New wrinkle on illegal immigration

“I realize not everything is black and white. The older I get, the more things take on a hazy shade of gray.
That being said, I just don't think our borders should be so blatantly disregarded. Millions of immigrants in the 1800s and early 1900s came to this country legally. It's not impossible to do. And whether certain people want to admit it, the porous borders of our country are constantly exploited by criminals. It's not just poor Latinos coming to the U.S. looking for work.
And on a related note, I see no reason that the greed which allows companies to hire cheap labor in the form of illegal aliens should continue unpunished.
If the President won't tackle the problem, then congress should give it a shot. I don't hold out hope for either of them.”

“donnorton in his post up above, nailed it.”

“Don't be hatein' on the Mexicans.
By and large they are good people.
Strong work ethic, strong family values, friendly solid nice folks if you try to get to know them.”

“I haven't been "hatin" on anyone. Due to the nature of my work and the area I live in I've interacted with Latinos of many different nationalities, in many different situations, and feel confident that I am as familiar with their culture as the next guy. Nothing in my post can be construed as hate by any reasonable person. Furthermore, Mexicans are not the only people crossing the border illegally.

I don't care who crosses the border illegally or what their nationality is, they're wrong to do it. The problem needs to be remedied.
last edited: 1/21/07 12:01:28 AM”

“Studies indicate that Chinese mafia groups smuggle over 100,000 Chinese people into the U.S. each year.”

“Stick, it was a general observation by me.
Not directed to you at all.
If anyone, it was tilt, since he seems to disapprove of Mexicans.”

“uh-oh.

I'm afraid You Have Been Trolled, Stickman. (YHBT)


In the immortal words of salebored...

“Hate, hate, it's not to late, unless of course you've taken the bait.”



Personally, if I wanted to live in a Third World country, I'd move there. I'm not thrilled that it's coming to ME and the gov't is asleep at the wheel (or actively promoting it).

If some people have a problem with that... tough titty!”

“Stick, it was a general observation by me.
Not directed to you at all.
StoveStomper
12:56:00 AM
1/21/07

OK.”

“Seems the same people that love to defend USA welfare types are very quick to attack Mexicans.”

“3/21/2007
>
> Two U.S. Border Patrol Agents are serving decade long
> prison terms for attempting to apprehend a known drug
> smuggler for illegally crossing our border with more than
> 700lbs. of drugs!
>
> Almost as outrageous is that the illegal alien drug
> smuggler, who was given free medical care, and immunity
> for testifying against the agents is now suing the U.S. for
> $5 million--claiming his civil rights were violated!
>
> I have just signed a petition calling for the President
> to pardon these two Border Agents and I'm asking you to
> join with me by clicking here for the full story and the petition:
>
> http://PardonTheAgents.com/petition.asp?PID=12795687&NID=1”

“We need to let it be known that the Bush dynasty is dead. I am sorry but his father was a Moderate, the Son is a Moderate and I have no doubt the rest of the dang family is too.

It needs to be understood that the name Bush will have the same presence as Nixon in Politics.”

“Have they started building a wall along the Canadian Border yet?”

“Thanks for that link!”

“nowslimmer, they will as soon as the one on the Mexican Border is complete.”

“Didn't they did catch the guy wanting to bomb LAX for the 2K New Years coming in from Vancouver?”

“No one, not even border patrol agents, are above the law.”

“but the illegals are?”

“Absolutely, Chili.


(not even Nixon, [WINK])
last edited: 3/22/07 10:36:31 AM”

“Nice story. Washington Post snippet (2/17/07):

According to a report by the DHS inspector general's office, the incident that landed the agents in trouble started on Feb. 17, 2005, when Asvaldo Aldrete-Davila, an admitted Mexican drug smuggler, drove across the border into Texas with 740 pounds of marijuana. He saw Border Patrol agents trailing him, panicked, and drove into a ditch.

During the chase that followed, Aldrete-Davila scuffled with Compean after the agent tried to smack him with the butt of a shotgun. The agents said they saw something in the suspect's hand and feared for their lives, according to the report and court testimony.

