The Passion

“No, Truth isn't relative. Beliefs are. How close do our beliefs come to truth is really the question, because no person can even pretend to have it right.

Would you concede that God would grant salvation to one who has not lived as the bible states, but who was moved to live as he did by God himself?”

“StormBringer, it's cool, I know religion and politics are heated topics. For some reason, maybe because I've discussed them so much, I don't get too riled up, especially on a forum. It's all good, no need to apologize.”

“You probably know how I feel Buck but I am interested. If a skeptic may ask a question :

Is not the following open to interpretation:

"I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me." - John 14:6”

“I mean, the name of the thread is, "The Passion", ha ha! We'd be failures in this thread if we didn't get all passionate! :Þ”

“i am a relativist. your stance is that relativists believe that way of thinking in order to justify their immoral behaviour. that is not an attitude of tolerance, and i take much offense at that. however, ive gotten out of hand with some comments. maybe you dont think youre better than i am, but if you follow your statements thru to their logical conclusions, it sounds like you do. some ppl can live quite comfortably with obvious paradoxes floating around in their head simultaneously. theres a word for that. i forget what it is”

“bearmagnent, the way I look at it, each statement in the Bible should be taken literally unless it is obviously meant to be figurative, like a parable. I see no reason to make allegorical implications just because. Sure, there may be deep, layered meanings gleaned from literal statements, but that doesn't make the literal statement untrue or open to interpretation.

As for the "I am the way..." verse, there are many many verses that back this up, so it's not just one instance. The Bible is a magical story of love when taken in whole context. Even if Christ never said He was the way, the truth, and the life, and no man could enter the Kingom except through Him, (which he said many times), just knowing the story and the historical sacrafices to atone for sin and Christ being the fulfillment of those sacrifices would be enough. For me, anyway.”

“For me, anyway."
Buck
07:40:16 PM
02/20/04


Either there's one way or not.”

“But it has to be figurative. How can the way be through JC. He's gone. Through his teachings? Aren't those open?

here is a weak(?) stab: do his teachings say: go to chuch once a week”

“Would you concede that God would grant salvation to one who has not lived as the bible states, but who was moved to live as he did by God himself?

Phaed, allz I can do is point to what the Bible specifically says about salvation. The Word of God is VERY clear about salvation, that regardless of how "good" we may be, or how "bad" someone might be, it doesn't matter, we just need to accept Christ as Savoir. Again, these are not my words and ideas, but they come from the Bible.”

“adam and eve is a parable”

“Either there's one way or not.

The Bible says there is only one way, Phaed, and since I believe in the Bible, I defer to the Bible.”

“But it has to be figurative. How can the way be through JC. He's gone. Through his teachings? Aren't those open?

bearmagnent, you say Jesus Christ is gone? No, not at all! He died but rose again and He lives! And He left the written Word for us as a "manual" of sorts.

As for weekly meetings, no. It's not necessary, (as I read it anyway) but congregating and learning is encouraged. I'm in the wilds most every weekend myself.”

“But God has the power to override scripture, right?”

“What'd I miss? This thread has blown up.”

“God has the power to overide
Scripture, but he won't, It's his promise to us. (From a Christian point of view)”

“But God has the power to override scripture, right?

No, according to His Word, God cannot lie, and a contradiction would be a lie. God has even warned us not to add or take away from the Word.”

“The bible is not open to interpretation? Has it not been interpreted several times? Wish I had more time for debate. Gotta go.”

“"in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago," - Titus 1:2”

“bearmagnet, no, the Bible has not been "interpreted" many times. I can, with an acient Hebrew/Greek reference concordance, look up the actual words translated to English from the original ancient language. And these are all compared from various ancient Biblical texts from different parts of the world. So the only "translation" is from the original ancient language to English. Since the original languages are often vague, or "could" have different meanings, there is a degree of translation to our language. This is where scholars in the ancient languages come into play, as well as finding the context of the words and how they were used elsewhere in the Bible. It's a pretty darn careful process.”

“2 Tim.3:16
"All scripture is given by inspiration of God...."

7:25
Now concerning virgins I have no commandment of the Lord: yet I give my judgment, as one that hath obtained mercy of the Lord to be faithful.

