Economic Politics

“you yanks are weird, wanting to improve your country and make it a better place in "unpatriotic."

I guess that Bush is unpatriotic for suggesting that Social Security is "in Crisis."”

“Y2, it is unpatriotic to compile lists. Pay attention.”

“Bush is a liar for suggesting that Social Security is in crisis.

Conservative elements in this country have tried to dump Social Security since 1935.

This latest scam is simply the first shots in a campaign to destroy it.”

“IT'S ONLY FUNNY UNTIL SOMEONE LOSES A PIE
Wed Apr 13,10:01 PM ET Op/Ed - Ann Coulter

By Ann Coulter

Liberals enjoy claiming that they are intellectuals, thrilled to engage in a battle of wits. This, they believe, distinguishes them from conservatives, who are religious fanatics who react with impotent rage to opposing ideas. As one liberal, Jonathan Chait, put the cliche in The New Republic: Bush is an "instinctive anti-intellectual" and his administration hostile to "fact-driven debate." In a favorable contrast, Clinton is "the former Rhodes scholar who relished academic debates." Showing his usual reverence for fact-checking, The New York Times' Paul Krugman says the Republican Party is "dominated by people who believe truth should be determined by revelation, not research."

I'm not sure how these descriptions square with the fact that liberals keep responding to conservative ideas by throwing food. (Remember the good old days when liberals' "fact-driven" ideas only meant throwing money at their problems?)

Last October, two liberals responded to my speech at the University of Arizona -- during question and answer, no less -- by charging the stage and throwing two pies at me from a few yards away. Fortunately for me, liberals not only argue like liberals, they also throw like girls. (Apologies in advance to the Harvard biology professors who walked out on Larry Summers in a demonstration of their admiration of "research," not "revelation" -- but this may account for the dearth of female pitchers in Major League Baseball.)

Unfortunately for them, Republican men don't react favorably to two "Deliverance" boys trying to sucker-punch a 110-pound female in a skirt and heels. The geniuses ended up with bloody noses and broken bones.

It's really outrageous how conservatives respond to liberals who are just trying to engage in a "fact-driven debate." How typical of Republicans to go on the offensive just because a female has been physically attacked. Instead of capturing and subduing my attackers, those strong Republican men should have been trying to understand why they threw the pies.

In the five months following the liberal ass-whupping in Arizona -- I mean "fact-driven debate" -- all was quiet on the Eastern Front. College liberals still couldn't formulate a coherent argument, but they seemed to want to avoid ending up in jail having to explain to their cellmates that they were in for trying to hit a girl (and missing).

Then on March 19, all charges were dismissed against the "Deliverance" boys -- including a felony charge for $3,000 worth of damage to school property. Inexplicably, this outcome did not instantly lead to widespread rioting and looting in South Central Los Angeles.

Democrat Barbara LaWall is the Pima County attorney who allowed the liberal debate champions to walk. LaWall brags on her Web site about "holding criminals accountable." She didn't say anything about liberals, however. Be forewarned, conservatives: Do not expect the law to protect you in Pima County.

In the three weeks following the dismissal of all charges against my attackers, three more conservatives were attacked on college campuses.

On March 29, liberals' intellectual retort to a speech by William Kristol at Earlham College was to throw a pie. On March 31, liberals enjoyed the hurly-burly of political debate with Pat Buchanan at Western Michigan University by throwing salad dressing. On April 6, liberals engaged David Horowitz on his ideas at Butler University by throwing a pie at him.

If you close your eyes, it's almost like you're listening to Ludwig Wittgenstein!

If there had been that many attacks on Muslims in the weeks following the 9/11 attack, we'd still be watching Showtime specials about it. (In liberals' defense, this is what they must resort to when there are no student newspapers with conservative editorials to burn.)

At the risk of provoking one of those brainy liberals to throw more food, here's an idea: In order to reduce physical assaults on conservative speakers, maybe we should increase the price. But, to the contrary, when conservative speakers are physically attacked on college campuses, university administrators ignore the attacks, Democrat prosecutors somehow manage to get the charges dismissed, and Democrat flacks like Chait and Krugman pretend they missed the news that day.

What might work better is some form of disincentive to liberals who engage in violent behavior whenever they hear an idea they don't like but can't come up with words to dispute. The punishment doesn't have to be severe -- just a small fraction of the wailing and healing that occurs every time there's a hoax "hate crime" on a college campus. (But which still serve a valuable function by calling attention to the issue of hate crimes.)