A fusillade of bullets from Compean and Ramos missed. Finally, Ramos took careful aim as Aldrete-Davila neared the border and hit him in the buttocks.

After the shooting, the agents collected all shell casings at the scene, threw them away and did not mention the shooting to superiors, a violation of Border Patrol procedures that call for an oral report after a weapon is discharged, according to the report and court records.

Investigators granted immunity to Aldrete-Davila to lure him back across the border. The story he told was corroborated by other officers at the scene, the report said.

In March last year, Ramos and Compean were found guilty of multiple charges, including assault with a dangerous weapon, discharge of a firearm in commission of a crime, and tampering with a crime scene. Judge Kathleen Cardone issued an 11-year prison sentence to Ramos and a 12-year sentence to Compean in October. The agents appealed to a higher court, and their conservative supporters started to pressure Bush to release them”

“To hell with you and your facts!”

“There is such a firestorm after a justified shooting, I too would walk away if I could. You're automatically put on leave often without pay. Months, maybe years of court action & the gov is supposed to defend you but sometimes arbitrarily decides not too. Then the criminal is going to sue you despite what he did or was doing at the time.

To me, the cop tells you to stop & you flee, you deserve to be shot. Why should we have these wild car cases? You want to fight him instead of complying with a lawfull order, again you deserve to be shot, tasered, maced. Why should the cop risk getting shot when he shouldn't have to? You have a problem with him/her, take it up with his superiors or judge.”

“Consider one fact missing from the cyberspace chatter: In the El Paso Border Patrol sector, where Compean and Ramos were assigned, agents have fired their weapons 14 times in the line of duty since 2001 _ including four fatal shootings. In one incident, a 19-year-old Mexican immigrant was shot to death by agents after he brandished a metal pipe.

Each of those shootings, except one, was ruled a justifiable use of force, according to the U.S. Attorney's Office in San Antonio _ a "good shoot," in Border Patrol parlance.

The exception was the Compean-Ramos case. What set it apart, a federal prosecutor told jurors at their trial: "They knew it was a bad shoot."

....The van driver, Osvaldo Aldrete Davila, got out and ran for the canal, Mexico in his sights....

...ompean pointed his shotgun at Aldrete. The driver raised his hands; they were empty, Compean, Juarez and Aldrete would all agree in statements to investigators and in court testimony.

At least two men _ Aldrete and Compean _ reported hearing one of the other agents say, "Hit him."

...No me pegues," Aldrete beseeched. "Don't hit me."

Compean swung the butt of his weapon at Aldrete, Juarez testified, but Compean lost his balance and fell into the ditch, dropping his shotgun. (Compean insisted he wasn't trying to hit the driver, only push him back.)

Aldrete took off out of the ditch, over the levee and across the vega, headed for Mexico....

The stories diverge from there...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/02/16/AR2007021601290_pf.html

I've never heard of an officer put on unpaid leave while a justified shooting is investigated. And the only "firestorm' I hear is from relatives of the victims, maybe som agitators. That is, if evidence doesn't point to the contrary. i can only speak from local experiences, mostly. But my local area includes a hella lot of shootings.”

“I guess you were there, so your version is the most accurate? Get twelve witnesses with 12 different stories every time. Like every newspaper account is 100 accurate?

Guess you've never been in a situation where you have a fraction of a second to decide what to do & Monday morning quarterback takes a few months to decide if you were politically correct.

Immediate justified shooting? What? on TV? Who decides that before the investigation is done?

You ever chase somebody that murdered, raped or assaulted somebody thru backyards,over fences,snarling dogs,cranky home owners & an alley? Why should they have to? Dark, maybe it's raining. Adreneline is high and around the next turn the guy pivots & you run into his knife. Maybe a gun. Ever been shot, stabbed or clubbed close up trying to protect others? I have.

I've carried a weapon for more then 30 years now. It just isn't that easy. These guys try to keep illegals out.... mybe one that's gonna blow up your kid's school or family's job. We all know they were drug dealers making money out of sucking lifes blood out of America's childrens veins. You want to back them on their word? Regular boyscouts. Suppose you want to hang soldiers too that aren't 100% politically correct over in the sandbox after their buddies brains just got blown out.

