Social Insecurity thanks to Dubya

“Kiss your social security benefits goodbye....


CNN) -- Democratic presidential contenders on Wednesday condemned Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan's warning that future cuts in Social Security and Medicare spending will be necessary.

"If I'm president, we're simply not going to do it," Sen. John Kerry of Massachusetts, said during a campaign stop in Ohio, one of 10 states holding Democratic presidential contests next week.

Kerry's chief rival for the Democratic nomination, Sen. John Edwards of North Carolina, called Greenspan's proposal an "outrage."

Distancing himself from Greenspan, President Bush said he did not believe current retirees' benefits should be cut, but restated his support for allowing younger workers to invest a portion of their Social Security taxes in private accounts.

Bush insisted that his proposed budget would cut the current projected deficit of more than $500 billion in half within five years.

"As you know, in the 2000 campaign I articulated a point of view that we ought to have personal savings accounts for younger workers that would make sure those younger workers receive benefits equal to or greater than that which is expected," Bush told reporters at the White House. "I still maintain the same position."

Greenspan warned a House committee Wednesday that growing federal budget deficits and the retirement of Baby Boomers will require future cuts in Social Security and Medicare to avoid tax increases that would damage the economy. Since that population will begin to draw Social Security benefits within the decade, he said Congress has a "reasonably short" time to head off a crisis.

Greenspan's testimony to the House Budget Committee brought quick criticism from the Democratic campaign trail.

Kerry, the front-runner, said cutting Social Security would be "the wrong way to cut the deficit."

"I welcome this debate," he said. "This is a debate that I will win, and we will win, and we will restore our economy in a way that is fair to Americans without destroying the solemn contract of Social Security in this nation."

Edwards also weighed in with a written statement.

"Alan Greenspan is right to call attention to the record-shattering deficit under President George Bush," the senator said. "But it is an outrage for him to suggest that we should extend George Bush's tax cuts on unearned wealth while cutting Social Security benefits that working people earn."”

“The Fed chief has absolutely no business making fiscal policy recommendations.”

“paid for by the committe to dis-elect shrub”

“I think Greenspan's ideas were spawned to cause an intended uproar, only to be shot down by our own and beloved GW...for the sole intention to make him look good and influence a positive public opinion of him in these times of distress.

OK...maybe not.”

“you really might not be far off on that one Buddur”

“If I get to retirement age and can't draw social security....well, I will remain positive for now and not go down that path.
I can't see why we have unlimited funds when it comes to Iraq, but try to depend on a little government check when you're old and that's just too much to ask. Hey, the baby boomers kept our parents and grandparents and the disabled going. All we ask is a little retirement supplement.”

“How many funds for war came from the SS fund? At some point many will find ways to not pay into the 'suckup your security fund'.Had you invested what you've payed into SS when you payed it,how much would it be worth.Put away your calculator, you DON"T want to know.”

“Uncliff – SS is not a savings account. Money that you pay in goes to pay current retirees benefits, plus a little that is supposed to fund a trust fund for the future, when baby boomers strain the system. Dubya has used that surplus to fund his tax cuts. To compare it to an investment account displays ignorance about how the system works. Many Americans don’t realize this when politicians start talking about privatizing SS.

Greenspan said he favored making Bush’s tax cuts permanent and cutting benefits to the poor and middle classes. The Fed is supposed to set monetary policy - PERIOD. This is a gross violation of the notion of a nonpartisan, independent Fed and Greenspan should shut the hell up or resign so he is free to make his views public.

Many people realized early on that Bush’s tax cuts were an attempt to ‘starve the beast’ – to cause a fiscal crisis that would force a reduction in Federal spending. Social Security and Medicare are important programs favored by most of the population. How about undoing the tax cuts and paying what we’ve been promised our whole lives? As someone who has paid every penny of taxes owed for over 25 years, I’m pissed as hell by this stuff.”

“Oh – and W did not disavow Greenspan’s comments. He merely said that those at or near retirement age would not have their benefits cut. That means he favors cutting benefits for millions of others who are slightly younger to fund his tax cuts for the rich.”

“Future retirees won't even be able to afford cat food.”

“Maybe I don't understand the stock market as much as I thought, but isn't investing in the market somewhat of a gamble? I mean, people lose the 'whole farm' sometimes due to bad investments, true? So, Uncliff, who's to say that your investment is going to pay off? Isn't it possible that you may wind up with nothing?”

“Dude, that's why they named it Social Security.........a sure thing.”