Last year, classes were canceled and demonstrations held at Claremont College after a white, Catholic visiting professor claimed her car had been vandalized with racist and anti-Semitic slurs. This -- at the very moment she was giving a talk on intolerance!

It was just a little too ironic. The incident had all the exquisite timing of an "ABC After-School Special" about hate crimes. But as one student angrily told the Los Angeles Times, the suggestion that it was a hoax is "so sick. They are in denial. People don't want to accept that a well-educated, liberal community can have hate." Needless to say, the vandalism turned out to have been perpetrated by the professor herself.

Or maybe physical attacks on conservatives could merit a small slice of the rage and indignation directed at the display of racist symbols. Last year, a white student at a high school in Washington State was accused of taunting a black student with a noose. In response, the white student was immediately expelled from school. He was charged with a felony. There was a series of town-wide discussions. The U.S. Justice Department sent in mediators. And two more years were suddenly added to Whoopi Goldberg's career.

I think Kristol, Buchanan, Horowitz and I would be perfectly happy if college liberals merely brandished symbols at us. Speaking for myself, I would be unhappy if they didn't. But these Rhodes scholar geniuses with a taste for "fact-driven debate" can't even achieve the level of argument practiced by the average juvenile delinquent. They're still stuck at the intellectual level of 2-year-olds in high chairs throwing food.

----end of cut and paste-----

I guess this is how V spends his life :-(
and after the many references to Ann in the post above I decided to cr@p on the picnic table by posting one of her columns LOL.”

“poor little helpless girly that she is.”

“She is a conservative .. do you really believe that she weighs 110 lbs ?”

“There's at least 110 lbs of fecal matter hidden in there somewhere, that's for sure...
last edited: 4/27/05 3:35:29 PM”

“Phaedrus - I stand by what I said about Rush and Hannity. I rarely listen to Rush anymore because I find him monotonous, but I stand by the statement.

Mischaracterizing a laundry list of attacks against characteristics of America (not mentioning the lists validity), or more specifically, a list of what is wrong with America, by comparing it to specific attacks against specific people for their policies is wasting our time.

Saying what is wrong with a policy can be a great thing.

Saying what is wrong with America in the way that was used in this thread, by definition, is unpatriotic.

Again, if you think you're fooling anybody with your "I'm just doing my duty" crap, you are - you're fooling yourself.
last edited: 4/27/05 3:41:28 PM”

“sarge would make a better Stalinist than American.

The state is beyond criticism?

Kim Jong Il could use a guy like sarge.”

“No Sarge, a list of points were made to illustrate the foolishness of those who insist everything is perfect. The-head-in the-sanders.”

“I'm still waiting for a name.

Who exactly is saying everything is perfect?

Where have you heard that?

VioLiN - Very funny. Makes no sense considering what I posted, but very funny.”

“So I guess what sarge is saying is that the very concept of America is unpatriotic, as it's based on a bunch of people unhappy with their government rebelling against it and setting up thier own country. You don't get much more unpatriotic than that. Almost the entire population of American comes from people who at one time or another have foresaken their own flag to become Americans.
So isn't America the most unpatriotic nation on earth, driven by putting their own self interest above that of the national interest?
last edited: 4/27/05 4:34:27 PM”

“So I guess what y2 is saying is that black people should be hung.”

“So you don't understand at all then Sarge?”

“y2 - Your post is so flawed, I seriously hesitate to respond to it. But, what the heck.

So I guess what sarge is saying is that the very concept of America is unpatriotic, as it's based on a bunch of people unhappy with their government rebelling against it and setting up thier own country.

Please tell me where I said that rebelling against your government's policies are unpatriotic. That's how this country was founded, and I did not say it was unpatriotic. In fact, what I did say, is that it was often a good thing. I said I protested my government less than 2 weeks ago. Where do you get this crap y2?

You don't get much more unpatriotic than that. Almost the entire population of American comes from people who at one time or another have foresaken their own flag to become Americans.

Since that statement is entirely incorrect, maybe we should just move along.

So isn't America the most unpatriotic nation on earth, driven by putting their own self interest above that of the national interest?

Since the premise of your question is ridiculous and incorrect, it's not worth answering.

y2 - If you are just trolling, good job. Otherwise, you might learn something if you stop putting incorrect words in other people's mouths, so to speak.”

“So you don't understand at all then Sarge?

My point is your argument is a straw man. Yes, I said it again. Straw man straw man straw man straw man straw man straw man straw man ... I use that term often only because that fallacy is often used.”

“Have you ever heard them make a laundry list of complaints about America? That's not how the operate. If that's what they did, you wouldn't know their names.