***************

Mt.23:10
"Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ."

Col.3:22
"Servants, obey in all things your masters."”

“Context
Context
Context.
You don't serve your earthly master in the same manner in which you serve God. There's no contradiction there.”

“Dayhiker wrote:
"Yes, and the exclusivity thing is something I really struggle with. Say you're a Chinaman that grew up

Buddhist and that's been the only exposure you've had to religon. Is he going to hell? Don't see how. Boy is that guy gonna be freaked out when he gets to Heaven. Yes, that's a simplistic example, but one we've all wondered about."

Dayhiker, I'm not authority, but I can tell you what I feel to be true from things I have read and know personally.
There is a book called Bruchko about a fellow named Bruce Olson. He went as a linguist and missionary to the Bari Indians in S. America back in the 1970's. These folks killed every outsider who made contact with them prior to his being accepted by them. They had no outside contact with others from anywhere. It was their way of protecting themselves and their way of life. Long story short. The tribe accepted him into their number. Miraculous of itself that he wasn't killed. One fellow adopted him as a brother. Quite a long time after he learned their tounge and was ready to start witnessing to them about Christ here is what happened. Bobby-the white name Olson called this Bari man....... was walking through the forest with him. The Bari tribesman turned and addressed Bruce Olson seriously. He told Olson that he had someone important for Olson to meet. That it was of crucial importance. The tribesman then went on to relate the gospel of salvation and actually witnessed to Bruce Olson. Told him that this was the saviour and the way to eternal life. Here is the tribesman....... trying to make sure the missionary knows Christ and is saved. God/Christ/HolyGhost in one can make contact with the heart and mind of any human being anywhere around the world. The Lord can reveal his plan to others without us no matter what..... in terms that they can understand and accept. So yes..... I think there is a chance that some raised as Buddists with no western exposure to our philosophies will find the way to Heaven. Reading that book helped me understand that we don't have to change peoples way of life or their culture to help them better themselves. Any culture who makes contact with the Creator will be fine without my interferance. I just have to try to do what I know to do for me and what is asked of me by my maker.”

“I've struggled with that too, but the bottom line is who is and isn't saved will work out to suit God's purpose.”

“"Sorry for being repetitive, laqtis........."



WTF did that come from? I didn't a f-ing thing to you.”

“So has this been decided yet?

Should we start digging up Buck's backyard to look for (former) sinners?”

“Yowzers. Come home from the office and ya'll have a great discussion going!

Buck - We are saved by grace, through faith which is a gift and not by "accepting" Christ per se. You know the story. I'm a Christian as well, so thought I'd chime in with that.

Here's one though. What about Abraham? He didn't know Jesus the Messiah personally. Why idn't he in hell? 8)

Sorry. Hadta ask 8p.”

“Here's an excerpt from an article titled, "The Horrible Doctrine"

http://www.navpress.com/Magazines/DJ/ArticleDisplay.asp?id=034.10

"As you study the agonies of hell— total solitude (Mk. 9:42 ); absolute darkness (Jude 13 ); utter worthlessness (Job 18:5-21 ); fire and burning (Rev. 14:10 , Rev. 21:8 ); thirst (Lk. 16:24 ); weeping and gnashing of teeth (Mt. 22:13 ); sleeplessness (Rev. 14:11 ); shame and disgust (Dan. 12:2 ); hopelessness (Mt. 25:46 )—you begin to see its nature as the exact opposite of all that is of God. He offers hope; hell writhes with despair. He gives peace; hell screams with pain. He wipes the tears from our eyes; hell is nothing but shrieks and weeping. He gives us His rest, water, food, and fulfillment; hell offers only thirst and hunger. He is light; hell is “blackest darkness” (Jude 13 ). Hell ultimately is complete and total deprivation of everything God created that people need, want, and enjoy. Thus, hell is nothing more than existing in a world totally bereft of God. The person in torment will have only what his own mind and powers can create. "

FWIW”

“Christ! This thread brought the passions in a lot of TTr's!. The movie doesn't even open until Feb 25 (Ash Wednesday). MAybe you should all log off and settle down on this Friday night. How about getting some fish tacos and a bottle of wine to munch on while you're watching a good comedy like Monty Python's "Life of Brian."”

