The Swan

“Scorch -- read the whole thread. Look for the post where I say something like, "This is my point."

Maybe you'll get the point then...”

“Yea maybe, or maybe I don't feel like dealing with your snotty attitude”

“jumping up and down and waving my hand!

There is nothing natural about makeup...and plastic surgery is an extension of makeup, it's just a matter of what one can afford. I can't believe what people go thru just to have fingernails!

I don't wear makeup, but one of these days I am gonna have a plastic surgeon remove some moles on my face. If anyone disagrees with that, I'll pay to have him put them on your face.”

“Having moles removed is different than giving yourself a new chin or new cheekbones! Unless there's a drastic reason for a person needing cosmetic surgery, such as implants of the face, then there's no reason for it to be done.

I'm not saying that makeup is natural in the sense that a person was born with it,.. maybe I chose the wrong word,.. but I'm saying it's less artificial than actual surgery.”

“You know what annoys me? Everytime I log into my backpacker.com e-mail, there is this very annoying link...

"Guide For Outdoor Women
Expert advice for outdoorswomen, plus gear and clothing reviews especially made for your bodies."

Where's the "Guide For Outdoor Men" and expert advice for outdoorsmen, and clothing reviews especially for your bodies???

Don't you guys feel slighted? It's discrimination!
LOL...”

“Too bad for the men!”

“LOL...I really do feel it's discrimination...
(plus in most cases, ads for "women specific" stuff mean stuff for petite women. So the term "women specific" is misleading)

And I'm not necessarily FOR plastic surgery, but I don't think it's such a big deal, just another choice. Kinda like having braces to straighten crooked teeth.”

“I'm not for or against plastic surgery,.. but it's a shame that people feel the need to implant things in their body to feel happy.”

“Scorchfire, it bothers me when someone posts something and the first thing they say is, let me say right off I haven't read the entire thread.

It just seems more respectful if a person reads the entire thread to see if their initial kneejerk reaction to a few statement holds true the whole way through. If you have an idea you want to comment on, jot down a note to remember.

I'm not saying I always read a whole thread before responding. If I haven't read it all, I do say that I haven't. And if I haven't, I would fully expect it to be within someone's right to call me out on it.

All that said, it made me think of something else. How do piercings and tattoos fit into all this?”

“Touche Liz !!”

“I was trying to think of all the things done to alter the body that are accepted as normal these days (after braces and fingernails, lasik came to mind) but I hadn't thought of tattoos and piercings...

Leave it to lizs to state the obvious!”

“First, yes I do feel sorry for men who have been brainwashed into a very narrow set of criteria for "beauty" in women. What a shame.

One of the sayings of the tattoo world: What's the difference between tattooed persons and non-tattooed persons? The tattooed don't care that the non-tattooed haven't got tattoos.

The cultural imperitive is not that persons get tattooed -- though the taboo has lost much of its strength, it still falls on the "don't list."

The Swan is an example of the overwhelming and accelerating cultural imperitive to change yourself in "acceptable" ways, despite the risks from surgery, such as implants and liposuction, being much, much greater than something like tattoos and piercings.

Tattoos (much like make up) do not change the actual physical contours of the body, though other body modification processes (neck elongation, foot binding, etc.) do. Speaking of foot-binding, a practice the West decried in its Chinese counterparts -- now plastic surgeons are sculpting women's feet so they fit into high heels better. Hmmmm.

It took deaths in the 19th century to put the breaks on the "wasp" waisted corsets that were literally squeezing the life out of women in the name of fashion.

Yes it's a very complicated subject. I happen to live in a household that has gotten rather militant about things such as implants because we saw exactly how it was filtering into the conciousness of one of our daughters.

The Swan and many plastic surgeons are about the $$$ not the women's self esteem. Getting a boob job and a nose job doesn't ultimately solve the problems the patient thinks it will. One of the results may be that once that realization sets in, the low self-esteem may plunge lower. Studies find that the suicide rate is higher for women who have had breast implants.

