Weak signal. Need Clear View of Sky (GP S)

“I spent quite a bit of time seeing this on my new eTrex Legend GPS this past weekend. I was very frustrated with the unit’s ability to pick up a signal and by the end of the weekend I had decided I was sending it back. I have calmed down a bit now and done some more reading and have come to a realization; I was expecting too much from this GPS. Here are some of my concerns and points to question…

1) - The sales description says it will work in just about any cover but heavily forested areas. This is what I was expecting. The leaf cover this weekend was very light and I still had trouble getting a signal. I did find out that the internal antenna is a small flat plate in the front cover of the gps and the proper way to acquire a signal is to hold it face up (not vertical). Even on a lanyard around my neck it had trouble. The only way I had any success is when I strapped it on the top of my pack face up. But this puts it out of my reach and exposed to the elements. It is water proof to one meter for 30 minutes so it should be able to take any rain but the sun and heat are a concern.
A. How do you carry your gps to maximize the signal yet have it within reach?
B. Is my performance fairly common?
C. Just how bad will it be when the leaves are all on?

2) I expected a complete bread crumb trail- this just isn’t going to happen. The likeliness of the unit maintaining a constant signal is just expecting too much. This frustrated me the most because I’m thinking that with blank spots in the route I won’t have complete data as to the miles I’ve traveled, trip time, stopped time…
A. Does this cause loss of information to the total trip info?


I’m trying not to be too hasty in sending it back and I do realize a lot of this could just be my gps ignorance. I just need a little help in figuring out which is the unit and which is my ignorance.”

“I am waiting on a good unit to appear that has good reception under canopy before I trade up.

In the mean time, my etrex seems to work as well as any.”

“At the height of my hissy fit this weekend I decided to just get a basic unit like the geko and use it with a UTM grid overlay and go that rout. But the geko also has the internal antenna. The only real option is spending the big bucks for a unit that has an external wire antenna option but I’m not spending the extra cash for a bigger, heavier, even more complicated unit. I only spent $162 for a unit that has 8 megs of memory and about every feature I would ever need. The receptions the only sticking point.”

“I've found that it works better if I give it a chance to get every possible satellite before I go into some trees. For some reason, it is able to get readings easier that way. I guess it makes sense - as you pass through areas where it can't "see" some of the satellites, the more satellites it is checking for, the more chance it was get a brief signal for one. Am I making sense?”

“Yes. I think the intial lock on the sats is important.”

“Isn't the etrex line by Garmin? They are notorious for bad reception. It has to do with the type of antenna they use. My Magellan Meridian gets signal even in deep tree cover. The only thing that can defeat it is steep cliffs forming a narrow valley PLUS heavy trees. I DO get the complete bread-crumb trail and can therefore use the convenient "backtrack" feature. My advice: return it and get a Magellan. In 1 1/2 years, over 50 wilderness hikes, I have NEVER been unable to lock in my position.”

“nigal

your experience and the performance you got is about right on par for handhelds.

when the leaves are on it will get much worse.

inside most forests the only places you can get a decent signal is in meadows, open cliff faces or next to lakes, ect durring summer.


pay attention to where the sattelites are, and try to stand and orient your unit to pick up the sattelites as best you can.
sometimes a single tree branch can block out a sattelite.
because of our location on the planet (especially true of northern states) most of the sattelites tend to be south of us, more often.”

“Slugman, thanks.”

“i believe that some of the difference between magellan and garmin is in the software and how it interprets the signals, not just the antena.

i'm not an expert on handhelds, but i have a background in surveying and GPS.

from what i've been told, this is what i think maybe happening:

both units maybe picking up the same strength signal, but magellan is faster to call that signal O.K. and try to use it. garmin's seem to be "pickier" with what they'll accept from a sattelite.

so a magellan and a garmin side by side in the woods --

they both pick up the same signals from the same sattelites. garmin unit says " that signal from that sat. is too weak, i'm not gonna use it" and so your garmin just tells you "NO FIX"

meanwhile the magellan has lower standards, uses that signal and tells you "YOU"RE RIGHT HERE"

only problem with the magellan is those crappy signals it uses can sometimes throw your position off.”

