Spain Bends Over for AL'Qeuda

“Hear, hear, MarkO! If you don't blend the one philosophy with the other, you get a big mess.”

“LeSubtil made a good point. The election in spain had much more to it than economics.”

“Isn't Tony Blair's Labour party socialist-lite?

If Britain gets attacked and Blair gets the boot will the TT conservatives be cheering?

Viscous indeed!”

“I drink only Socialist Lite! It comes in green for Saint Paddy's Day!”

“Thick? Gooey? High surface tension?”

“Whoa Cowboy.....I never called you stupid. But if you think that the shoe fits, wear it. You shouldn't say that about yourself. I'm just amazed that a working class dewd like you has fallen for that crap.

I don't need someone to validate my beliefs as you said about yourself. Insecure are ya? Thinking for yourself? Sheesh!”

“Flyguy, to be honest, I'm not sad about the election or losing any sleep. I just don't agree with socialism. That's all.”

“yeah - Blair is of the Labour party, and much of the labour party is "Socialist". Blair has simply taken the party on a more centralist route to allow election wins.

And it's right to point out that Spain will still be a capitalist country, it will simply now take a slightly more left wing course than under it's previous PM.
Businesses will still function freely, but maybe not have the influence it does in the US.
Whoever won in Spain there will still be things like free healthcare and a welfare state in place.
The press will still function freely, and there won't be any gulags opening soon.

View the term Socialist as opposed to conservative, rather like Kerry winning and America having a liberal government rather than conservative.
This wouldn't suddenly mean America abandoning capitalism.”

“Jesus was a socialist.”

“I bet he wasn't a Kansa fan.”

“or Kansas even.”

“Thnaks Dunadan. You just gave me a great thread title.”

“Or Thanks even...”

“You're most welcome, Jersey.”

“"Thick? Gooey? High surface tension?"
Tilt
12:18:41 PM

Yeah Tilt!

Thick, as a brick.


And you guys thought I couldn't spell.”

“You are a viscious wicked speller, TomT.”

“Jesus was also way cool. he turned water into Wine! He could have grown the best weed!”

“"limbaugh... is very good at what he does"
- stratdewd
10:35:19 AM



4350 pills in 47 days. Very, very good at what he does.”

“I believe Tilt has finally lost it!”

“(aHem)”

“Too Wierd!”

“I'm just getting started....”

“Life begins at 40.”

“"mutt, what do you disagree with from my post? i'll debate it with you. the point of my post was to show the lack of debating skills of phaedrus. you just called me stupid, like he did."

Debating Skills? Stratdude?!!

This from the man that runs off at the mouth but cites nothing to back it up?

You don't have debating skills Strat.

A debate requires that you back up your points with facts from named sources. Several times you have been asked to back up your words with some actual facts. You still haven't.
I challenge you to cite one post of yours that actually uses facts to back it up.
You want to prove me wrong, then cite the thread here. Otherwise, go learn how to debate.

And, uh, oh yeh, debaters do not need to use the word a$$hole. Name calling indicates an inability to make ones point intelligently.”

“nice try red-dork.


maybe if you keep practicing, you will become a masterdebater....



NEXT?”

“SMW, could you tell me WHO believes that the US should become socialist? I know there are some people out there that you could find on the internet, but who on the board has advocated that?

Strat, you're unable to debate the issue. You have a lack of understanding of basic political science. Sorry, but you're ignorant on most of the issues we've discussed. I've started disregarding your posts because they are beneath consideration in general.

"critical thinking is just a way for liberals to muddy the watrers and cause doupt inn the minds of people who are trying to think for themselves.

...

JIHAD TRUTH!"
stratdewd
01:06:57 AM
03/09/04"


Carry on.”

“It's too bad that again, Rush makes his way into changing the meaning of words.

"but who on the board has advocated that?......"


