jesus carry the cross and Pontious Pilot. Jesus spent most of the movie playing a wounded man like Charlie Sheen would do it. I give it a C+.”

“I give you an F.

Pontius Pilate. Read the Bible once, and you'll get the correct spellings, moron.”