“I looked at the Magellans and found a comperable unit that looks like about the level I want for $185 with a $30 rebate. It has 6 megs of memory. I've had a pda with 8megs and found it more than enough. Is 6 megs OK for the weekend warrior?

http://www.thegpsstore.net/detail_MA61601.asp”

“Isn't a GPS signal a digital signal?”

“Nigal, the performance is par for the course. I have the eTrex Vista with a few bells and whistles. I carried it on my belt in open meadows, and it does fine. Under trees I had to carry it in my palm (not what I want).

If you are saving a track, you obviously need to hand carry it. If not, you can put it in your belt and it will still record distance, etc, but not give the bread crumb trail.

I was taking a GPS/orienterring workshop over the weekend. One of the other guys had the Vista as well, and we were standing side by side. Mine had resolution to seven feet; his was 29 feet. Go figure.

My take is that the science is imperfect, but close enough.

Some folks in the workshop had the Garmin G5, and it looks like it has an antenna that can be bent around. I think eventually I will want to move up to that, but for now the Vista will do.”

“Nigal

What the others have said about the Magellan and the Garmin seems to be accurate. Magellan uses a different type of antenna as well, that seems less fussy to how you hold it as well as acquiring signals under heavy coverage. There are some Gamins that use the same antenna as the Magellan but I cant remember which ones they are. As was mentioned, the software can influence it as well.
Here is some stuff on the different types... GPS Antennas> Patch and Helix types. Which is the best?


How you hold your GPS has much to do with it as well....Garmins seem to be a tad more fussy.

Here is a map I made yesterday day while scouting out a spot for a CARDA training (click on "View full size") I kinda screwed up and left the GPS on while we traveled up and down the road...the track that follows the road the closest is when I had the GPS on the dash of the truck...the other tracks that overlay the original was while it was sitting in my cup holder. Parts of the road where in rather heavy tree cover.


The Sportrak map's only disadvantage, that I know of, is when you use the Mapsend Topo program, the area that you can download is kinda small...I have all of Northern CA on my Platinum which has a 32 meg card. Its not a problem unless you travel a lot.”

“BTW, great thread title. Made me laugh, because I knew exactly what you meant!

On the return leg of my hike, I could tell whether the trail immediately ahead was under trees or in meadow because the bread crumb trail stopped under the trees and resumed in the meadow.”

“i haven't tried out my Delorme earthmate on trail yet. but it got a fix from inside the house. I'm not sure of what kind of antenna it uses, it's awfully small. And i haven't bought the battery pack for it yet, i'm still just hooking it up to my pda or laptop.”

“Much thanks guys.

Just got back from returning the eTrex to Wally world. I ordered a Magellan Sport track map for $168 with the $30 rebate and free shipping. Not too shabby. I think the antenna on the Sporttrack will be better because I should be able to stick it in a pocket with the top of the unit sticking up to get the signal. I also noticed that the software for the Sporttrack is a bit less too. I think this one will do what I want.

The one other thing I didn’t care for on the eTrex was the little joy stick was on the left side of the unit and to use my right hand to direct it I had trouble seeing all the screen. Chalk it up to having big dikcbeaters I guess.

Now if I can just figure out how to use the EasyGPS program I downloaded….”

“Nigal,

There is a learning curve to learn GPS, but it's not as hard as it seems at first. I've been toting mine around and using it for neighborhood walks and drives around town in order to get used to it.

I've had it for about three weeks to a month, and some of the people in the workshop I took over the weekend were so far behind me I was amazed. One guy had his for over a year and didn't know he could adjust the contrast so he could see the damned thing better!

I have used it in situations where I will never use it again just to get familiar with it.

I also like the feature that keeps track of mileage. That is a keeper!”

“Yeah, you can sit down with the book and read and read and read but in the end you just have to use it and play with it to really get the feel for what you're doing.”