As Rush would say, anyone who votes Dem, is a socialist. It's the same thing that Reagan (or was it Bush I?) said about being a "card carry liberial", like this is suppose to be next to the devil.

Speaking of, has anyone noticed how Coulter, Hannity, Savage, et al all have books titled "Treason", Deliver Us from Evil" and all these negitive titles.......and they call the Dems "paranoid".

I don't know bout y'all, but that chit is getting real old.....quick!”

“And then Strat calls anyone who disagrees with Rush a mind-numbed robot?

The irony is oozing from my keyboard as I write this.”

“Hopefully the people in this country will have the same outrage with this administration and follow the lead of the spanish people.
redhawk
05:25:42 PM
03/15/04

In order to follow the lead of the spanish people, US citizens would have to vote for someone more socialist than the current leader. I think Kerry fits that bill.

And laqtis, don't make the mistake of attributing all conservative thinking to Rush. I don't have the slightest idea how he interprets socialism, and am somewhat offended that you would so hastily jump to inaccurate conclusions.”

“I wouldn't get too worked up there, SMW. Taint worth it, seeing that I didn't say YOU, or HIM, or HER.....


I said "As Rush would say, anyone who votes Dem, is a socialist......"

in response to the question. I didn't say 'EVERYONE ON THIS BOARD THAT'S A REPUB SEZ ALL DEMS ARE SOCIALISTS".....

Cripes! can I buy ya a beer? I can hit the store on the way home from work!”

“No blood no foul.”

“And if I keep posting, it's not to argue, but with the much more important goal of burying that stupid nightcrawlers thread.”

“LOL Stick. BTW - I hope you don't mind Harp. I'll save ya one!”

“I don't really get mad about stuff on the board. I just say things like that with tongue in cheek. We aren't going to solve the world's problems. They should let us try though.”

“I keep seeing this thread.... and I get the sneaking suspicion that someone was thinking of a Hemi al Cuda when they typed the title.”

“Right On, Stick!”

“"nice try red-dork.
maybe if you keep practicing, you will become a masterdebater...."
"stratdude"

See exactly my point. When you resort to namecalling and disrespect, you lose. It just bears out what I said, you don't have any debating SKILLS.

I gave you the opportunity to prove that I was misspeaking by citing any post of yours in which you backed up your words with facts.

Your reaction was to be disrespectul and insulting.

So, it would seem that my statement about your debating skills (actually lack of) was accurate.

I don't have to resort to name calling.I am neither that desperate nor disrespectful of others with different opinions.

I can admire people who are able to make their points with clarity and refute what I have to say with facts. In fact I often play the devils advocate in order to enjoy a good contest

I keep saying, back your statements up with facts and you just keep on rambling on and calling people names. The more you talk the more reasons you give people in this forum to disregard anything you have to say.

When you're old enough to have experienced enough to have learned enough, maybe you'll understand what I am talking about.”

“"Shout loud enough, ridicule the other point of view and maybe people won't notice you don't have any facts to support your argument."

Guess when you don't have brains or class you have to compensate. Irony is that he probably gets more votes for the democrats from independents.

Hopefully the American Public is as bright and as outraged."
redhawk



now if i'm not mistaken , that is an insulting & disrespectful thing to say to me. the FACT , is you did it first so get over it.

i'll admit red, if that's your reallllll name, that you are one of the more polite guys on here. you say stuff alla time that is your opinion, not a proven fact.


As Rush would say, anyone who votes Dem, is a socialist
laqtis

here's a great example. laqtis, please show us some facts to back up this statement.”

“Hopefully the people in this country will have the same outrage with this administration and follow the lead of the spanish people.
redhawk
05:25:42 PM
03/15/04

In order to follow the lead of the spanish people, US citizens would have to vote for someone more socialist than the current leader. I think Kerry fits that bill.


That's directly akin to saying George W Bush is a more fascist candidate. Kerry is by no means socialist, nor is W Fascist. While we might disagree with where the line should be drawn, you and I share capitalist democratic ideals with Kerry and Bush.

