The Passion

“I think it’s a safe bet that Jesus wasn’t married. I mean think about it, what woman is going to let you go out with 13 of your friends on a Friday evening and buy a story about rising from the dead when you come home on Sunday?”

“Oops, ha ha! "crucifiction" was definitely a typo! I'm gonna go hide under a wooden table until this lightning storm passes. :Þ”

“And can you imagine Him and all His buddies driving around in one Accord? Chicks wouldn't dig it.”

“Buck, could you provide links to your two folders over at photo.net?”

“Strawman, Buck. Yes, if there's a bazillion ways to get to God, then perhaps you'd be right. But unfortunately for your argument, I never made the claim that there are a bazillion ways. There are fundamentals common of many religions that one can use to partially conceptualize "restraints" on the pathways, thus invalidating your moral relativist strawman.”

“I and about 20 of my friends bought tickets to see this movie on Wednesday night at 9:30. I'll let you know what I think about it as soon as I get back. The only thing I don't like about the movie was they filmed it in Aramaic(sp) and it has English subtitles. I think Gibson should have just filmed it in English.”

“Way to go Smileygirl! You had alerted the web board gods with your e mail and look what pops up within a day? Smooth move Ex-Lax! LOL!

I haven’t gotten to read this whole thread but went straight to Reformed Lurker’s post as I told Smiley I’d really like to hear what he has to say on it. He did not disappoint me! He’s a fart smeller, er, smart feller! LOL!

The Greek Testament is clearly anti-Semitic in places. This can not be denied. But that’s not what Mel was focusing on. From reviews I have read by Billy Gramm it seems as though Mel was going for the dramatic side of the story and not the theological side. His movie is focusing on the question that every single person that ever read the accounts of the last hours of Jesus’ life asks, “Holy crap man! What would THAT be like?”.

Mel went to great lengths to be as accurate as he possibly could and even had a priest on set at all times as a consultant to ensure biblical accuracy. If he’s going right from the text then the Jews are not dealing with anything they haven’t been dealing with for the last 2,000+ years. As I told Smiley the concerns get raised when something like this comes out that there will be a rise in Anti-Semitic acts towards Jews. Not so much here but in Europe where it doesn’t take much to get them going. I don’t think this will happen though because Mel seems to be focusing on the man and not who did or didn’t kill him. The Jews aren’t getting all that bent out of shape about it. How can they? Most haven’t even seen the movie yet. There seems to be more christian outcry than Jewish outcry over it. Probably the Protestant vs. Catholic thing.

Will I see it? No. Christianity and Judaism are two separate religions and this is a movie for Christians.”

“I haven't seen the movie yet, but I probably will.

The first time I ever heard someone say that the Jews killed Christ was from my Jewish roommate. I'm guessing that was a more widely held belief years ago.”

“Okay, for arguments sake...

In Catholicism there is a line of thinking that says that "Jesus is the Word." The thinking is that the message and Jesus the person are one in the same.

Jesus came to the world to present the word - or the message of love and charity - to the world.

Jesus' crucifixion was just the inevitable result of goring some sacred cows. It had to happen to spread the message.

At the point of crucifixion, the message was dead. However, the work of Jesus' followers resurrected the message.

If Jesus is the word and the message is resurrected, then Jesus is resurrected.

Jesus is alive in the world because good is alive in the world.

Thoughts?”

“There are fundamentals common of many religions that one can use to partially conceptualize "restraints" on the pathways


Reductionist mysticism, Mutt? seems pretty common among backpackers, and that ain't a bad thing!”

“By the cold & religious we were taken in hand. Told to feel good but taught to feel bad.

Jeezus, Don't you people know that GOD drives a flying saucer.”

“I think I'll just start my own religion, one that's fundamentals are based on beer, cigarettes, and porno. Can I get some followers?”

“Followers? I'm already pope of that one!”

“Here's my take on the inerrancy of the Bible. We don't just "not question" it, as this was a huge undertaking on verifying the authenticity of the various Books. A common misperception is that the Bible was translated over and over and over. This is not the case. The Bible was written in ancient Hebrew and Greek and Aramaic and "copied" by scribes who painstakingly chiseled each letter. If one letter got messed up on a tablet, even if it was at the end of a big tablet, they'd toss it. They guarded each word with their lives. There are ancient documents of the Bible from different parts of the world that confirm the accuracy. Then from the original ancient languages it was written in English and the various modern languages. So it wasn't translated through the ages, our English versions are from the original ancient languages it was written in.