“I have a geko 301 for sell”

“That's GEICO.”

“How much OPIE? I know birch has been lusting for one for quite some time.”

“I have a Garmin Map 76S that I use with an external antenna pinned to the top of my pack. You can stick the unit in a convienent pocket while the antenna works and be hands free while walking. And, the external antenna gets you much better reception. When I really want to look tecknogeekish, I pin it to the top of my hat. The unit cost $320 from "the GPS Store." The antenna was about $30. I use the MapTech Software for storing routes and maps.”

“I bid $25.”

“i'll check current prices, and figure out how much miss opie paid for it...and come back with a price...i bought the lanyard for it, and it works great...i just keep forgetting to take it along, and i've kinda been wanting to go back to really using the compass and not be reliant on tech”

“Just out of curiosity. in your setup, do you have the "battery saver" enabled?

I have a Garmin Rino. My first outing with it last year, I had difficulty acquiring a lock and then under the canopy the GPS frequently lost the signal.

I went back into setup and turned off the "battery saver" mode.

The improvement was remarkable! It is now rare for me to lose signal even in deep woods with heavy canopy.”

“I think I have the same as you Nigel, (is it the blue version??) anyway, no signal or poor signal most of the time. I can't get it to work, thus I don't know how to work it. I am a "hands-on-perso" the dang book ain't doing me no good. I need to practice but can't if I never have a signal.

Never would buy another one. At least not until they get better. Was a waist of my money. oppss...I just remembered....ebay here I come...unless one of you wants to buy the piece of crap”

“OPIE - I forgot to add the ;-) to my last post.”

“"Just out of curiosity. in your setup, do you have the "battery saver" enabled?"

No. It was off.”

“"oppss...I just remembered....ebay here I come...unless one of you wants to buy the piece of crap"

LOL! I'm the first one to rant about gear when it doesn't work. It kind of slits my own throat because then I can't dump the thing.”

“i kinda wish i had mine with me to see if it even has the battery saver function..didn't see any instructions for it online..and i doubt the geko has it...”

“Yeah it probably does have the batt saver feature. My 201 does and the 301 has all the features of the 201 plus some more. Go to setup, gps mode, and from there pick batt save.”

“hmm i'll have to have chelle bring it to trail days...i don't mind carrying extra batts if it would grab a sat once in awhile”

“hell, i can drop my vista in the top of my pack and not lose a signal. reception usually gives me an accuracy reading of 6 to 18 feet. more accurate in the wooded mountains than in the city.”

“When I talked to a Garmin tech about having my 3+ serviced I mentioned to him about maybe scrapping the unit and getting an Etrex model and the dood only had good things to say about the 3+ wrt replacing it. He said that because he works and is a tech for Garmin that he's gotten to use all of their products and that although they don't make that specific unit anymore, he said it can outperform some of the newer models. He didn't get into specifics but he did say that from his experience the 3+ was definitly worth getting reconditioned and keeping.

Nigal, are you SURE you want to try to sell it on Ebay?”

“Sounds like ya better hold on to that baby Budder. I bought the thing through Walmart.com so I just took it to the local store and they refunded me. Now I have to wait all over again to get the new one I bought. Damn Big Brown truck!”

“Well I got my new Magellan SportTrack yesterday and all I can say is, “What a difference!”. There are a few pros and cons when comparing the eTrex and the SportTrack.

Pros….

*Signal strength- I’m not sure what this unit does when it loses a signal because it has yet to lose it. The eTrex had to be outside or right on the dash to work. With the ST I got a strong signal inside the house, I can put it down on my center console of the Jeep and it doesn’t lose anything. This one pro cancels out any negatives IMHO.

*Button placement- All the buttons are at the bottom so you can use it (one handed) without covering the screen. It also has a feature that will make the button beep when pushed.

*More buttons- I don’t have to go through a bunch of pull down menus to do what I want.

*Bigger screen.

*Vertical antenna- I can hold the thing vertical and not horizontal.