“Man, and I thought I could drag a debate passed the point of usefulness. Buck and Phaed are kindred spirits. LOL!

Buck, one thing that will get you a heck of a lot further than absolutist statements is intellectual integrity. Being able to understand and say things that go against the flow of the group you’re in. Saying something like, “The bible is the absolute perfect word of G-d and is perfect.” does nothing but put people on the defensive. The Greek scriptures have errors in them (quite a few) and even the original Hebrew scriptures has some errors in it in some numerical recountings.

Does errors in the Hebrew scriptures change anything for me? Heck no. I don’t use the “perfect word” defense to try to prove G-d’s existence. It is a creation, not a living breathing thing. Some numerical errors don’t change the overall message for me.”

“I'm a recovering catholic. I was beaten by the nuns & later by the priests & brothers in prep school. I feel most religions are the same & can be good for people who need a crutch. I use the mountain scenery as my church for 30+ years now & content with the results. I'm not too fond of the holy rollers, pious attitude at church & forget all-about-it the rest of the time.”

“Saw this artical on line and I must say, it was disturbing.

The History of Crucifixion
by Professor Michael Cook of Hebrew Union College

Crucifixion was widely practiced in the ancient Mediterranean and Babylonian worlds by most of these civilizations, except the Greeks
and the Jews.

The laws regulating crucifixion had been codified by the king and lawgiver, Hammurabi 1700 years before Jesus. Men and women were crucified for a wide variety of misdemeanors, from adultery to insurrectionary activity.

Since traditionally women have been punished preeminently over men for adultery, Babylonian women no doubt bore the brunt of this punishment for sexual misdemeanor. In the history of torture techniques, crucifixion remains among the cruelest because of the protracted and incremental agony of the victim.

Death on the cross took three and a half days to complete. The victim died. Of multiple causes: broken bones, lacerated limbs, asphyxiation when the weight of the hanging body crushed the lungs, strangulation and exposure. Often, while left hanging in this decaying state, the victim's organs were dragged from his/her body by roaming animals and eaten in front of him/her. But the final cause of death was dehydration, and after three days without water, the victim descended into madness.

[According to the Christian texts,] Jesus, who hung on the cross for six hours, was spared these agonies, and it was the thrust of a spear from a Roman soldier which killed him.

Nor was the crucifixion of Jesus a focus of Christianity for its first three or four centuries, during which time the cross lingered as a symbol of Jewish death. From the time crucifixion was introduced into Judea to the fall of the temple in 70 C.E. thousands of Jews were crucified, often as many as five hundred a day. Some historians have claimed that the stony landscape around Jerusalem owes its appearance to the fact that it was denuded of trees to make crosses. The sight of the crucified, the sounds of their dying, the smell of their decaying bodies pervaded the hills, and generations of Jewish children grew up beneath these shadows and smells. So common was crucifixion, many legends grew up about it.

A coterie of behavior developed about the crucified. Under such circumstances as the dying on the cross experienced, there could be no "moment" of death. Mostly, it was a sliding towards death for three and half days, while the victim's family and friends gathered around the site, sometimes even pressed by the victim to make arrangements about his final effects, sometimes to bargain with or attempt to bribe the Roman soldiers about when they could claim the victim's body, hoping to spare him hours of pain. (Such bargaining is depicted in the [Christian] Gospels.) Then, as always, bribery formed the means of shadow arrangements, and victims were sometimes rescued. Often people of power, such as Joseph of Arimathea in the Gospels, prevailed on the Roman soldiers. Most frequently nothing prevailed, and women and children, as well as men, were hung from the crosses. Whole families, suspected of insurrectionary involvement, were hung together. Pregnant women were hung, lactating women were hung. In the reign of the Roman procurator, Gessius Florus, during the years 64-66 C.E., when the revolt against Rome began and Judea, crazed with pain, descended into madness, 3600 Jewish men, women and children were crucified. If it is painful to imagine a grown man on the cross, imagine a pregnant woman or a child!”

“Catskill, is there any room for the possibility that religion can be more than simply a crutch for the weak?”