Again, pointing out something that needs pointing out is one thing. Going down a laundry list of flaws is not loving, productive, or helpful. It's hateful.

I'm sure the revolutiuonaries compiled a list of greviances against the british crown, how unpatriotic.”

“y2 - Wow, you really don't get it, do you? I'll tell you what - you find me a "laundry list" similar to the one that was posted on here which comes from any of the revolutionists from a reliable source and I'll concede the point.”

“He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.

He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.

He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.

He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.

He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected; whereby the Legislative powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.

He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.

He has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary powers.

He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone, for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.

He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people, and eat out their substance.

He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the consent of our legislatures.

He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil power.

He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:

For Quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:

For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:

For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:

For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:

For depriving us, in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury:

For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences:

For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies:

For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws, and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:

For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.

He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.

He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.

He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty and perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.

He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.

He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our British brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which, would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.

We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by the Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.

The signers of the Declaration represented the new states as follows:

New Hampshire
Josiah Bartlett, William Whipple, Matthew Thornton

Massachusetts
John Hancock, Samual Adams, John Adams, Robert Treat Paine, Elbridge Gerry

Rhode Island
Stephen Hopkins, William Ellery

Connecticut
Roger Sherman, Samuel Huntington, William Williams, Oliver Wolcott

New York
William Floyd, Philip Livingston, Francis Lewis, Lewis Morris

New Jersey
Richard Stockton, John Witherspoon, Francis Hopkinson, John Hart, Abraham Clark

Pennsylvania
Robert Morris, Benjamin Rush, Benjamin Franklin, John Morton, George Clymer, James Smith, George Taylor, James Wilson, George Ross

Delaware
Caesar Rodney, George Read, Thomas McKean

Maryland
Samuel Chase, William Paca, Thomas Stone, Charles Carroll of Carrollton

Virginia
George Wythe, Richard Henry Lee, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Harrison, Thomas Nelson, Jr., Francis Lightfoot Lee, Carter Braxton

North Carolina
William Hooper, Joseph Hewes, John Penn

South Carolina
Edward Rutledge, Thomas Heyward, Jr., Thomas Lynch, Jr., Arthur Middleton

Georgia
Button Gwinnett, Lyman Hall, George Walton

For additional information about the Declaration of Independence, see these sites:

National Archives and Records Administration: Declaration of Independence
Library of Congress: About the Declaration of Independence

Look familiar at all?”

“y2 - Maybe you missed it (for the ??th time).

The laundry list isn't against one person - i.e. - A King. The laundry list is against everything American.

The DOI is not against England. It's against a King, and for a very specific reason - he took away and refuses to give them their freedoms.

The DOI is not a declaration against a multitude of characteristics of a country. It's a declaration against a tyrant. All these guys did was leave one country and start another because they wanted freedom. That has no resemblence to the #&%!$ing and moaning against America itself represented in the post on this thread.

You are obviously trolling at this point, and I have to go. Have fun.”

“By the way y2, you forgot the most important part ... the point of the document which was clearly removed from your snip. So you're telling me that the unpatriotic post on this site was made for the reason of the DOI? That's funny, not according to everyone else on this thread. Read it and weap:

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. —Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain [George III] is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world. ”

“It seems I got Sarge all in a tussy. I was just telling him not all is rosy in the US and we need to fix it. I had a lot more fun painting my house than bickering here.


Everything is wonderful in bubble land. Go out and get yourself some more debt and make the world go round. Just stay away from spikes.”

“bateaux - Since you obviously haven't got the point yet - I'll put it in baby language for you.

It's not what you said, it's how you said it.”

“"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped
in the flag and carrying the cross"
-- Sinclair Lewis



"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed.
Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being
self-evident."
-- Arthur Schopenhauer

"The truth is incontrovertible, malice may attack it,
ignorance may deride it, but in the end; there it is."
-- Sir Winston Churchill

"We are apt to close our eyes against a painful truth."
-- Patrick Henry

"During times of universal deceit, telling
the truth becomes a revolutionary act."
-- George Orwell

"The greatest kindness one can render to any man consists
in leading him from error to truth."
-- St. Thomas Aquinas

"Dissent is the highest form of patriotism."
-- Thomas Jefferson

"On the altar of God, I pledge undying hostility to any
government restrictions on the free minds of the people."
-- Thomas Jefferson - The favored quote at the highest point
in the Rotunda at the Jefferson Memorial.

