New wrinkle on illegal immigration

“That is what will happen to us if we keep allowing them to come in.

I can't change what happened 100 yrs ago or longer.”

“That is what will happen to us if we keep allowing them to come in.
Ewker
1:23:38 PM
11/18/04

That is the fear and paranoia I'm talking about. Destroy what culture, the Western European culture of America? new immigrants assimilate and America adopts certain aspects of the assimilated peoples culture.

Been going on since day 1, no?”

“no fear, just do it the correct way. That is very simple. Why do you not want them to do it legally?”

“Everyone ignored my drug questions. :)”

“I will admit the Mexican food has gotten better ;)”

“I think that people are assuming that the rules for legal entry are fair and efficient.

One of my best friends from college married an Italian man who was working in Florida on a volunteer visa.

He applied for citizenship before their marriage and after many, many times.

And, yet, he still needed to illegally overstay his tourist visa to live with his American wife.

He is a good, hard-working man. They would do things like return forms because they didn't put "NA" on lines that clearly didn't apply to them.

My father is a naturalized American from Belgium. He applied for social security, but they wouldn't let him start receiving it until he had copies of his naturalization papers.

So, he contacted the INS about ten times. Finally, they told him to pay a fee. Then, they rejected his request for forms because he had paid "too much" for them. He'd sent a hundred bucks when he needed to mail in less.

The INS finally said that he'd have to reapply for a COPY of his naturalization papers in one year. So, the INS wanted him to just ignore the $15,000 dollars in that year's social security because they thought they could stonewall an old man.

Threats were the only thing that worked, finally. He threatened to call TV stations and congressmen and sat in an office for three hours while the receptionist tried to ignore him.

I can't imagine how people who haven't lived in the US for 50 years deal with that bureaucracy. I think that many of these immigrants don't follow the legal process because they can't.”

“Interesting point, rl.”

“BM

Not that I'm aware of
No
Yes
Yes.”

“were they friends of yours?

Might I make a huge assumption for the general populace? That assumption being that people who knew dealers/did drugs/had friends who did drugs looked the other way in regards to the illegality of it.

Yet, many of these people get in a tizzy over illegal immigrants.
last edited: 11/18/04 1:43:34 PM”

“nope. I don't hang with that crowd knowingly.

Figures how? That I don't want a dealer across the street from me?
last edited: 11/18/04 1:44:38 PM”

“No, that someone on here would have the completely wrong answer for me and they would be the only one who respond. ;)

Of course, the one word response didn't quite convey that so I edited.
last edited: 11/18/04 1:45:42 PM”

“Me too.

Personally I have no issue with immigration. I'm not an apologist for illegal immigration either.

I think our immigration laws make no sense and work to create a situation where people who simply want to work feel they are forced to come here illegally.

I've never heard of someone who wanted to come here for the food stamps but I have heard of lots of people who wanted to come here to provide a better life for their families.

SuperTrolls idea seems pretty good to me.”

““In the long term, immigration helps to increase the population. This helps to support programs like social security. And making illegals legal stops the under the table non social security payments.

Save Social Security.”
reformed lurker

Actually, a lot of illegal immigrants pay into social security because they use "chueco" numbers. They don't get social security when they're 62 tho'. And they don't qualify for food stamps or welfare either. There's research supporting the premise that we make more money from illegal immigration than we put out.

Bear Magnet, I know illegal immigrants, and I don't turn them in. I rather admire their willingness to overcome the hazards to get over the border to make a better life for themselves. I like pioneering types.

Another option for those who dislike illegal immigration. Support living wages. That way, there may actually be competition for jobs and employers will be able to scrutinize potential employees' documentation.”

“Government imposed price controls cause shortages. This is true for goods and labor. Setting a so called “living wage” will cause a shortage of jobs for the very people that proponents say they want to help. The minimum wage is for first entry into the job market of untrained workers. You can only live on it if you are living with mom and dad or with five roommates. If your 35 years old or even 25 and still working for minimum wage there is something wrong, wrong with you not the system. Get an education, get a good work ethic.”

“Interns, after graduating from college, come to DC and work for the govt. They start around $25-27,000.

Not sure where one could live in DC on that "salary" but I know I wouldn't go there at noon with a police escort.”

“Interns?

What is the point?

Interns are work for things other that the immediate financial rewards. They plan on the experience and contacts making up for the present low pay. If not, they would not do it.”

“That was just one example. I think it's kind of harsh to suggest it's all your fault if your pay sucks:

"get an education, get a good work ethic".

Some people feel anyone can "live the American dream" and I think it's just BS we've been fed all our lives, burned into our collective brains.”

“mtn gal - You are wrong on several points.

We have raised the minimum wage several times in the past without your dire consequences.

Something like 70% of minimum wage workers are adults. 40% are the sole breadwinners in their family - most of them are single parents. What do you have against working people struggling to feed, clothe and house their children?

Do you really think there are enough jobs for skilled workers? Who will fill the minimum wage jobs when we all have Masters degrees?”

“I can still remember all the wailing about how when the Clinton administration raised the minimum wage, all hell would break lose. What happened? - The longest peacetime economic expansion in our history, poverty decreased, welfare rolls decreased, crime decreased, abortion decreased...
last edited: 11/19/04 11:38:04 AM”

“That was thanks to Ronnie, violin.”

“Ewker - What language was spoken by the first Europeans to settle in this country? Who is this "us" that are so threatened by the Spanish speaking hordes? How can you tell by sight that someone is an illegal alien?... on food stamps?”

