Backpack Design Input Wanted

“I received a very quick reply to an email I sent as well.

I hate to say it, but I responded on "the other side" because of where this was heading.

Nice to see it sort out.

I will now duck.......”

“A closed community, maybe. Defensive communtiy, most defantatly.

I do feel bad about the way AM was treated; however, I was treated almost along the same lines when I first started post as well. Looking back, I can see why people thought I was a troll, with all the things about carrying a CB, Scanner, FM two ways and a 75 lb A.L.I.C.E. pack. Did I know any better? Nope, I weathered the storm and took all of the great advice that was given. I know someone has touched on this, but there is NO substituion for going on a TT hike. To this very day, I still learn on these gatherings every time!

Am I condoning this "right of passage"? No, not trying to. The troll issue here HAS made people second guess newbies and seriously feel this has played a HUGE roll in the 'tude that I and others have. I personally am trying to change certain things about my "online" persona, as promised, and this is an area that needs improvement for me. On the other hand though, it is real hard to deal with people who are here just to spite. To them, I offer no quarter.

I've also noticed that there are many people who come here, to our campfire, and start threads asking some newbie question, then never come back to the thread. Are they fishing for info for a story or something? It sure seems that way.”

“extremely amusing, skiracer. ;-D


well, you GO Matt! Z-snap!”

“All that and I didn't even give my backpack input.

I am not a gear head or an ultralight person. I have a Dana Design Terraplane and really enjoy it. The harness area is very comfortable. My pack is coming up on about 9-10 years old, so it doesn't have a water bottle pouch (something I really miss). I do like the top flap/pocket. I would be hesitant to buy a pack without one. The pack has a daisy chain on it, but I don't think I have ever really used it. The same thing for ice axe loops, I don't think I have ever seen anyone use these loops in regular, non-mountaineering backpacking. I like the idea of a chapstick pouch either on the shoulder straps or hip belt. For size, I would think I would look for a 4000-5000in pack for weekend use up to under a week. My Terraplane is around 6000in and I have filled it up before for longer trips. I prefer the simplicity of many internal frame packs over external frame packs. The internals tend to have few outside pockets and I like this look over the many-pocket feel of most external frame packs. I guess it is a clutter issue.

If you are going to target scouts with your packs, I would advise against major ultralight philosophies. The reason being that ultralight tends to take some convienance out of things. That is the trade off in my mind. Adult ultralighters know this and don't mind it. But kids will complain if they loose a little comfort/convience.”

“I have seen everything from square backpacks, aeronomic looking ones to things that look like golf bags. I would like to get away from the older pear shaped bags if possible.”

“It like to carry my pack over mountain peaks, so I like something that allows for a lot of mobility for my arms for when I'm on rock scrambles.”

“Some of it comes down to physics. It needs to fit close to your body, shouldn't be too wide, shouldn't be too deep or to tall.

Form follows function.”

“OK... I'll let you have ONE small ice axe loop... that's it! It's probably only 1/4 of an oz. lol”

“Good point DeoreDX, 1/4 inch webbing is all that would be needed...or perhaps 4/5 mm cord?”

“Narrow (for arm mobility), close to the back, tall but doesn't tower over my head.”

“Well said Matt. FG, very sweet, but you ain't gotta t-ball dunk the guy, knowwhutImean?”

“...here what I want in a pack...

main body at least 3,800 to 4,000 ci.

weight: 3lb or less.

Need my straps to attach my tent to the outside of the pack.

Oh, I miss that I don't have a water bladder pocket in my osprey. Make it waterproof in case the bladder does leak.

I really like DeoreDX's list. (lumberzac posted it on this thread.) Pretty much all of that and the water bladder compartment. That's all I want :)”

“To put in my two cents...i am not a big ultralight person however i hate gear thats overly complex. Keep it simple. The best things i own are the things that dont require a lot of thought, that are free of gimmicks, and are purley functional. I bought an osprey crescent 75 a few years ago. Size wise, its perfect. It works from a weekend trip two a well over a week. However, i regret not purchasing the stripped down model. As attractive as all those features were in the store (day pack, recurve suspension etc) they have justified their weight with functionality. Your current pack design seems to try and include every possible design feature. If i was you, i would pick a specific angle to approach your design from, and stick with that.

About the top lid, obviously some people like it and some dont. i dont see why there has to be a compromise. Simply make it removable.”

“*they have not justified their weight...”

“I like the way my REI MorningStar 65 performs. It has the right size (about 4,400 cu in) and weight (about 4lbs) for pack like that. The size is really too much, but it allows for an extra beer or two, which have been known to appear in my pack. The side mesh water bottle holsters can hold up to two quart size Nalgenes and are angled forwards, which id fantastic and very help for transporting my red wine. My winter pack weight this past year, with a 6 of tall boys and a quart of both water and wine, was only 42 lbs or so. This pack has handled weights of up to 55 lbs and has not made my body scream once.