And the sick joke on women who opt for implants because it will enhance earning opportunities? The longterm costs of maintenance, which can be enormous. Those implants don't last forever.”

“Well, I must say that even I have a great love for natural breast I do think I'm going to try to get rid of mine. Otherwise I'll have to change my handle to "Bltchtlt Bob" ala Fight Club.”

“I guess my thoughts are - if you don't want plastic surgery, tattoos, etc...don't have it done, but don't knock others that do. You don't have to walk in their shoes every day. The world can be a cruel place and it ain't changing soon.

My mom has breast implants, I'll ask her this weekend about maintenance.”

“I understand pekka. I hope never to have daughters! ;)

The problem is, IMHO, that alterations from makeup to surgery have "evolved" over our History and we may not be able to stop it.

Q: Does anyone who dissaproves of surgery also dissaprove of Botox?

Makeup was once used in the "old days" soon all will use botox. It's a step by step change that will, unfortunately, win too many people over.”

“That should scare them away from Glam Life!”

“I'm just stating my opinion as well as everyone else here. I don't believe in cosmetic surgery unless it's necessary or unless there's something to be removed like moles, etc. I don't believe in implanting plastic into the face, or any other part of the body unless it's needed or unless you are missing that part. I do, however, believe in breast implants if the person is completely flat chested or if someone had to get their natural breasts removed. I would feel like less of a woman if I didn't have my breasts,.. but then again, that's just my personal opinion.

I don't think tattoos and piercings fit into the category of "cosmetic surgery." They are not changing the structure of a body.

And lizs, I wasn't about to read 200 posts because I was on my way out. I don't have time to read all that during the day. That's why I posted without reading them all. I read about half before responding with my opinion.”

“I like ya Scorchy, but you keep contradicting yourself...

First you say...
"I don't believe in cosmetic surgery unless it's necessary..."

And then...
"I would feel like less of a woman if I didn't have my breasts,.. but then again, that's just my personal opinion.

ScorchFire
10:33:18 AM
04/09/04"

personal opinion is what it's all about...so don't keep saying that what YOU would do is ok, but others don't have the same choice.”

“How am I contradicting myself?? I say, HOWEVER, I do believe in breast implants if the woman feels less of a woman due to no breasts.

And I NEVER said what others do isn't okay... my personal opinion is that it isn't necessary! I'm not trying to force my opinions on anyone.. if you got that impression, sorry!”

“Yeah, but ya don't see me runnin' out for a dick extention because I feel like less of a man...

never mind...this post never happened!”

“BAN NIGAL!!!”

“JIHAD NIGAL!”

“haha”

“last year i got crowns for my teeth. purely cosmetic reason.
i had a pretty good gap between my two front teeth so i had all for top ones redone, resized, squeezed together.

could've gotten braces to do the job but i didnt want to go thru that #&%!$ for years.

anyway, does that make me as bad as the swan chicks ?

i think that most people would say those swan chicks are pathetic, but lots of people would do what i did and not think twice, or think any less of me.

it's pretty hard to argue the difference tho.”

“After shopping for road bikes last night, a friend and I went for dinner at Hooters.



I love boobs.


All boobs: Big, small, perky, heavy . . .


I just love 'em.





That's it. That's all . . .

Just stating a simple fact.”

“Not really hard to argue the difference... Okay, let me rephrase... I guess I don't find it that bad to get something done to your body,.. but when you go all out like these chics did, I find it repulsive.

The things they did to their body... might as well call it a body lift. They aren't even the same person.. it will affect their personalities as well.

-eyebrow lift
-nose job(s)
-cheekbones
-chin implants
-TONS of dental work
-breast implants
-liposuction on 5-6 places on their body.
-hardcore dermatology appts (I can agree with that though)

etc, etc...


I just don't see the reasoning behind it.”