I look at the Bible as a "will", so to speak. What's at stake? My eternal inheritance. A will must be either 100% correct, or it's totally thrown out. A will is a binding document, and if one item is disupted, then the entire will is disputed. I feel this will was inspired by God and is His inerrant word and the final say on eternity. I know it to be true, even unto death. That's me.”

“I mean, even if you're not religious how could you not see a movie that is stirring up such controversy? It's like Mel Gibson was trolling the movie world, and won.”

“I haven't seen it yet; haven't formed an opinion; and am somewhat amused that my company, the most conservative company in America; which has as it's first corporate objective "To Honor God in all we do", is sending my entire division to see it next week, company paid.

I guess after I see it, I might form some opinions on the work.

Until then, seeing the debate above, I can only sit back and reflect "In my Father's house are many rooms"”

“Now here's the schism.


In any good religion there has to be a schism Lumber.


you be the "catholics" Beer, cigs and porn.


I'll be the "protestants" with wine and porn.”

“Nice sophistry, buck.

Phaedrus: I guess you could call it that - hadn't thought of it like that before.”

“god, buck, you are impossible to argue with because there is so much fluff around the meat of your argument.”

“Hey Buck, I don't go to church. I eat pork. I defend the rights of homosexuals to marry. I hang out with homosexuals and other forms of sinners. I don't pray (in your definition).

If I die right now, do I go to hell?”

“"Strawman, Buck. Yes, if there's a bazillion ways to get to God, then perhaps you'd be right. But unfortunately for your argument, I never made the claim that there are a bazillion ways. There are fundamentals common of many religions that one can use to partially conceptualize "restraints" on the pathways, thus invalidating your moral relativist strawman."


Mutt, you know how many religions there are out there? Do you? Who's to say which ones do or don't lead to God? Using your argument, certainly not me nor you, as they all lead to God. So if we have so many ways that lead to God, some of them quite easily, do you think God Himself would have come down from heaven and personally go through torture and die on a cross in a brutal way, when so many other really cool options were available? I think not. Call that a strawman, or a hey man, or a scarecrow, or whatever you choose, it's just a simple line of reasoning. And quite true.”

“Nigal, when I read the New Testament, I read about how "esteemed" the Jews are. I have always held the Jews in very high regard, based on my readings of the NT.”

“Answer me, Buck. It's important.”

“Hey dayhiker!

Some more photo folders at photo.net”

“Buck, did you see my post about your photo.net page?”

“Buck, the seventh floor grad. library at the University of Michigan has some of the earliest copies of Paul's letters.

They are on little papyrus fragments. Over the years, they have been eaten away by mice and warped by the elements. They are now in pieces. Researchers over the years have pieced them together enough to be able to translate MOST of the text.

Now, imagine that you are an old monk with bad eyesight. You are copying the Bible onto lambskin. You have only candlelight and want to finish that Bible page before daylight ends. You write around the lambskin wart near the end of the page and end up squishing the words together as darkness envelopes your chamber.

Now imagine that you are Inuit and you are trying to explain the various qualities of snow in English without the benefit of the hundreds of words that your language has for it.

It is one of God's great miracles that anything from ancient times has survived to present day. It is impossible to know exactly what the Biblical writers meant. However, the message of the book(s) in their entirety is clear: Respect God and Love your neighbor. The rest is detail.”

“Oops, you did see it. Thanks.”

“Well, I find it extremely hard to be a Christian and not believe in tolerance.”

“Someone, please tell me if I'm going to hell!”

“here, here for the counselor. I saw a bumper sticker one time that said, "Jesus was a liberal."”

“Judge not, lest you be judged.”

“Good idea, Dayhiker. Isn't the judgement of exclusivity a sin, then?”

“Ha ha! Geez, Phaedrus, patience, man, I just saw your post!

Phaedrus, it does not matter one bit what I think. God has written about life/sin/redemption in quite a bit of detail. Just know this, that even in my sin and your sin, God loves us. How we respond to His love will have eternal consequences. I am no judge, thank God, and I am full of sin myself, so I throw myself at the mercy of God and believe that Jesus is the Christ and He took upon Himself all my sins. And I will thank Him and praise Him forever more because of it. Even as I continually fail Him. No lie.”

““The Bible was written in ancient Hebrew and Greek and Aramaic and "copied" by scribes who painstakingly chiseled each letter.”