“It seems to me that there is a deliberate plan afoot by conservative Republicans to run up these huge deficits in order to get the federal government into a catastrophic budget bind. Their solution will require the dismantling of most of social programs. There will be a ripple effect down through state and local governments. It's already happening.......no new taxes but constant rate increases for college tuition, local services, etc.

When Tim Russert interviewed Bush recently he pointed out that Bush is the only President since the Civil War to cut taxes (and three times) in time of war.

Meanwhile we are arguing over these sideshow issues like gay marriage, etc. Will we wake up?”

“Puh-Leeze, Soc. Security has been in deep doo-doo since the time I arrived in this Country, which predated the first Bush.

Dubya is not responsible for the baby boom of the 50's.

With a growing population the concept of the current generation paying for the elderly was a good one, it does not work in a shrinking population, or a static population that is living a lot longer.

If you absolutely must blame a Republican, blame Eisenhower fo concentrating on domestic development which produced the baby boom and did not fight a lot of foreign wars to keep the population down. His policies of course left his sucessor (JFK) to deal with foreign ballistic missiles set up 90 miles off the coast.

Pehaps Dubya was also responsible for giving smallpox infected blankets to the Indians.”

“"Bush insisted that his proposed budget would cut the current projected deficit of more than $500 billion in half within five years."

Bush said alot of things, they were all WRONG. And it pisses me off when now I find out he gave smallpox infested blankets to native americans! What a tool!”

“Even Reagan wasn't radical enough to wreck SS. Congress started planning for the baby boom in the 80's and Reagan supported them. Clinton wanted to eliminate the national debt by the time the baby boom hit retirement and we were well on the way.

Greenspan backed Dubya's tax cuts early on because he said he didn't want the debt paid off to quickly although many economists at the time questioned his reasoning. Now he warns that the deficit is out of control so we have to cut popular programs. I'm not stupid enough not too realize this was the plan all along.

EAT THE RICH!”

“gee thanks manuka.....I wasn't aware that Social Security predates the Bushes. What would I do without your deep knowledge of history? And that remark about Ike!....SO he's the one huh? I figured it was just a lot of horny GIs coming home and gettin down to business with the Mrs. He should of sent those guys back off to get thinned out. And yes.....it was probably a relative of W who sold those blankets. His grandpappy did business with the Nazis.

Dude, I'm sorry but your a gem.”

“You seemed to spin the argument a bit here, Manuka. I think the issue peole have with Bush is for running up the deficits and not counterring Greenspan's assessment that we should make the tax cuts permanent at the expense of Social Security. I take care of an elderly mother who is on SS. I have to pay a lot of her expenses. She basically doesn't go anywhere and spends under 40 cash a month on herself. So, she's not a big splurger (a word I invented). She spent all her money trying to keep my father in doctors and prscriptions and prolonging his life as much as she could. So, this money is all she has besides what i can provide for her. It hardly rewards people for a lifetime of hard work. And to propose this nonsense is a direct slap in the face to people like her...”

“Again ,the problems with SS isn't on the revenue side.Check out who has been getting benefits for years.The biggest shift in SS to the general fund occurs when the wealthy pay income tax on their SS income.Change the law so that SS calculates a withholding for the wealthers checks and half the problem is solved.
Violin ,I realize the pay as you go SS problems that's why a say if you have the chose invest for yourself.As much as I can semi-legally,I've done this for years.”

“But, what are the assurances for someone that can't afford to lose this money, that it will pay off for them and that there is no risk involved?”

“Eating the rich would probably give you BSE.”

“Well someone has to spell this stuff out for you JO.

You would never be able to work it out for yourself”

“Without means testing, citizenship test,real indentification test or ,otherwise accomplete overhaul(third rail removal),just say goodbye.Like all well intented programs, abuse becomes the rule.On this, the abuse comes from the government side and the recipient side.”

“Uncliff probably makes a good point, but I have no idea what the heck it is.

The role of government is to make sure the power stays on, according to most conservatives. Most liberals say the role of government is to ensure a fair chance for everyone. How can anyone not see social security as BOTH of these?”

“I'm with you, Phaed! I don't know what the heck he just said. Uncliff, was that an answer to my question? not sure...


magic 8 ball says, "answer unclear. Try again later"”

“Some people jsut aren't smart enough or well off enough to save for their own retirement.

We could have retirement shanty towns.”

“LOMAO....Ike caused the Baby Boom. That sly old dog. Thanks again for the info.”

“to catch up to Ghengis Khan, another national leader slightly to the right of center.