The lines are generally drawn over social program spending and taxes, but to call one "more socialist" or "more fascist" is fundamentally incorrect by degrees.

Besides all that, I think Redhawk was only referring to the American people following the lead of the Spanish people in electing a new regime. The rest I can't speak for in his stead, but the comment didn't strike me the way it did you.”

“This ousted Spanish government was in cahoots with Bushie. They both operate in the same manner of deception and coverup.


MADRID, March 16 - In the first frantic hours after coordinated bomb blasts ripped through several packed commuter trains Thursday morning, the government of outgoing Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar undertook an intense campaign to convince the Spanish public and world opinion-makers that the Basque separatist group ETA had carried out the attacks, which killed 201 people and wounded more than 1,500.


Beginning immediately after the blasts, Aznar and other officials telephoned journalists, stressing ETA's responsibility and dismissing speculation that Islamic extremists might be involved. Spanish diplomats pushed a hastily drafted resolution blaming ETA through the U.N. Security Council. At an afternoon news conference, when a reporter suggested the possibility of an al Qaeda connection, the interior minister, Angel Acebes, angrily denounced it as "a miserable attempt to disrupt information and confuse people."

"There is no doubt that ETA is responsible," Acebes said.



Within days, that assertion was in tatters, and with it the reputation and fortunes of the ruling party. Suspicion that the government manipulated information -- blaming ETA in order to divert any possible link between the bombings and Aznar's unpopular support for the war in Iraq -- helped fuel the upset victory of the Socialist Workers' Party in Sunday's elections. By then, Islamic extremists linked to al Qaeda had become the focus of the investigation.


There were signs that the government was at least selective in releasing information about possible culprits. By 11 a.m. Thursday, police had already discovered an abandoned white van in Alcala de Henares -- a town where the bombed trains passed through -- containing seven detonators and a cassette tape containing verses of the Koran recited in Arabic, officials said later. Sources familiar with Spanish intelligence services said the CNI, the National Intelligence Center, had suspected al Qaeda from the beginning.

The existence of a potential link to Islamic radicals was not revealed to the public until just before King Juan Carlos spoke on national television at 8:30 p.m.

Significantly, Spanish observers said, the king, in his solemn address, expressed confidence that "the criminals will be put in prison," but never mentioned ETA or any other possible culprit. Asked whether the king was satisfied with the way the government had handled information, the palace declined to respond, citing its customary refusal to comment on government matters.

The first bomb went off at 7:39 a.m., on a jam-packed commuter train at the Atocha station in central Madrid. By 7:42, 10 bombs had exploded -- seven at Atocha, two at nearby El Pozo station and one at Santa Eugenia. Although the initial figures put the death toll at about 20, authorities knew the number would rise dramatically and that this would be the worst terrorist attack in Spanish history.

That was when officials began their campaign to pin the blame on ETA, which the Aznar government has pursued vigorously and successfully.

The government had good reason to suspect ETA, whose initials in Basque stand for Basque Homeland and Freedom. The group has killed hundreds of civilians in terrorist attacks stretching back decades. Police reported on Christmas Eve having thwarted an ETA plot to set off two bombs at a Madrid train station. On Feb. 29, police arrested two ETA members near Madrid as they drove a van packed with a half-ton of explosives.

'ETA terrorist outrage'
Immediately after Thursday's bombings, Foreign Minister Ana Palacio telephoned her British counterpart, Foreign Secretary Jack Straw, to say that it was ETA, according to a British official, who added, "We had no independent evidence of our own that the Spanish were wrong." Less than two hours later, Straw was on television saying, "It looks to be an ETA terrorist outrage, and that is the information we've received from Madrid."