“One thing that I have always been curious about.

Before the printing press and widespread literacy there was no way for an average person in a Christian country to actually read the Bible.

So, the priest or minister or stained glass windows told the tale.

This helped to bolster the hierarchy of the church because the structure maintained control of the message.

REFORMATION

After advances in Western culture it became possible for individuals to read and interpret the Bible.

I always thought that one of the core ideas of Protestantism was that an individual can have a personal relationship with God. This, BTW, appeals to me greatly.

In fact, the evangelists in Ann Arbor who I always used to have lunch with would often ask me to accept Jesus as my "personal lord and savior" despite the fact that I went to church every Sunday.

The big question I have is this: If an individual can have a personal relationship with Jesus/God, then can't there be personal revelation to fill in Biblical holes?

And isn't it a waste to have this personal revelation stay personal?

In Catholicism the collected personal revelations are called tradition. What do Protestants do with this valuable personal revelation?

If God is at work in the world, then can't his works/ideas be collected and used to influence belief?

Why would God only leave the Bible, essentially abandoning the world?”

““If an individual can have a personal relationship with Jesus/God, then can't there be personal revelation to fill in Biblical holes?”

I think this would depend on the nature of the biblical hole as well as how this personal revelation corresponds to the written scriptures. Example: What if it’s a revelation that contradicts the written scriptures?

“And isn't it a waste to have this personal revelation stay personal?”

I think it important to share how your personal faith has effected/changed your life for the better.

“If God is at work in the world, then can't his works/ideas be collected and used to influence belief?”

This can be a double edged sword. Many times people point to things miraculous in an effort to influence belief and when these things sometimes turn out to be false it can actually be a negative thing.

“Why would God only leave the Bible, essentially abandoning the world?"

Is it possible that G-d has said all he needs to say? We must also understand that in order for G-d to “speak to the world” as a collective as He did in biblical days He must do it through an anointed prophet. There can not be a prophet without the collection of the Jews. The only time G-d had a prophet was when the Jews were for the most part in one place (or the bulk of them). This was usually Israel but at times of captivity it has been in Babylon (Danielle). Because of the dispersion of the Jews there has not been a prophet sense Malachi. Once the Jews are all back together I think we’d see some interesting stuff.

Good thoughts RL.”

“Nigal, you are a good man.”

“j/k..... THIS is what and how this subject should be playing out, not like how it was in the first 5 pages of threads. Insightful, both of you and thank you for sharing, please keep it up. As a heathen, I find it very enlighting that this conversation can take place the way it has play out here. I've learned more about both of your faiths, that's the best part. Religion has always been interesting to me. The concept is unique. Please, keep these thought rolling.

PS - very interesting C & P, above, Nigal....”

“What was the matter with the first five pages?”

“Coming from me, this will seem odd, but the pointless barbs and degeneration into agruing past each other did nothing but waste time. There was some information there, but it was lost in the swill at the bottom of the can. Buck is a master of this tactic, but some played into it with the countless "you missed the point", "you didn't address the point" banter. Please don't take offense, Phead, that's not my intendition. I just enjoyed two people of different faiths disscuss the matter. It's refreshing and I enjoyed it. I'm just warming up for my part in the "We Are The World" song :)”

“My only response:

One works with what is at hand. You can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear.

;)”

“Hey, Nigal!

"what if it's a revelation that contradicts the written scriptures"

One problem that I see is that various groups, councils, etc. have decided upon the books to be gathered into the Jewish scriptures or Christian Bible.

So, we have the Torah, the Protestant Bible, the Catholic Bible, the Book of Mormon and so on.

I believe that the books of the Bible were written by divinely inspired people. The strength of their writing and their ability to record God's message was confirmed by the community(ies)/churches that accepted the books as valid.

Over time some of these books were deleted. Others were brought back in. It just depended on the politics of the time.

Of course, the gospels were the writings that most closely approximated Jesus's life, so they are the most authoritative accounts and should be respected as such.

However, the difference between the personal revelation recorded in those books 100 years after Jesus and the personal revelation of believers today is not so great.