Well in your next incident, I can only hope you get somebody that will give you some benefit of doubt. Shoot somebody sometime & THEN tell me there's no firestorm. Watching something or TV, hearing about a shooting, maybe partial witness is NOT the same thing as sticking your life out on the line day after day for others.”

““but the illegals are?”
Ewker
11:31:40 AM
3/22/07

No, I didn't even infer that. But when you start taking the stance that "oh, but he is one of the good guys, we can overlook that"...bad things happen. The law is the law and we just can't arbitrarily say, well, we won't apply it to law enforcement officers because they are trying to protect us.

Law enforcement officers should be beyond reproach.”

“Maybe those 2 officers aren't getting the backing & support of their bosses, the media & the pols in Washington because they're hispanic?

Maybe they wouldn't have tried to do their job so hard for that reason either?

Higher standard?

Like they were hiding in some office or goofing off in some bar or brothel? Maybe if they were dealing drugs, robbing banks or raping folks. Maybe if they were pedophiles, but they were out in the field doing their jobs protecting America.”

“[i]I guess you were there, so your version is the most accurate? Get twelve witnesses with 12 different stories every time. Like every newspaper account is 100 accurate?[i]

I was not there. i, however, did not post a highly biased version of events that conveniently left out some major points. Points agreed on by the convicted and some witnesses.


You were not there. you were not on the jury. you were not the judge. You were not the prosecuter.

So what right do you have to say they were wronged? Oh right, you've "been there". Except you weren't.

So please. Tell me why the prosecuter wrongly went after these people for their justified killing?

And maybe add some facts to your conjecture and possible conspiracy theories.

You seem to think they must be innocent because of the job they have to do.”

““Maybe those 2 officers aren't getting the backing & support of their bosses, the medihia & the pols in Washington because they're hispanic?"

I am a little disappointed you played the race card so quickly and so easily.”

“I tend to give people the benefit of doubt, whether it be cops, soldiers or civilians. I would back a civilian, soldier, fire fighter or boy scout leader (etc) over criminals, illegal criminal aliens & drug dealers. (maybe not lawyers or politicians)

The difference between hero or villian is perception or politics. Always has been. If the media (or money) bills somebody as a horror story we villianize them. Again, if they make them into saints, we hero worship them & give them ticker tape parades.

Race card? I'm not hispanic, but I do know many border states HATE hispanics. That, I've seen first hand.

Walk in their shoes before you condemn them, (or any body)”

“cat - I'm not condemning them. I respect them and it Sucks to be them. I feel for them. i could never do their job. I could see myself easily doing the wrong thing in the heat of the moment.

But you can't excuse it. As chili has pointed out, they can not be above the law.

I'm done with this.

Peace.”

“I concur with BM. Yeah, it sucks. But IMHO, everyone who gets convicted thinks the conviction sucks.”

“A change of venue 'might' have changed a conviction & even crimes by supposed criminals have been cleared (& rightly so) by DNA evidence years later.

A known, armed, illegal alien drug dealer gets away with this, then the drug & illegal alien flow across the mexican border will probably increase.

I've never been convicted. I deal with major felons every working day.(incl last night) I don't know these Border Patrol agents & I think it sucks.”

“Are we fighting a 'drug war', or playing a 'drug game'?”

“If we were fighting a war..we would be hammering away at the source.

Instead we are just using a net to skim up what we can catch.”

“source = borders”

“A strict border policy would be a denial of the fact we want to be like mexico.”

“Si”

“You can't win the drug war until you abate the demand. Drugs involve serious money & the business would not survive without some very powerfull backing. There are some major US players making serious money on this.”

“Legalize pot now.”

“Illegal immigration is the biggest scam in like ever on, ironically enough, the illegal immigrants themselves. They pay all our taxes, yet do not receive any benefits from it -- be it representation, the right to vote, social security, or whatever.

Other than concerns for illegal immigration starting to threaten our national security, what reason would anyone in Washington have to want to stop this gravy train?