At the same time, the Spanish Foreign Ministry was sending instructions to its embassies, saying diplomats "should use any opportunity to confirm ETA's responsibility for these brutal attacks," according to a copy of the letter published in the Spanish daily El Pais. Spanish officials have confirmed that the instructions went out, but said they were only for "guidance."”

“As Rush would say, anyone who votes Dem, is a socialist
laqtis

here's a great example. laqtis, please show us some facts to back up this statement."
stratdewd
12:37:58 AM
03/17/04


He should have said: as Stratdewd would say...

You are the one who has constantly equated left-leaning americans with socialism, and now you want to try to squirm out of it. Grow a pair, strat.”

“It didn't strike me that way either, I was just being petty. We've hashed this socialist thing to death. I just don't agree with socialism, no matter how mild. But hey, I'll be the first to admit I don't have the answers.”

“You mean like labor unions and social security? You'd like to do away with those forms of socialism?

How about monopoly guidelines and FCC regulations?”

“And just so we're talking apples to apples:

so·cial·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ssh-lzm)
n.
Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.”

“I think labor unions are a shell of what they used to be, and that many people use them to get out of work. Sure there are good people involved with them, like Buddha Bear, but they aren't as needed as they once were. Take Toyota for example. Great pay and benefits without the union. Social Security I haven't really given much thought to, due to the fact that I'm so young, I suppose. From what I've heard, it needs fixing, but no one knows how to do it.”

“"In order to follow the lead of the spanish people, US citizens would have to vote for someone more socialist than the current leader. I think Kerry fits that bill.
StickmanWalking"

Actually Kerry IS more Socialist then Bush, more social too.

But you miss the point.

The Spaniards did NOT vote FOR a socialist administration.

They voted AGAINST an administration that was trying to deceive them about who was behind the bombing.

So if the American People follow suit, they will vote against the current administration which has been deceitful about many things.

Here is my challenge.

List me the things that George W Bush has accomplished that makes our lives better today then they were 4 years ago.

I don't feel safer, in fact I feel more threatened by retaliation now then before 911.

We do not have Osama Bin Laden in custody.

I have less civil rights today then I did for years ago.

I am worse off financially then I was four years ago.

Seems as if more people are being killed in Iraq today then there were four years ago.

Bush vowed to take action aainst any country that supported terrorists, yet nothing is being done to Saudi's or Pakistanis.

We have found no WMD in Iraq.

North Korea has Nukes for real, documented, admitted. it is a repressive regime that practices genocides on it's own people. Bush isn't threatening them as he did Iraq.

Bush's road map to peace in the Mideast has hit a roadblock.

Social Security is in worse shape than it was four years ago.

He have gone from $$Billions surplus to $$$Billions deficit in the last four years.

We are literally alone in the world haven turned almost all of opur allies and the world against us because of Gunboat Diplomacy.

Iraq is still unstable. American soldiers are being killed daily as well as civilians.

OK your turn to cite the positives!!”

“What is being lost in all this bare-chested breast beating about Spain’s allegedly going soft on terrorism is the fact that the war on Iraq had nothing to do with terrorism; just ask the CIA. Check that. It’s not that it had nothing to do with it. It has inspired quite a bit of it, as Bush was warned in advance. His obsession was so strong however that he was willing to place the nation in greater danger, while simultaneously falling down on the job when it came to the real business of fighting terrorism, be it in tracking down Al Qaida and Taliban remnants in Afghanistan or protecting the nation’s security here at home. If Spain pulls out of Iraq, that will allow their security forces to better protect them from terrorism, just as Americans would be better protected if we had never gone to Iraq in the first place.”

“Okay, I'm with you, but my point is that most of the left's ideas in the US should be debated on their own merits. When someone like Strat starts screaming socialism, he's engaging in a straw-man fallacy by refusing to debate the actual position of the left - instead substituting the spectre of socialism.

It's sort of like me saying that people who own guns want a return to the wild west. It's untrue and distracts from the actual debate.”

“My last post was for SMW.”