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president,
or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is
not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
to the American public."
-- Theodore Roosevelt

"Patriotism means to stand by the country.
It does not mean to stand by the President."
-- Theodore Roosevelt

"Patriotism is not loving your Government, A Patriot is one
that loves their country and watches their Government."
-- Unknown

"Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a
little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-- Benjamin Franklin

"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free...
it expects what never was and never will be."
-- Thomas Jefferson

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely
believe they are free."
-- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

"He who is the author of a war lets loose the whole contagion
of hell and opens a vein that bleeds a nation to death."
-- Thomas Paine

"Every gun that's made, every warship launched, every rocket fired,
signifies a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who
are cold and not clothed. This world in arms...is spending the
genius of its scientists, the sweat of its laborers,"
-- Dwight David Eisenhower

"The problems in the world today are so enormous they cannot
be solved with the level of thinking that created them."
-- Albert Einstein

"The process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary
change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic
and catalyzing event -- like a new Pearl Harbor" (2000)
-- Project for a New American Century

"We are on the verge of a global transformation. All we need
is the right major crisis and the nations will accept the
New World Order."
-- David Rockefeller

"All it takes for evil to flourish is for good men (and women)
to do nothing."
-- Edmund Burke

"Fear can only prevail when victims are ignorant of the facts."
-- Thomas Jefferson

"He who knows nothing is nearer to the truth than he
whose mind is filled with falsehoods and errors."
-- Thomas Jefferson

"I am concerned for the security of our great nation, not so
much because of any threat from without, but because of the
insidious forces working from within."
-— General Douglas MacArthur

"It is well that the people of the nation do not understand our
banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there
would be a revolution before tomorrow morning."
--Henry Ford

"The first stage of fascism should more appropriately be called
Corporatism because it is a merger of State and corporate power."
-- Mussolini

"Those who cast the votes decide nothing,
Those who count the votes decide everything."
-- Josef Stalin

"The last time we mixed religion and politics - people
were burned at the stake."

"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped
in the flag and carrying the cross"
-- Sinclair Lewis”

“If the person who said "The last time we mixed religion and politics - people were burned at the stake." is smarter than you ... that's not saying much for your thinking abilities.

Those quotes don't impress me. I've seen them a million times. (a million and one if you count the one you posted twice)

A quote is not an ideology. It's a log of an idea.

(you can quote me on that one)”

“sarge, I knew it wouldn't last. I see your wearing your Rose colored glasses again
last edited: 4/27/05 10:17:39 PM”

“Ewker - Back to throwing around personal insults again instead of talking about the subject at hand. Typical.

I don't know what you are even referring to, but then again, I don't care.”

“insult?? you are super sensitive to any comment that a person makes.”

“If you aren't polite to America, you must not love her. She's like your wife, and if she tells you to do the dishes, and you don't, well goddamn it, you're not gettin any poon tonight, sonny. And you don't love her.

Yewker, ya unpatriotic dingleberried slack-ass.

I love my country and would never insult anyone in it or any idea anyone ever called American, er else I'd be a damn commie pinko terrorist sympathizer!”

“Phaedrus - Why is it that you have to mischaracterize my argument and the discussion itself in order to debate it? Whatever helps you make your case, I suppose.

Ewker - whatever. Why is it that you have to talk about me instead of the topic at hand? Whatever helps you make your case, I suppose.”

“sarge, you are friggin amazing. It wouldn't matter what I or anyone else said. You don't believe it even when facts are supplied. Hence why the Rose colored glasses comment was made.


If you think the US is still number 1 in all of the items bateauxdriver metioned you are sadly mistaken.

Reports come out each yr how high school students are falling behind in math and science. Most states have exit exams that you have to take to graduate from high school. It doesn't matter what your grades were during your senior year you still have to take it. You don't pass you don't graduate. Problem is this test is based on a 8th grade level.

The US is not the leading exporter anymore. We import more than we export.

Get those glasses off!!”

“Sarge, admitting there is a problem is the first step. When all things USA are added together as a whole, I certainly believe that we are #1. We were not always #1 nor will we always be #1. We will someday be surpassed just as every world leader in the past has been. I do believe that if we address the problems areas now, that we can extend our time at the top. Our armor and sword are not nuclear bombs or aircraft carriers. Our protection is our industrial base, our education system, our health care system, our transportation system, etc. Holes are being poked in that armor right now by the huge national debt and loss of our industrial base. Like I said in my first post, this has been going on for decades. The best time to fix a roof is before it starts to leak. The next best time to fix a leaking roof is today.”

“Hater.”

“Sarge, your arguments are often so nonsensical that I often mischaracterize them by the very act of trying to apply reason to them.