I have owned 6 packs, and this one is by far my favorite. If I were to ever buy another pack, I would save my bennies of rone of dem dare Kelty Cloud 4000. I don't care that it's white......it's the chit!”

“Along with all this input. I would like to see a female version. May be this will be in the future after you get the basic stuff worked out. Female friendly gear is such a growing industry it would be short sighted of you not to at least look into this growing segment of the hiking community.”

“When I showed up here it was before the troll proliferation and I was not hazed. I also don't like the fire walk new people must go through, but on the otherhand I was taken in by a 'newbie' that was actually a troll.”

“"FG, very sweet, but you ain't gotta t-ball dunk the guy, knowwhutImean?"
naked ape
03:36:45 PM
03/11/04

No ape, I haven't a clue. BTW, I'm still not entirely convinced this guy's for real, but I'll be nice...”

“Make it a big sack (5000 cu in)with compression straps to make it smaller. I can always pack less in a bigger pack, but not more in a smaller pack. A mesh pocket or two on the outside, a pocket for sunscreen, permits, etc., a hip belt, ice axe loop(s), and thats it. Most bag makers put way too many useless straps, pockets,a nd other features on their bags. And make sure its made for tal folks - apparently most bag makers think all hikers are only 5 ft tall.”

“My opinions are in line with most of what I've seen so far, volume and weight and feature-wise. I got a MountainSmith Auspex last year and it's performed well (though ¾ inch is a little narrow for that sternum strap).

I don't think I've ever used a separator for a sleeping bag compartment. They're pretty much 'fluff'.

Lots of folks like the hydration sleeves and mesh pockets for water bottles; I just put a Platypus or two in the top pocket. I figure if I get a leak, that'll offer some protection for the rest of the pack's contents. And I get a gravity-assist on the water transport, <G>.

I've been thinking about a small pocket across the chest, also --- secured top and bottom so it doesn't bounce and large enough for sunglasses, chapstick etc.

Right now I have two small pouches on my hipbelt: a padded one for the camera and another for a couple of Clif Bars, and small misc. items.

I was just thinking, using a raincover is probably lots more cost-effective than trying to make a pack waterproof... And speaking of colors... most people seem to prefer muted tones... But what about a reversable raincover that's black on one side and high visibility orange on the other, should you find yourself in the woods during hunting season?”

“Tilt, Golite has an add on pocket called a "team pouch". It hooks to your sternum strap and shoulder straps and provides an additional 40cui. Its small but good for little necessities...its $15.”

“Damn Father Goose.
I got free friggin pack sitting in my living room and I'm stuffing crap in it right now.

How much more real can it get?”

“Thanks, Birch -- I'll check it out.


Now we need a second opinion from Treebait to make sure HPM isn't hallucinating that pack....”

“Hey where did that uncapped family size bucket of glue come from?

WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!”

“LOL”

“heh...matt said hoes!!!”

“Gee whiz, Matt! Most folks were just giving Advdude a TT welcome! Get back in the shadows.

I've a few ideas floating in my head. I'd like to see little pouches like from an ammo belt on the waist belt. Also, it might b neat to have a modular "git-up" where you have a basic ext frame and several waterproof stuff sacks attached horizontally. They could be sil/nylon for those light days or heavier waterproof/bomb proof bags if circumstances warrant. One section (option) could be a hard carrier (bear-can or somesuch) to protect camera equipment etc... A hollow tube of the frame could be large enough (weight permitting) to act as a rod tube. What would be really gay would be a canopy like on a babies stroller for shade or rain...coupla bungees to keep it taught and could flip back (stow) when not needed.
just some thoughts...

And Matt, I was just funning 'ya.
(Don't "backpacker.com" me!”

“i hope there's a spleen pocket.....you know.....to keep all my spleens in....”

“"i hope there's a spleen pocket.....you know.....to keep all my spleens in...."

stratdewd

A pack must be versital.....

Reminds me of a conversation Amy and I had to rid a camper that was blocking our view of the sunset....

Amy...How do you like your new pack?

Steve...I love it, I can fit a whole head in the top pocket.

Amy...I can't fit a head in mine, but it's great for hands and feet. I can fit a small torso in the main bag though.

Steve...Mine will hold a large male in the main bag, as long as I use the compression straps to hold the arms and legs.


You get the idea....We have used this conversation to get rid of those camped to close to us...works every time!”

“Maybe a gallbladder pocket...”

“a colostomy pouch?”

“You're not that old are you steve??!”

“Not yet........




Give me another month”

“I'm curious HPM, exactly how did you get the pack? And this is for an upcoming trip - as in March?”