“i'm a buttman myself.

my experience - the smaller the boobs, the better they are in bed (on average)”

“Glad you could share ; P”

“More than a...


oh nevermind.”

“It's not size I look for but sensitivity!”

“You have a good point there...”

“Two points!

(rim shot)”

“On the botox issue, I defer to my brother, who tests drugs as a Ph.D. molecular biologist for a mega pharmaceutical corp., as well as a being a former registered med. technologist with a military background. He finds it absurd that what he calls "a weaponized biological agent" is being used for cosmetic purposes. He views the dangers as being much more than is being let on to patients.”

“agreed.”

“sacco (on average)

How big was sampling group ?
What selection criteria did you use to make sure you did have a good representative sample ?
What is your margin of error ?

Just trying to understand how accurate the 'average' might be.

Oops, almost forgot to ask, how do you define 'better in bed' ?
What qualities are 'better vs 'worse'.
Your criteria for what is better may be different from what I seek.
Some people may like active and others passive.

Q. Why does Mike Tyson cry during sex ??



A. Mace will do that.”

“Surplus? Excess?”

“Scorch, I've tried real hard to see where you didn't contradict yourself...or maybe I'm using the wrong word...

I guess what I read in your posts is this...
"It would be ok for ME (Scorchfire) to have breast implants because I'd feel like less of a woman (i.e., insecure) without them; but it's not ok for others to have something done to help them with whatever insecurities they might have."

Or did I interpret your post wrong?”

“Botox was originally used to stimulate nerves for people who suffered from strokes. it reversed the paralysis.

The danger with using it is no one knows what, if any, long term damage might occur. One possibility is the permanent destruction of nerves, leaving the person with One droopy face!”

“How big was sampling group ?
-- 20-25

What selection criteria did you use to make sure you did have a good representative sample ?
-- criteria - they would sleep with me.
--good sample - not so much, they were dumb enough to sleep with me.

What is your margin of error ?
--pretty dam high

Oops, almost forgot to ask, how do you define 'better in bed' ?
-- more movement

Your criteria for what is better may be different from what I seek.
Some people may like active and others passive.
-- passive ? who like's passive? necrophilliacs, maybe?”

“omigawd manuka and sacco, that is tooooo funny!
=D

passive? LOL...”

“I have breasts, so I'm not getting implants any time soon (or probably ever for that matter).

My main point is, that you don't have to change everything that you are (look like) in order to feel accepted into society. Try some therapy first. The show is a disgrace in that the show points out everyone's negative physical attributes instead of pointing them in the right direction of being happy how they are. Some of these girls that they are showing don't need all this fake stuff... they'd look fine just by dieting, exercising and a new hair do! Okay, some of them could use a nose job or so, but not the abundance of surgery they're performing!”

“Dumb enough ? not retarded I hope because that would make the act statutory rape.

But so much better than drunk enough.

Was 'movement' the only criteria for 'better', no vocalizations or other senses involved ?
Did movement have any subcategories to differentiate 'better' movement from worse movement.

I mean a back shredding with nails could constitute movement, as could testicle crushing, either or both could be viewed a better or worse by different people.

20 -25 an inexact number, unlike the precise 20,000 mentioned by Wilt Chamberlain in one of his rare 'modest moments'.”

“Besides, it's too small of a sample to be statistically meaningful.

What we need is a double-blind study, with about 3,000 women, half in a control group.

What the control would be for, I'm not sure...”

“like I said - I didn't watch it, but I thought therapy IS part of the makeover.”

“Therapy for their new transformation is part of it.”

“I'm talking about therapy to love who they are BEFORE the transformation.

Hell, everyone has something about themselves that they hate,.. but most of us deal with it and still can remain happy in our lives without giving ourselves new faces and new bodies.”

“They could have spent all the money for plastic surgery on something worthwhile, like a cure for cancer.”

“word”

“Or they could have bought me something.”

“You don't need anything!

on the other hand, I would like something. Please”