Look at what we're talking about in this instance:

It's okay to criticize the US and still be a patriot if you do it in the following manner:

1. No lists
2. Don't be too critical
3. Criticize individual policies or people, but ignore the larger effects on population or culture, even if they're obvious.

Why? Because Sarge says so.

Who elected you Patriot Emeritus?”

“I wonder if sarge criticized Clinton when he was President. If so he was a hater of America.

Sarge, you don't get it as usual.”

“I don't know about Sarge, but I criticized Clinton about many things. I'm a lifelong Republican but, looking back in retrospect, I realize that many of those things, I disagreed on with Clinton now I agree with. For instance the Brady Bill and national health care. I thought those were extremely bad idea then but now I support them. Anybody remember the V-Chip controversy?”

“And Sarge - The king was criticized not as an individual, but as the crown, or leader of the country. The taxes and restrictions came largely from Parliament. So while they were criticizing an individual, the actually mean the Crown, or the Government.”

“bateauxdriver, just because you criticized Clinton didn't mean you hated America. Some people just don't get that. They think that if you criticize the US in any way shape or form you hate it.”

“There is a name for the form of government where the leader is fused with the military and the nation. No criticism of any is permitted. Its not called ‘democracy’ though.”

“Violin, we're a republic. Don't you know anything?”

“y2 (and others) -

Look, criticizing something that needs correcting is one thing.

Making a laundry list of what is wrong with America is another.

If you don't understand that, I'm sorry. There is a part of your brain that hasn't developed properly which I have no control over and will not correct here on this forum.”

“If you don't believe me ...

Go to your wife (or husband) and say to them "Honey, I think you were a little hard on the Beav today."

Then, the next day, say to her (or him) "Let me tell you what is wrong with you. Your breath stinks; you're tough on the Beav; you can't drive; you hair needs combed; you can't cook; you cuss too much; you snore"

So you're going to tell me they're the same thing?

Ok. Whatever.”

“


last edited: 4/28/05 1:27:37 PM”

“Sarge, your argument has come down to this:

Appeal to emotion (love)
False equation of love and patriotism
False equation of wife and country
and a hearty dose of appeal to popular belief (you're not fooling ANYone).

Stick that in your straw man and stroke it.”

“Phaedrus - If you want to discuss these individual point, I'll be glad to. Otherwise, you're just being hateful and not trying to resolve anything. Wow. That sounds familiar.”

“I don't hate you, but I reserve my right to make lists and call you a red white and blue dingleberry.

The point has been made well, I think. Your definition of patriotism is flawed in a logical sense. If you're saying specifically that the lists above offend your personal sensibilities in regard to your personal feelings about your country, I'll accept that. Speaking in a more general sense about absolutes in regard to patriotism and criticism and applying your personal sensibilities to those as the rule, however, is a crock of false self-righteousness.”

“You insist on discounting the wife analogy, not because it's different, but because you would have to reveal that laundry lists of what is wrong with someone or something is not productive. It doesn't help anything. You know it, I know it, we all know it. You cannot admit that because it destroys your argument. Instead of talking about the matter at hand you'd rather talk about me and my self-righteousness.

Typical.”

“When starting a project here at work, We generally produce a "laundry list" of flaws in the current process. Anyone who didn't know any better would think we hate our jobs, right? Things have improved drastically taking this approach.

It's a plain silly analogy. A government is a series of procedures, ideals and laws. A person is a person.”

“It's a plain silly analogy. A government is a series of procedures, ideals and laws. A person is a person.”
Phaedrus
4:28:34 PM
4/28/05

Phaedrus, that is to easy for him to understand.”

“WOW! Sorry violin, I got here late and it looks like the party's already started.

Interesting article. Are you a Monetarist, violin, or were you just posting that for fun?

I always thought you were a Keynesian. Or maybe even a Buddha Bearist: “We need government control to insure free trade.”

Let the market adjust itself. I realize that is anathema to the “totalitarian left” but if it works for Uncle Milty, it works for me. Free to Choose should be required reading for all “liberals.”



I’ve temporarily suspended my economics reading. A friend gave me the book, Journalistic Fraud; how the New York Times distorts the news and can no longer be trusted, written by Bob Kohn.

You’d love it violin. He’s got a number of quotes from Paul Krugman. But that’s not the gist of his research. Unlike Eric Alterman, who missed the entire point when he complains about Rush, O’Reilly and other op-ed writers influencing opinion, Kohn shows exactly how the times uses it’s “objective journalism” articles to spread its "liberal" propaganda. This is fascinating reading because it is so well documented. Gotta go read...”