“Right BM - I keep forgetting.”

“Ok, there are just unlucky people and I am all for helping them. But wage controls are not the way to help them. You can disagree that the person is totally responsible for there employment situation but how can you not agree that they have a very large responsibility for it? The fact that artificial price controls cause shortage is irrefutable. The minimum wage has historically been low enough not to cause this effect. Even the Clinton era raise was not big enough to cause the effect. The demand for labor already put wage above the minimum for most work.

Antidotal: I have worked from the age of 16 and have always made more than the minimum wage. Everyone I know well enough to have an idea of their income has always made more than the minimum wage.

get an education, get a good work ethic = If you don’t like your work situation, improve yourself and change your situation.

The President (from any party) does not have as much power over the economy are many seem to believe. Besides the so called Clinton economy started before he took office. The economic policy lag factor means administrative branch credit needs to be shared with his predecessors. I don’t feel like teaching an ECON 101 class here so I will sit down. I know the socialists will disagree but that system has and will fail.
last edited: 11/19/04 12:06:30 PM”

“violin, there are so many illegal Mexicans in this country right now you don't know which one is. The goverment est. 8-10 million illegal Mexicans in this country.
You don't think that is a problem....I do. I have a feeling you would open the borders to everyone.

It doesn't matter what the language was back when this country was settled. English has become the langauge that is spoken here by the majority of the people.

I don't understand why you and a few others don't want them to come into this country legally. If they did it the proper way that is fine. I have no problem with that.”

“It's a circular dance and there is no "truth". Illegal immigrants will always be.

BTW - what's the population of the US?

About 281 million. So 3.5% of our population is illegal Mexicans?
last edited: 11/19/04 12:16:50 PM”

“Ewker, be careful there. you're one post away from being called a racist.”

“OK - I am a socialist who is in favor of letting everyone into the country.

Nice work on beating up your straw men but do you two have any real arguments or facts to back them up with?
last edited: 11/19/04 12:16:39 PM”

“Nigal, if that is what they want to think..so be it.”

“Nigal's the only one who is implying you are a racist.”

“violin, what exactly are you talking about?

Are you talking about that English is the most widely used langauge in this country or there is 8-10 million illegals in this country.

I can only state what the goverment has said about the number of illegals here.

As far as language check this site out, it breaks states down by langauge spoken. Just click on each state and it list them:
http://www.proenglish.org/issues/offeng/states.html


I think you live in NJ, here is what is listed for NJ
"NEW JERSEY
does not have an official language and does not allow referenda or voter initiatives. 25.5 percent of this state's residents speak a language other than English. This is nearly 2 million people. The most common foreign languages are Spanish, Italian, Polish, and German. This state has the nation's highest proportion of speakers of Hindi, Hungarian, Gutharaji, Ukranian, and Turkish."

So that means 74.5% of the people in NJ speak English
last edited: 11/19/04 12:31:24 PM”

“Illegal immigrants will always be.

Bearmagnet
12:08:24 PM
11/19/04

unfortuantly I agree with you on that statement”

“Violin throws out a few unsourced stats and the calls everyone else a straw man and demands proof.

What a phucktard...”

“Unemployment will always be.

I learned in an economics class that for the economy to be at its "healthiest" one needs a certain unemployment rate, not too low and not too high.

Not sure if it still stands or if it was a load of crap to begin with.

Point is - nothing is completly bad.

I think......”

““Nigal, if that is what they want to think..so be it.”

It's Violin's standard argument.”

“I'm pretty happy with the variety of languages and cultures we have here Ewker. Plain vanilla is just plain boring.

My point is that if the people here before you decided to preserve their language and culture, you wouldn't live here.

Can you point out where I supported illegal immigration? (That's the straw argument Nigal.)”

“Being against our immigration laws is not supporting illegal immigration? Or are you just against everything?”

“BM - that natural unemployment rate biz was pretty much demolished with the information age - inflation should have exploded when we went below 6% unemployment. There was virtually none when we went below 4% and lots of suffering was alleviated.”

“Nigal you are the phucktard. Please point out where I said I was against our immigration laws.”

“My point is that if the people here before you decided to preserve their language and culture, you wouldn't live here.

VioliN
12:52:46 PM
11/19/04

or I might have adapted to their language and culture.”

“Here's a source for my figures Nigal - http://www.epinet.org/content.cfm/issueguides_minwage_minwagefacts

Choke on it.
last edited: 11/19/04 1:07:22 PM”

“Thanks Violin. I'll try to remember that.

Although.......what if we went to 0%? Is that possible?”

“That's not possible BM. Time would reverse on itself.”

“How about is it probable?”

“I don't think it is possible because there is always going to be people who quit their jobs in and effort to find something better. Plus there is always will be the effect of seasonal work (although I can't remember if that gets counted or not).”

“How about if we define unemployed as those that can't afford to be unemployed?”

“How about if Ewker or Nigal post some Latin Hotties on the atonement thread for a different perspective?


BTW - that's what I love about y'all. We can be in complete disagreement about political/economic/social issues but at least we agree on what's important, no?”

“You got to watch out for those Latin Hotties. They're bad news.”

“Yes, I heard they like to cut things when pissed off. Still, they're hot as hell and I'll gamble anytime!”

“I wouldn't gamble with THAT organ!!!!”

“I have and still no job.
last edited: 11/21/04 7:27:55 AM”