BTW, my apologies for not couching this completely in terms applicable to Judaism, but you get the idea.”

“"You can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear....."

or a horses ass! LOL!!”

“Nigal, you made a few other points and I'll try to briefly address them.

Certainly, personal revelation is a double-edged sword. But, I think that over time, personal revelation can be verified by the experiences of other believers. This is not a science, of course.

But, there are lots of people who find great meaning in the writings of Thomas Merton or Thomas Aquinas. They are not Biblical, but proven as solid sources by ages of Christians.

This can also be said about the Rabbinic conversations that are recorded in response to the Jewish canon.

Maybe I'm getting caught up in the term "revelation." Maybe "experiences with God" is a better term.

What I don't like about your last requirement that revelation happen through a prophet is that it completely cuts out the personal relationship aspect of Christianity.

Perhaps Judaism is different. But in Catholicism there is a belief in a Holy Spirit at work in the world. God is not silent in Catholicism at least. I'd like to keep that if possible.”

“"But in Catholicism there is a belief in a Holy Spirit at work in the world....."

It appears to me that the Holy Spirit is the "thing" that might "fill in the blanks" so to speak. How can you tell if it's the Holy Spirit, or God? Is there really that big of a difference?”

“Hey Q!

According to Catholicism, at least, the Holy Spirit is the same as God.

Of course, then there is the logical gymnasics of the Trinity that is needed to back that little bit of creativity.

The core questions remain:

Is God/higher power/Jesus at work in the world?

Can an individual commune with God/higher power/Jesus?

Is this personal experience transferable to others?

Is the Bible simply recorded and verified personal experience?

Which takes precedence: personal experience with God or Bible?”

“I see what you are saying now about written scripture RL. When I was a christian I was a “bible only” believer. That is, if it’s not between Genesis and Revelations, I ain’t reading it! While this is well and good and people have lived great and extraordinary lives between these two books. Now I am not so afraid to read other things such as the Talmudic writings, some Kabala, the Quran, the Apocryphal writings, even the Book of Mormon some. The Judeo/Christian scriptures we have today were chosen for us back in 325 C.E. when good old Constantine forced the church to sit down and figure out what’s what.


“BTW, my apologies for not couching this completely in terms applicable to Judaism, but you get the idea."

Why should you have to? You’re a Christian and that’s the POV I want from you. 8)



“This can also be said about the Rabbinic conversations that are recorded in response to the Jewish canon.”

If ya get three rabbis in a room together and ask them a question you’ll get four different opinions. LOL!

“Maybe I'm getting caught up in the term "revelation." Maybe "experiences with God" is a better term.

What I don't like about your last requirement that revelation happen through a prophet is that it completely cuts out the personal relationship aspect of Christianity.”

Ah! OK. The very last explanation of prophets and prophecy is in the corporate sense, not the personal sense. I was just trying to explain why it would seem that G-d dumped the bible in our laps and then took off. I didn’t explain it well enough I think.

“Perhaps Judaism is different. But in Catholicism there is a belief in a Holy Spirit at work in the world. God is not silent in Catholicism at least. I'd like to keep that if possible."

In Judaism it’s referred to as Shikinah (SP?) or “presence of G-d”.

Hope I didn’t run off to long at the mouth here but I figured I’d combine both your posts.”

“The core questions remain:

Is God/higher power/Jesus at work in the world?

**YES

Can an individual commune with God/higher power/Jesus?

**YES

Is this personal experience transferable to others?

**YES

Is the Bible simply recorded and verified personal experience?

**YES

Which takes precedence: personal experience with God or Bible?"

**This one is trickier for me and there can’t be a simple answer as they are interdependent upon each other in my case.”

“After reading this thread, I remember why I don't fool around with religious threads. It's apparent that none of you, esp. StormBringer and Mutt, are interested in actually coming to any (logical) conclusions. Arky said it best, it's an unwinnable argument.

Do I need to convince you any further that this woman is dangerous and should be banned?"
Dunadan
02:31:53 PM
02/20/04

Here's the real issue in this thread. I believe Dunadan has a secret agenda to ban everyone but himself from this board! He is the anti-TT!! Watch ye, therefore, and pray, for thine enemy Dunadan walketh about as a lion, seeking whom he may ban. Or, to put this in line with the thread, we should gather up an angry rabble, march to Dun's house with torches and pitchforks, and demand he be presented for judgement.”