“HPM is leaving very early this saturday morning for the Smokies. That bag is freaking HUGE. Yes, it is very real.”

“I was curious as I was told my upcoming winter trip to BSP didn't qualify as it was before the "contest" end date.

Then when I quoted HPMs trip date, I was told they wanted people with "good experience"

I'm not saying another word.”

“Hello Melissa,

I can understand your confusion. For the legalities of a contest, we have to go through a certain date before picking winners. however, we are more interested in getting the pack field tested by some people with good experience. So, we can do selected 'evaluations' outside of the contest. (Essentially, it is the way we get around waiting until the end of May to get some evaulations.)

I hope you can understand what we are trying to do with the pack and also get good ideas for the next models we are bringing on. It is not our intention to create an antogonistic situation at all. If we agreed to let you field test our pack model, it would have to be as an independent evaluation and not part of the contest.

On a personal note, it really gets to me seeing the prices that other brands charge for packs. In the 'worst case scenario', a high end full featured, durable pack with tons of addtional pockets, straps, bells/whistles, etc, does not cost over $20 to make. Shipping is about $10 each and duties (tariffs) are about 15% to 20%. That makes a really good pack cost about $35 to get made and delivered. Someone is making a ton of money on the $300 and $400 dollar ones. Our goal is to get a quality product into the stores at a less expensive price the end buyer. (We wholesale ours at $65.) We don't make as much per pack as the other names but we make it up on volume.

Any way, I do appreciate your interest and look forward to hearing back from you.”

“twiggy--you don't have enough experience--hahahahahahaha ;-)”

“Artex got one no problem to take on the very same trip that I proposed...hmmmm....”

“Twiggy, I think I wasn't clear on 'good experience' in my last email. I certainly think you have good experience. I am inclined to send you a pack out of the shipment coming next week so we could get an independent evaluation. But, I am not sure if you wanted one or not after your emails. I took your emails as a little antagonistic in nature but probably just misunderstood the intent. My apologies on the misunderstanding on my part.”

“LMAO! Was that before of after you ignored me, then lied to me, then said I didn't have "good experience?"

Frankly, I was only trying to be nice since everyone else had bashed you. I sure don't need another pack, thanks.”

“Twigy doesn't have any packpacking experience. He just accidentally stumbled upon this site after mispelling the url "www.thebuttpacker.com" and decided it was a good place to hang out ;)”

“LMAO! how did you guess, DeoreDX?”

“8\”

“AdvMstr uttered the following:

In the 'worst case scenario', a high end full featured, durable pack with tons of addtional pockets, straps, bells/whistles, etc, does not cost over $20 to make.

Where to begin, where to begin...

You may be right, in some cases. I've got a friend who had a copy of the GVP pack made and shipped from the Phillipines to him for around $30. It was made by hand for him, to his specifications. However, the pack was based on an established and freely available pattern. The material was bought in bulk, and it is a totally framelss pack.

Your statement about the price ignores a few things about doing business, collectively considered as overhead. You know, little things like:

Rent (office, manufacturing, warehouse)
Distribution chain
Advertising
Research and Development
Employee compensation (wages, insurance)
Capital expenses such as equipment
Taxes
Sponsorships
Shareholder distributions

Business costs, and successful businesses, tend to have larger overhead.

If you go simply by considering the cost of materials, yeah, packs should cost a lot less. If a business sold items simply priced on their materials cost, they'd not last.

You think North Face, Marmot, Kelty or Gregory just think up a design, sketch it and send it to their manufacturing facility and say "stitch up a few hundred of them"? NO! They hire consultants to do market research. They build prototype after prototype and send them out with their sponsored athletes to beat the crap out of them. Then they modify according to the feedback from the market research and the trials, and then send it back out for more abuse.

You want to sell product, you gotta get your name out there, and advertising is the best way to do it. And boy, does it cost!

It costs money to make money, and a business that doesn't factor all those expenses into their product pricing will not make it. Do the heavies charge a lot for their gear? Yes. Could they charge less? Probably. However, it's not, as you imply, a case of them trying to make (using your finished pack cost of $35, and sales for heavies of $300+) $265 or more from every pack sale. Actual profit is per unit is most likely much, much less.”

“that sucks, twiggy! the people at that company are obvious pica-ists. but for real, that ain't right!”

“Interesting thread.

If getting out and backpacking enough was all it took to decide how to make the perfect pack, does it follow that all our packs would be alike eventually if we backpacked enough?

I have a Vaude. Never saw another one on anyone. I like it a lot.”

“Wow, sorry that there's some sort of disagreement but AdvMstr's been very open to the suggestions I made to him and in my limited experience with him he has shown that he is very interesting in our input. The dude sounds genuine to me.

I really have to wonder if I should even bother to post anything regarding the pack as it seems a large chunk of you are only interested in wasting an opprotunity.

