The Passion

“over religion. i figured there wasnt enough controversy, arguing, and hurt feelings on trailtalk, so why not start another hotly contested thread for intellectual supremacy?

anyone planning on seeing this movie? i wasnt going to at first, because i didnt want to give my money to a film that slanders certain ethnic groups, but then i decided to see it and then make up my mind. the fundamentalists were painting "the last temptation of christ" as blasphemous sight unseen, so i figured "the passion"'s detractors were probably also over-reacting. its also worthy to note that their criticism isnt that the movie is anti-semitic in as much as it might spark anti-semitism. so ill give it a shot. mel gibson is known for playing fast and loose with historical facts when making "historical" movies, yet supposedly he was pretty faithful to the gospels, who themselves play fast and loose with christs history, when making the movie. i am intrigued with his striving for authenticity, including having the speakers speak in their actual tongues of the day, or as close to it as could be constructed, and not shying away the graphic violence. however, the fact that he doesnt address how the jews may or may not have been unfairly depicted by the gospels, and his fathers denial of the holocaust, is going to hang over this movie like a dark cloud.”

“Christians already worship a Jewish man as God. What more do Jewish people want?”

“for starters, they would like anyone who thinks of them as christ-killers to stop”

“I'll see it, but not at the theater. Not that I have anything about giving me money to certain people (well, I think ALL of Hollywood is a bunch of schuckters), I'm just a tight wad wen it comes to that kind of stuff.

Anyhoo, looks real good! I'm interested in how the Aramaic languge will pan out. I've seen stills of the movie and it "looks" good. It's nice to be a "non-believer", so to speak...I don't have to get all caught up in that crazy "blastphomy" thang. Really, anything that stirs the pot is GOOD fer biz in my book any ways ;)”

“More people in history have been hurt, maimed, killed, tortured, blown up, disembowled, sliced, diced or otherwise violated that it seems unlikely to me that a movie can move people to any greater level of violence than the human race has already shown it's capable of, of it's own volition. Needless to say, I haven't seen the movie, but (being Jewish) I will be the first to admit the religious leaders are very much capable of hyperbole...”

“and for certain ppl to quit denying the holocaust, that might be nice.

but for my part, i think ppl might be over-reacting. mels stated purpose was to be true to the gospels. so the real debate should be, did the gospels treat jews unfairly?”

“'in the name of God' should be inserted after the word 'violated'”

“Funny! I sent Nigal an e-mail about this yesterday, because I wanted to keep the discussion off the board. And look what shows up today!”

“It's a bloody religon and I hope that it's convaded that way. The bloodier the movie, the more "true" is will be.”

“stir the pot.........stir the pot..........”

“"It's a bloody religon....."

For the record, I'm talking about the Christian faith......carry on.....”

“Hey, let's fuel a little world-tension!


Mel Gibson, in "THE CRUSADES - HEROES OF OLD".”

“If your a Christian, whether or not the Gospels treat Jews fairly isn't a concern, you accept it as the word of God.

Of course that's not an excuse for blaming Jews for Christ's death. Number 1 individuals are responsible for their own actions. Number 2 Jesus had to die on the cross to fulfill his destiny.”

“many of the same fundamentalists who got up in arms about four seconds of a breast shot are chomping at the bit to see a movie that runneth over with blood and gore. interesting.........”

“Stormbringer, context.”

“I'm more interested in spending my money on "Touching the Void".

Artex has spoken.”

“New from Paramount:

"THE INQUISITION: SMOKE EM OUT"”

“If your a Christian, whether or not the Gospels treat Jews fairly isn't a concern, you accept it as the word of God"

thats not true. you can be a christian (i.e. follower of christ), and not believe that the bible is the word of god.”

“This hogwash about Jews as being "Christ-killers" is non-sense. Christ CAME to be sacfificed on the cross. It was His goal. Jews didn't kill Christ, a loving remedy for the sin of all humanity is why Christ was killed. It was of His own choice that He died on the cross, not that of any particular man or particular race. Satan would have loved to STOP Christ's killing, as the sacrifice of Christ and the redemption of man was a devastating blow to Satan. In fact, when Peter drew his sword to protect Christ being taken away to be condemned, Christ said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan". Satan didn't want Christ to be crucified. This was Christ's choosing, not the Jews. Again, to call Jews "Christ-killers" is not understanding the whole story of redemption and what was prophesied and fulfilled through the death and resurrection of Christ. What a wonderful story of love!”

“"Stormbringer, context."

okay, maybe that was an unfair shot, but you get my point.

"praise the lord and pass the ammunition"”

“Who are these Christians? Yes anyone can call themselves a Christian, even Mormons call themselves Christians. But your mainstream denominations are pretty clear on the word of God.”

“Where were you on the "John Kerry for Pres." thread? I was cast alone amongst the heathens.”

“"Who are these Christians?"

episcopalians, for one. it doesnt matter what the mainstream thinks. to quote L7 "the masses are asses"”

“Miramax presents a loving story of a regular guy trying to make his way in a world of confusion and faith:

"ALEXANDER III, THE MAY LAWS"”

“You might want to check the Episcopal churches web site...”

“the definition of a christian is one who follows the teachings of christ. the first christians believed that jesus was "god revealed". that is all that is required to fit the bill. just because a person believes that the gospel writers stretch the truth for their own purposes, be it artistic license, or to better suit their audience and the audiences cultural references, or to fill in the gaps, doesnt mean theyre not a christian”

“As human beings, we sure are good at getting around that "Thou Shalt Not Kill" commandment.”

“bison, you may want to read john shelby spong”

“Dood - the Jews didn't kill Christ, the Roman Govenor did as someone had to pay of all the "trouble" that was being caused, or the Gov woulda lost his job and prolly wound up in the Collisum. JC took the opp to become the altimate marter and it worked! Good thing Emperor Constantine got some feelings or all you "Christians" would still be fed to the lions, no offense.”