Genghis Khan, the fearsome Mongolian warrior of the 13th century, may have done more than rule the largest empire in the world; according to a recently published genetic study, he may have helped populate it too.
An international group of geneticists studying Y-chromosome data have found that nearly 8 percent of the men living in the region of the former Mongol empire carry y-chromosomes that are nearly identical. That translates to 0.5 percent of the male population in the world, or roughly 16 million descendants living today.

Other parallels of history, family members also succeeded Ghengis as national leader, just like the Bush dynasty sweeping across the middle east.

So when are we going to start our 'Great Wall' to keep the hordes out ??”

“>>>Maybe I don't understand the stock market as much as I thought, but isn't investing in the market somewhat of a gamble? I mean, people lose the 'whole farm' sometimes due to bad investments, true?<<<

Wow... you got something right for a change. You're right, you don't understand the stock market ;)

The stock market CAN be a gamble, but it doesn't have to be. If you want those high rates of return (which most people seem to go after) you do put your money at risk. That's why one should diversify their portfolio. There are some safe investments in the market, such as Real estate, the money market, etc. Figuring out when and where you should put your money is not rocket science, that's why all those guys who flunked out of engineering transfer to the school of buisness.

I pay out ~$125 twice a month for Social Security. If I was allowed to keep that $125 a month in 20 years @ 6% return I'd have over $115k. In 30 years I'd have over $250k for retirement. Even with the huge downturn in the economy the worst return I've gotten was 7%. Good years will be more like 12-20% and as high as 37%. Of course we live in a society where $40/month cable is a must have while putting as little as $40/month away for retirement instead of cable Television is unheard of.”

“Thank you for the answer. Don't quite understand the snottiness though...”

“Now, one other question. Do you honestly think that some elderly person, who may or may not have Deore's grasp of the 'obvious', would even entertain the thought of taking the money that they need for prescription drugs and food and plunking into the market (and feel comfortable with it)?”

“Arguments for allowing younger people to invest their own SS money are deliberately misleading or the proponents don’t understand basic math. If everyone, say 50 and under, were allowed to put part or all of the money that they now pay into the SS system into private accounts, how would we meet current and future obligations without a dramatic increase in withholding taxes? It is a plan to bankrupt the system based upon fuzzy math – in other words a con game.”

“Enron. Adelphia. Worldcomm. Should I go on?
Don't worry, your investment is safe with us!”

“For the people to the right, it's SSI. That's Social Security Insurance. NOT Social Security INVESTMENT.

Imagine, if you can, planning to retire. The Stock Market is booming. Everything is in place. You're really looking forward to a nice retriement. Then the double wammy of 9-11 and Bush's Economic Plan. The Market tanks. And you get to tell the little Misses that you're going to have to work a few more years (hopefully, you can still work) until the Market comes back. Or even worse, you had already retired when the Market tanked now your investment income is 1/4 of what it was and you don't have INSURANCE. "Dear, what's the price of dog food today?"”

“Dun, that's the other side of the coin. I admit to being fairly ignorant when it comes to investment. Therefore, I, like some other segments of the population, would need help in doing this. Who would I want to trust with my money?”

“Destroying Social Security is just another way for private enterprise to get their hands on more of our money.”

“A less secure work force would be willing to work harder for lower wages.”

“And thus would we be able to compete better on the world market, thus ending outsourcing of jobs!

Hey, it's perfect plan to end outsourcing! I'm on board!”

“The business of building shanty towns could be a real boom in the future.

Hmmmmm, I can't wait to see what a tornado could do.”

“Yes, Navi, that is exactly what happened to my aunt and uncle. Now, they are both looking at working ten more years and still probably not catching up to where they were.”

“I have a backup plan:

My wife is a european citizen.

Not everyone can contemplate retiring to Europe.”

“I would love to retire to Europe.”

“Senator Edwards:
"Alan Greenspan is right to call attention to the record-shattering deficit under President George Bush, but it is an outrage for him to suggest that we should extend George Bush's tax cuts on unearned wealth while cutting Social Security benefits that working people earn."

Exactly!

Before anyone calls me a class warrior, look at who started it.”

“Your retirement should have been something you had planned on and saved for LONG before you are elderly and need it for drugs. I'm 28 and I've been investing for 6 years. I may put 50-90/paycheck (A paltry sum into my retirement and I already have the beginnings of a good nestegg. If you start early you get that interest working for you early, which makes a huge difference in the long run.