IMHO, its going to take something very drastic, perhaps akin to another 9/11, where perhaps many lives will be lost before enough people change their attitudes about illegal immigration.

As for the issue with openly firing at people who disregard instruction from law enforcement officials, it's not that black and white. Many law enforcement organizations have long and notorious histories of all kinds of unethical prejudices -- racial probably being the front runner. The NYPD and NJ State Police are among the first to come to mind, both having long and notorious histories of unethical racial prejudices that still go on today in 2007.

So to that end, when you have white officers that open fire on Hispanic refugees, the possibility of racial prejudice has to be examined. While I totally agree that it impedes the officers in doing their job fully, its very unfortunate. But its reality.”

“I neither agree nor disagree but illegal immigrants are afforded rights. They are given attorneys free-of-charge. This is normally a right of indigent American citizens. They are treated in our hospitals. They are afforded due process. Immigration courts are expensive to run. Criminal aliens (of which there are many) are expensive to prosecute, feed & house. I believe that they were recently awarded some social security benefits. Illegal children are automatic citizens who then give some parents license to remain & care for these citizens. Granted, Big business profits from illegal immigrants & it holds wages down. Some may pay taxes but many of these businesses don’t report them & many others pay in cash. I wish everybody well & the ability to do better but if you enter this or any other country illegally, you are a criminal.

The Border Patrol Officers in this instant case were hispanic themselves.

I have the greatest respect for the professionalism of NYPD & I am in no way connected to them.
last edited: 3/23/07 8:08:20 PM”

“The Border Patrol Officers in this instant case were hispanic themselves.

so much for the race card

Maybe they were fully doi their job?”

“Legalize drugs and outlaw lawns. Problem solved.”

“Nimblefoot -

“Si”
Nimblefoot

Did you mean "si," as for "if," "whether" or "I wonder if." or were you trying to say "sí" for "yes" or "indeed?"”

“I bought a bird feeder. I hung it on my back porch and filled it with
seed. Within a week we had hundreds of birds taking advantage of the
continuous flow of free and easily accessible food.

But then the birds started building nests in the boards of the patio,
above the table, and next to the barbecue.

Then came the poop. It was everywhere: on the patio tile, the chairs,
the table...everywhere.

Then some of the birds turned mean:

They would dive bomb me and try to peck me even though I had fed them
out of my own pocket.

And others birds were boisterous and loud: They sat on the feeder and
squawked and screamed at all hours of the day and night and demanded
that I fill it when it got low on food.

After a while, I couldn't even sit on my own back porch anymore. I took
down the bird feeder and in three days the birds were gone.

I cleaned up their mess and took down the many nests they had built all
over the patio. Soon, the back yard was like it used to be...quite,
serene and no one demanding their rights to a free meal.

Now lets see...our government gives out free food, subsidized housing,
free medical care, free education and allows anyone born here to be a
automatic citizen.

Then the illegals came by the tens of thousands. Suddenly our taxes went
up to pay for free services; small apartments are housing 5 families:
you have to wait 6 hours to be seen by an emergency room doctor: you
child's 2nd grade class is behind other schools because over half the
class doesn't speak English:

Corn Flakes now come in a bilingual box; I have to press "one" to hear
my bank talk to me in English, and people waving flags other than "Old
Glory" are squawking and screaming in the streets, deman ding more rights
and free liberties.

Maybe it's time for the government to take down the bird feeder.”

“Stupid birds! Get a BB gun.”

“"Maybe it's time for the government to take down the bird feeder."

That, and the businesses that are hiring the birds.”

“Every illegal job has two criminals. Put the fence around the true bad guys and stop blaming the needy. It's like blaming the undocumented pharmacist for the drug war instead of the demanding user. We ,as americans are never wrong, Right!”

“"and the businesses that are hiring the birds." What? Like Petco?

Something tells me we aren't really talking about birds...”

“OK................."birds"”

“I agree that we should take away the carrot, but these immigrants would not attempt to criminally enter many other countries because they would use lethal force to stop them.”