This depends on which “bible” you’re dealing with. The original Hebrew text were written in Hebrew and Aramaic. The Jews transcribed the Torah (first five books) into Greek (the original Septuagint). Later the Christian church then translated the rest and retranslated the Hebrew into Greek (the Septuagint we have today). They did not translate it word for word nor with 100% accuracy. There are HUGE differences between the Jewish Tanack and the Christian OT. There are even passages in the Greek Testament that were never even there.”

“buck, im sorry to break it to you, but using quotes from the bible to back up the bibles inerrancy is circular logic and a conflict of interest.

example: the story of adam and eve is true. why? because the bible says it is? so? well, the bible is the word of god. how do i know the bible is the word of god? because the bible says the bible is the word of god, and the bible is the word of god, so when the bible says the bible is the word of god, it must be telling the truth because the bible is the word of god. but how did you establish the bible is the word of god? because it is. but what if it isnt? it is. but what if it isnt? it is. how do you know it is. because the bible says it is.
oh ok. i see now. the bible is the word of god because the bible says it is. makes perfect sense to me.”

“So if I tell people that the bible is secondary to the direct contact with God - what He tells us, would I be wrong to do so?”

“Lee you are misinformed. Wine and porn have nothing to do with what this religion is all about. You heretic.”

“Respect God and Love your neighbor. The rest is detail."

AMEN”

“Good idea, Dayhiker. Isn't the judgement of exclusivity a sin, then.

If you call God a sinner, sure. I don't. God is the "final" judge, the "ultimate" judge, and what He wrote, no matter how exclusive it is or appears to you, I believe and trust it. If you wanna call God "exclusive", fine. I guess that's one cool thing about being God.”

“Phaedrus, you did a good job of fishing for the exact comment you wanted. I bit. I believe I'll have to scratch my head on that one. I would say Christians would say that Christ is the only way because of the quote that says something about none can come to the Father except through me, or words to that effect. Non Christians would counter, how convenient. I think what matters is that it's the big guy upstairs opinion that counts.”

“When can we get an Islamic thread going? That should be worth at least 200 posts in one business day! LOL!”

“Phaedrus, thou doest make idle time with satan. Why doest thou?”

“That's what I mean, Buck. Who am I to judge Him? How can I deny what he tells me in my heart to be right, even if it is against the words of the Bible?

In other words, who do I believe, the book or the reality of God? And yes, they are different to me (and who are you to say what His will is for me?).”

“buck, im sorry to break it to you, but using quotes from the bible to back up the bibles inerrancy is circular logic and a conflict of interest.

StormBringer, I'm sorry to break it to you, but denying quotes from the Bible as being true, but saying "sure, some of it is true" is circular logic and a conflict of interest.”

“Mutt, you know how many religions there are out there? Do you? Who's to say which ones do or don't lead to God?

Why of course no one, Buck. That's why it's ridiculous to believe in exclusivity.

So if we have so many ways that lead to God, some of them quite easily, do you think God Himself would have come down from heaven and personally go through torture and die on a cross in a brutal way, when so many other really cool options were available?

Sure, if christianity is in fact a path to God, why wouldn't God do something like that? Perhaps there was and are a bunch of people that need a sacrificial demonstration like that in order to believe, even if there are other easier paths. How are we to know? Of course, I don't know of a single religion that is "easy."


I think not. Call that a strawman, or a hey man, or a scarecrow, or whatever you choose, it's just a simple line of reasoning. And quite true.

If it's true, you certainly haven't shown it to be. You've given fallacy and sophistry thus far.”

“the thing i hate about literalists is they wont even let you discuss your interpretation without dragging you into an argument on whether or not we should be discussing it or not. they absolutely INSIST on everyone believing in inerrancy, and fret and moan whenever someone wants to critically examine the bible relativistically, because theyre AFRAID. they dont want to hear differing viewpoints because theyre afraid THEY will start questioning the bible if they do, and if they start doing THAT, then that is the road to hell, so they quash anyone else who offers an alternate interpretation. if you want to live in fear of what god will do to you if you stray, that is fine, but quit trying to convert me.”

“Sorry, Dayhiker. I didn't mean to make it seem like I was fishing. I got the response I expected, but that is because I've dont my share of thinking about this issue (as, I'm sure, have you).”

“I've done my share...


geez.”

“StormBringer, I'm sorry to break it to you, but denying quotes from the Bible as being true, but saying "sure, some of it is true" is circular logic and a conflict of interest."
Buck

no, its not, because im advocating for debate. your advocating an exclusivity on TRUTH”

“Dunadan:

My will be done on TT as it is in the workplace.”