BTW: Your flood of ugly emails this morning pretty much drove him off the site. Good job.

Initial thoughts/observations

The size is massive, you need a version at about 4000 to 4500 ci. Currently I strongly discourage scouts from buying anything this big even for weeklong trips. They have a tendency to overload themselves as it is. Top limit for a weeklong trip (for us) is around 5500 ci.

Right off the bat I can see some things that need attention. The first three are major design flaws that place you well behind your competitors.

Problem: The load lifters are non-functional because they do not tie into the actual frame of the pack. Right now the load lifters are sewn into the pack bag and tightening them simply pulls the bag in closer to the shoulder straps and doesn’t do anything for weight transfer.
Solution: The function of load lifter straps is to transfer weight off of the shoulders of the user. The load lifters need to be attached directly to the top end of the stays. When attached correctly tightening the load lifters raises the shoulder straps up and off of the users shoulders and the packbag should only have minimal movement.

Problem: The framesheet sits too high on the packbag. Particularly in the area of the hipbelt. The problem here is that all loaded packs sag to some degree. Having the hip belt and lumbar pad sit on the packbag with two to three inches of packbag hanging below the hipbelt causes the weight of the packbag to not be completely supported by the hipbelt. The enevitable sagging causes that weight to shift downward and rest on the wearers butt not their hips and greatly reduces the effectiveness of the suspension.
Solution: Relocate the entire suspension downwards so that the bottom of the hipbelt is level with bottom of the packbag. Also use much firmer foam in the lumbar pad. This will help keep any sag off of the users butt.

Problem: The bandolier system is unnecessary. I do not see how the bandolier actually helps the pack to ride better. All it does for me is pull the shoulder straps tighter downwards on my shoulders and closer to the centerline of my torso. This is a function already accomplished by the shoulder straps themselves and a sternum strap. Frankly having so many straps is annoying and by making them daisy chains would further the irritation factor by hanging stuff off of them plus the elastic makes it that much more difficult to tighten. Daisy chains are great to have, just not there.
Solution: Remove the bandolier straps and correct the above two issues and use the daisy chaining elsewhere.

Dislike and Suggestion: The zippered slab pocket is too small to use for anything other than a map. I’d remove it and replace it with a large mesh pocket with an elastic top. Put daisy chain loops on either side of it.

Dislike and Suggestion: Make to top lid removeable so it can be used as a fanny pack. I’d remove the whole Velcro flap adjustment thing. I don’t think it’s necessary and some

Dislike and Suggestion: The pack lid cinch straps are stitched too high on the pack. If the pack isn’t loaded with a lot of stuff it’s difficult to tighten the pack lid down effectively. I’d move them about halfway down the pack.

Like and Suggestion: The water bottle pockets are huge and I like that. However you can reduce weight by making those pockets out of mesh with an elastic opening.

Like and Suggestion: I really like having a pocket on the hip belt but as designed currently its only useable for very small items and when the stabilizer straps are tight it’s harder to get in and out of. I would remove the pocket IN the hip belt and replace it with a slightly larger pocket (about as big as a bag of gorp or a average to small camera) ON the hip belt that sits over the top of the stabilizer straps. A really cool bonus would be the ability for the user to move that pocket from left side to right side while wearing the pack.

Suggestion: On the pack bag divider cut two triangular openings about the diameter of a soda can in the divider. Each one located on either side of the frame sheet. The reasoning behind that is to enable the user to carry tall and thin items inside the pack bag as well as outside. Many people hate to have anything outside of their pack bag.

Suggestion: Use a different material for the pack. For a pack this size I’d suggest using 210 Spectra Gridstop fabric. It is very strong, light and will carry a heavy load much better than silnylon.

Leave it alone: I like the built in mesh pocket in the sleeping bag compartment. Nice touch.

Leave it alone: The torso length adjustment works well. No problems.

Leave it alone: Side compression straps work fine. Although they are not unique as stated on the website.

I do have reservations about using the pack next week with the suspension built as it is. I know I’ll have issues with it carrying a load but I’ll give it a go. Most likely

So right now I’d call this a good first shot at a product prototype. Other than the suspension issues all it needs is refinement. The construction and stitch quality looks as good as anything else I’ve seen, the fabric used is a proven material although a bit heavy by current standards. The padding on the shoulder straps and hip belt is enough to get the job done with a degree of comfort. (I’ve used packs with more -Dana Terraplane- and less -Kelty Flight- and been happy with both)

Your turn, flame away.”

“ damn closing tags”

“"BTW: Your flood of ugly emails this morning pretty much drove him off the site. Good job."

HPM, I've been thinking about that statement and I'm curious what you meant by that. It sounds strange to me that TTers would flood someone with "ugly" e-mails.”