“"WHO Says the Bible Is Literally True?

A majority of Americans believe the Holy Bible is literally true and not just a book of stories that are meant to be interpreted as symbolic lessons, reports The Washington Times of a recent ABC News poll of 1,011 adults.

* 61 percent believe the story of the creation of the Earth in seven days as told in the book of Genesis is literally true.
* 60 percent believe in the story of Noah's ark, the global flood, and God's covenant to never destroy the Earth again.
* 64 percent believe that Moses really did part the Red Sea so the Jews could escape their Egyptian captors.

"These are surprising and reassuring figures, a positive sign in a postmodern world that seemed bent on erasing faith from the public square in recent years," the Rev. Charles Nalls, a priest with the Catholic-Anglican church, told The Times. "This poll tells me that America is reading the Bible more than we thought. There had been a tendency to decry or discount Bible literacy among the faithful."

However, the levels of literal belief in these three Bible stories differ among various Christian groups:

* Mainline Protestants: 75 percent believe in the story of creation, 79 percent in the Red Sea account, and 73 percent in Noah and the Ark.
* Evangelical Protestants:
* 87 percent believe in the creation story, 91 percent in the Red Sea, and 87 percent in Noah.Roman Catholics:
51 percent think the story of the creation is literally true, while 50 percent believe in the Red Sea story and 44 percent in the flood.

This may be the most interesting finding of all: Among those who said they had "no religion," 25 percent still believe in the creation story, almost a third believe in Moses and the Red Sea, and 29 percent believe in Noah and the Ark.

Here are some other fun facts to know and tell that are culled from two different Harris Polls taken in 2003. Among Christians in the United States:

* 93 percent believe in miracles.
* 95 percent believe in heaven.
* 93 percent in the Virgin Birth of Christ.
* 96 percent in Christ's Resurrection.
* 42 percent believe God is a male.
* 1 percent believe God is female.
* 38 percent believe God has no gender.
* 11 percent believe God is both genders."


Believe in yourself before any other God.”

“BTW, the first paragraph in my post is mine, then the space before the c/p of Dunny's post. Just so no one thinks I was putting words in his mouth.”

“I didn't read this whole thread, just the last 17 posts. I wanted to answer some of the questions that RL posted though.

Is God/higher power/Jesus at work in the world?

Definitely. I am 100% sure of it in my own life and the lives of many people (even non-believers) around me. Satan is also at work (I think it is important to point that out), however, that is not to say that every "bad" event is his direct doing. Humans have distasteful sides.

Can an individual commune with God/higher power/Jesus?

Absolutely. I attempt it everyday. I say attempt, because sometimes I don't connect. Maybe I'm in worship service and my mind gets a little distracted by the cute guy four rows over. Maybe I'm at home and I keep thinking about the checkbook balance. I'm human.

Is this personal experience transferable to others?

Totally. You can witness that in almost any corporate worship situation. As more people give fully to the Holy Spirit, more people are drawn into the experience. These people are not all already believers. That is one way that non-believers come to accept Christ as the Savior. They were in one of those worship situations and they literally felt God moving around them. Don't get me wrong though, there are plenty of dry worship times, plenty of pages in the Bible that are someone's personal experience w/ God and it doesn't leap out at you, plenty of instances of another person sharing where you are like, "big deal", etc. When you are at the right moment in yourself, it will be felt.

Is the Bible simply recorded and verified personal experience?

Yes & no. Yes, it is recorded and verified personal experience, but it is also divinely inspired by The Main Dude!

Which takes precedence: personal experience with God or Bible?"

Does the Bible back-up your personal experience? I mean, I could say that in my personal experience w/ God He told me to burn down my office. I could say that my personal experience w/ God influenced me to steal a car or do something much more mild like, cheat on an exam. If you have a good Biblical foundation, you will know when an experience is God, when it is Satan, and when it is just your humany-humanness. AND you'll have greater strength to walk away from the stuff that isn't coming from the Good Guy.”