>>>The Stock Market is booming. Everything is in place. You're really looking forward to a nice retriement. Then the double wammy of 9-11 and Bush's Economic Plan. The Market tanks.<<<

Nice scare tactic. I bet someone ignorant of how the stock market works and different investment opportunities avail might actually beleive that BS. Please pick up a "Investing for Dummies" book, skim over it a bit, and try again.

>>>I admit to being fairly ignorant when it comes to investment. Therefore, I, like some other segments of the population, would need help in doing this. Who would I want to trust with my money?<<<

I always preach personaly responsibilty. IMHO it's best to educate yourself and be your own man. I grew up poor white trash and I took it upon myself to educate myself and be self sufficient. If someone cannot take their own future and make it their personal responsibility and looks to the governemt to provide for them, I for one will not feel sorry for this person eating dog food to survive. It's not Clinton's fault, it's not Bush's faul, it's not Greenspan's fault. It's YOUR fault that you are eating dogfood. I for one do not want to live my life as an automaton depending upon others to keep me employed, to keep me fed, or to give me health care.”

“"You seemed to spin the argument a bit here, Manuka. I think the issue peole have with Bush is for running up the deficits and not counterring Greenspan's assessment that we should make the tax cuts permanent at the expense of Social Security"

Mostly having a little fun here Tree, it is kind of hard to take some of these conversations too seriously.

Busy doing my tax returns this week and notice a couple of things pertinent to this thread.

US income tax is deducted completely separate from Social Security tax.

So Social security should (note should) be self sustaining, money coming in pays those drawing SS benefits, and with decent planning excess being invested to offset future declines or to boost benefits to help maintain parity with inflation.

Income tax pays for all govt stuff OTHER than SS. If there is a deficit the govt has to borrow to balance. Now we get to the question where/who govt borrows from.
Series E bonds is borrowing from the public long term.
T-notes is borrowing from the public with varying terms mostly shorter than Series E (or H).

Borrowing from Social Security is really no different from any other public borrowing....as long as it is paid back with the appropriate interest as the SS fund has to loan out the excess somewhere to get income from the excess.
Govt is safer than industry, better govt than AT&T for the last few years, and certainly better than Enron or MCI, take a look at the New York public service pension fund investments to see what can happen when investments go down the tubes.

This all supposes that SS keeps their books separate from the general fund.

The one area I get uncomfortable about is when govt borrows outside the Country, now Japan, or Saudi Arabia hold the mortgage, that is not good.

The bottom line here is that the Bush tax cuts have nothing to do with Social Security but a lot to do with balancing the budget and future debt.

Borrowing in itself is not a bad thing, I (and probably you) borrowed against expected future earnings to buy our houses. This is fine as long as our earnings can maintain the house, pay back the loan, AND allow us enough left to live.
Starts to fall down though if we cannot do those 3 things on the future income, like if we lose the $40k job and can only get an $18k job.

I think the Bush criticizm is because he is borrowing the money to go to the movies, ie. spending on something of no future value.
If we borrowed from SS to build the Hoover Dam and paid the loan back with Elec profits no one would have a problem.

Everyone screamed when Ronald Reagan spent billions on Star Wars (also mostly borrowed) but in retrospect it was a lot cheaper than continuing to build 100 megaton nukes, and much cheaper than if even 1 of those nukes ever got out of the barn.

Mixing up the SS planning problems and the Bush taxes and spending does not help anyone understand the problems and/or proposed solutions.”

“>>>Destroying Social Security is just another way for private enterprise to get their hands on more of our money.<<<

Lets see... more capital available to create jobs and keep companies competative... and you think this is a bad thing? I would rather give a company a check and let them create a job or at least prevent them from cutting jobs then to just give someone a handout. I guess I'm just a mean Libertarian.”

“Than you are free to refuse it DeoreDX.

I was taught compassion for the poor, sick and powerless.”

“Well, I am getting one of those "You can live in Mexico for $5 a day books" and plan my retirement.

I figure that my social security benefits will make me rich......


somewhere down there.”

“>>>Yes, Navi, that is exactly what happened to my aunt and uncle. Now, they are both looking at working ten more years and still probably not catching up to where they were.<<<

I feel bad for your aunt and uncle, but they obviously had some very bad investing advice. Who's fault is that? W's? Bills? Their investor? Or is it THEIR fault for not taking the time to learn more about their own retirement and where their money SHOULD be so close to retirement. Tell them to pick up a copy of Investing for Dummies, and let you borrow it once they are done.”

“I think I'll just work 'til I drop dead -- Problem Solved!

Gimme another helping of that fettucine alfredo, thanks!”