*Software is cheaper.

* The manual is much more complete.

*Price- I got the eTrex for a great price ($186) but I was able to get the SportTrack for $138. Not bad for a full feature gps!

Cons….

* The map’s not quite as sharp as the eTrex.

* The basemap isn’t as detailed as the eTrex.

* Not as much memory, 6Meg vs. 8Meg.

I can’t wait to get out on trail and try it out!”

“A couple things you may want to check on....

There is a setting that allows you to change the contrast on your screen, perhaps that will help a bit....not sure where it is on the Sportrak, but it should be there somewhere.

What "firmware" is it running?? It should say on the start up screen...many times the software is out of date, you can download newer versions here



Here are some sites you may find useful...
This is a site that explains what the update versions are, the Magellan site doesn't tell you what version you are downloading. Magellan GPS updates

Here is a Yahoo site that may come in handy
magellan-gps-users”

“My Magellian link seems to be screwed up...try this”

“Sweet! Thanks dude! It says it's got NA.Basic 1.01 and I got the thing real cheap so I'm thinking it's probably and older version. I did change the contrast and it did help some.

I was hoping to catch you today. On another thread you gave links to two shareware programs for downloading and uploading routs and stuff. One was EasyGPS and the other was USA Photo Maps. Which is the better of the two in your opinion?”

“Cool. Thanks for the link.”

“After looking at the link I see what you were asking. It says it's got Rev. 4.06 so there is an update. Is the updating easy to do? I'm very sketchy on the up/downloading part of all this.”

“They are different types programs actually...EasyGPS allows you to save your waypoints in files so you can, edit, organize them and move them around...kinda sorta. I l like it because I can organize my waypoints into groups like, Local Geocaches, Waypoints for Shasta, Lassen, etc, and install and remove what I want so I don't have a few hundred to sort through. The program actually does more, but thats the quick and dirty.

USA Photomaps is a map program you can use to print up real USGS maps as well as aerial photos. You can download your waypoints and tracks to it, as well as upload them into your GPS.

Some of the folks here can probably explain the programs better then I and I know I'm leaving stuff out, but thats the basics....”

“Actually, it can be a pain in the ass sometimes. You have to follow the instructions to the letter. I have never had a problem, but I gather others have.

You might want to go to the Yahoo site and ask what the differences are with the upgrades...they may have a file to better explain how to do it as well.”

“The biggest thing I want to be able to do is save tracks from hikes. I'll just have to take it slow and learn as I go. Thanks for the great info. It's helped a lot!”

“Nigal.
There is a learning curve using a gps. To completely master all the features and utilize it to it's utmost probably takes a person about a year.

For the features that are most useful about 30 days. Just take it everywhere you go, not just in the woods but on drives, into town, etc. The more you play with it, the more you8'll learn.

You can never read the manual enough! Even after a year you may go back and notice something that you missed!

Learn to punch waypoint co-ordinates in by hand and when you get to the position of the waypoint, enter it on-site so it is field tested.

As far as some of the gps programs out there, I like Easy GPS. BUT, I also have my own database in ACCESS! and in it I have the kcoordinates in UTM, dge,min,sec, Altitude, MAp Quad, Name (DUHH!), a "comment" field that I basically use to group waypoints (NPT, Silver Lake Wilderness) etc. And I have a boolean check box to check off waypoints that I or someone I know and trust have verified in the field.

Just Play, Play, Play and you'll do fine.

(Don't forget to take you map and compass! and extra batteries!)”

“Extra batteries indeed!”

“Dang Nigal, I'm half tempted to head out to Wally World tonight and pick up one myself.”

“Man Nigal, Birch came home from Costco Wed with stars (shaped like Magellan SportTracks) in his eyes. Apparently they're selling the gps and the software for $180 with a $50 rebate. You and your threads have convinced him he needs one. Can't you talk about this stuff quieter? ;)”

“"Apparently they're selling the gps and the software for $180 with a $50 rebate."

Sumbltch! I've been hoodwinked! That's a great price!”