“Stormbringer, I know you're just trying to rile things up a bit, as you admitted in your opening post, but there is a difference between immorality and violence. Violence is a fact of life, a fact of nature. We live in a violent world. Violence for the sake of violence, as in exploitation violence for entertainment, is not necessarily good. But depicting non-fiction violence as reality to share a story, like in Saving Private Ryan or the realities in Schindler's List, etc., is not so much "entertainment" as it is letting us know how it really was. Christ was brutally and violently and savagely beaten as He carried His cross to be crucified. I think Mel Gibson is trying to potray a realistic version of how this happened, as painful as it may be to watch. At least that's how I see it.”

“I started to start a thread on this several times on Tuesday and then never did. I was impressed with the way Mel handled himself with the interview on Monday night. I'll see both this movie and the Gospel of John. I can honestly say that the thought that "The Jews killed Christ" has never entered my mind. I'm glad that they gave some of the background about why it was a concern, for those of use that weren't aware. I had no idea that after Passion plays you'd have an outbreak of violence against Jews. That's horrible and the sad thing is that it gives comments like laqtis's above some weight.”

“One rogue Bishop does not a religion make.”

“then again, you may not.

remember, just because 99 percent of the ppl believe a thing, that doesnt make it true.

at one time 99 percent of the ppl of the world believed the earth was flat.

any reputable biblical scholar will not assume the bible is 100percent literal wordofgod truth. thats an extremist viewpoint. just as is the viewpoint that the bible is wholly fiction. there is a middle ground which is much more likely to be TRUTH.”

“Where's stratdewd? He's be all over this.”

“its not one rogue bishop. there is a movement within the denomination.”

“Me thinks the Bible has some truth about "events in time", but as far as the rest, again no offense, is pure fiction. Makes an interesting read, tho!”

“Stormbringer, maybe the theologians YOU listen to don't adhere to the Bible being the inspired Word of God, but the ones I read sure do. Mainstream traditional orthodox Christianity believes in the inerrancy of the Bible. I certainly do. It's the relatively new Higher Criticism that suggests the Bible is not inerrant.”

“"Stormbringer, I know you're just trying to rile things up a bit, as you admitted in your opening post"

i may be stirring the pot, but that doesnt mean i dont believe in what im saying, so dont hold that statement against me.

but i agree that was a tangent i probably should have left alone. that could fill a 100-post thread of its own”

“i dont want to make things worse but has anyone read the bestseller
"the DaVinci code"?”

“its "relatively new" because more ppl are opening their minds and uncovering evidence with "critical thinking", and because "inerrancy" has been the dominant way of thinking for hundreds of years, despite the intentions of the original christians”

“This thread is going on tangents with or without you. It's the nature of the beast.”

“you can believe its "inerrant" if you want to, i dont want to change your mind, but dont tell me im not a christian or im going to hell (i know you didnt, im speaking in a broader, more hypothetical sense here) just because i dont believe in inerrancy. you DONT have to believe in inerrancy, just try to live as He lived. of course, that makes things tricky. what did he really say, and what didnt he say? thats why you have to read the bible with your heart and mind”

“I read the Da Vinci Code. The guy gets the girl in the end. But, along the way, you can learn some pretty interesting things about Christian history.”

“"This thread is going on tangents with or without you"

yea, werent we talking about a movie or something?”

“I do plan on seeing the movie, but I'm not gonna get caught up in the hype about it for or against. I'll see what I think when I see it.”

“Some of the gospel writers were originally Jewish. Some were looking to convert other Jews to Christianity. Or at least create a differentiation between the "Jesus Movement" and Judaism.

One of the best ways to gain for your own cause is to downgrade the opposition. So, I have no problem thinking that these early writers messed with the truth of Jesus' death in order downgrade Judaism and gain more followers.

It's politics and it's in the Bible. Essentially, the Bible itself is unfairly anti-Jewish at some points.

So, when Gibson tries to make a movie that accurately presents the Bible, who can argue with some anti-Jewish sentiment. It's just being true to the source.

That doesn't change the fact that his religious beliefs are myopic. But I'll go to the movie and probably like it.”

“I haven't read the Da Vinci Code, but have read about it. It did make me wonder though. IF Jesus had actually married, would it change anything? The faith believes that he was the perfect one without sin. Marriage and sex within marriage aren't sins, therefore does it change anything? Just something that I wondered about. OTOH, kinda hard to always be right when you're married, LOL.”

“StormBringer, of course people are trying to "open their minds" about the inerrancy of the Bible. They don't really like what it says, or at least not all of it. They want to pick and choose what they like and don't like, and call what they like "truth", and what they don't like, "story". They want to have the Bible tailor-made for themselves to conform to their own way of thinking. It's all about "them" and not so much God. The Bible even prophesied this and said we will become lovers of ourselves and reject the "truth". Not that I expect you to believe that or not, but I know it to be true.”

“So the Romans took some loud-mouthed, rabble rousing, long haired hippie freak, who hung out with prostitutes, drank, dig drugs, incited riots, insulted the old order, created a cult, started gathering followers and generally causing trouble . . . .they took him, strapped a cross to his back, made him march up a hill, broke his legs, nailed him to the cross and poked him with spears like they would any other common criminal. It was no big deal to be crucified. The romans were doing it to dozens of folks at any given time.

I still fail to understand what all the fuss is about.



The last time Mel Gibson was strung up this way, he was at least playing a character that had some basis in reality . . .William(?) Wallace in Braveheart.


This story is just a bunch of hooey.”

“I can always count on Death, Taxes and Lee to say there is no God.”