UTM Nav System

“In a recent Backpacker Mag they had an article about the UTM nav system. I’ve seen this offered by REI for some time but never really looked into it. It seems much easier and more accurate than the old lat/long system. Backpacker.snob has the article online at: http://www.backpacker.com/article/1,2646,6985,00.html

They also gave a link to a site called Maptools.com where you can download a PDF file and print the clear grid overlay grid yourself. After talking to birch about it I realized the price of the clear film to print it on would cost more than buying the grid from them. You can get a grid (waterproof) plus a book on using UTM with a gps for around $6. Not too shabby. http://www.maptools.com/

Now the questions:

Does anyone here use this system?
Do you like it?
Do you have to buy special maps in order to use the grids?”

“Thanks for the maptools.com link. There's a great tutorial there.
http://maptools.com/UsingUTM/

I don't use it as I haven't had enough practice eyeballing the intersects without the use of the grid overlay. It's been too easy to rely on old school triangulation and the GPS.

Also, it occurs to me that you'd have to know where you are within a resolution of about one mile for accurate overlay placement. Otherwise, it's a process of elimination from among adjacent terrain segments you're on. You'd still have to rely on landscape features to get a sense of where you are and then zero in from there.

The National Geographic's TOPO! series maps come with grid lines, but I think you have to either config the map print margins for either lat/long or UTM. Not sure without looking though.

Just by getting enough practice, I'd be more confident with that nav method and I'd probably use it exclusively. I just don't trust my estimation of the intersects yet.

When my boy and girl get started with Mountain travel, I'll probably start 'em off with UTM.”

“I just started using UTM. It's much easier to plot your location on a map using UTM then lat and long. If you have one of the map programs (Maptech or NG Topo) you can print maps with the grid lines on the side...this makes it simple to figure your location on the map.

Here is a map similar to one we are using for an upcoming class...it was made using Maptech Terrain Navigator. With nothing more then a regular compass, everyone in the class should be able to locate themselves and find locations we will give them. It is a lot easier then trying to plot it on a regular map using Lat and Long.

For Geocaching I still use Lat and Long because that's how everything is set up. If you have a Magellan, you can set it up to show Lat and Long or UTM with only a click of a button...I assume that Garmin has the same feature (primary and secondary coordinates) but I don't know for sure.”

“UTM is much easier to use. I have sensed over the years that a lot of TTers use it.

Secor's classic Sierra book uses only UTM to give coordinate locations.”

“"I have sensed over the years that a lot of TTers use it"

Phil are you the Yoda of TT?

"Do or do not, there is no try"

"A disturbance in the force I detect"


Okay, sorry, it's late.”

“Nigal,
I've used it for a couple of orienteering meets and an adventure race where we had to plot our own checkpoints. I've never used it in conjunction with a GPS although I assume you would just handle it in reverse. Pick your destination and then plug in the numbers.

I just bought a new Silva Ranger compass that has a UTM grid on the baseplate. (happen to have it here at work lol)

Check out www.nwsos.com/TRAINING/utm.htm”

“I was taught navigation in both lat/long and utm, i prefer utm - i think universally everyone in my class prefers utm, it's much easier to work with.”

“Very cool info guys. Thanks. So you do need special maps then. I hear a lot about the NG Topo map program. Is it really good? Is it also useable for downloading into a gps? I will mostly be using the UTM with a gps. This seems like it would KISS simple because the gps would give you the exact location and then you’d just transfer that to the map with the overlay. It would get trickier without the gps. I can usually look at a topo, judge how long I’ve been hiking and then give a general area where I am but not down to an exact co ordinance. I often space out while walking.”

“Yes, UTM is much easier, especially using TOPO! You just tell it to use UTM instead of lat/long, and to print a UTM grid at whatever interval you want - I like 500 meters. It's really easy to not only find where you are, but enter waypoints into your GPS in the field for some distant point because it's easy to estimate the coords.”

“I grew up using a version of the UTM, it's far more logical. The whole of the UK is divided into a grid, and it's easy to pinpoint a landmark from the grid reference. It's certainly the way forward. The NG map package makes it easy to overlay, and wherever the boundries of you map end up you can see the appropriate numbers for the grid.”

“Nigey, send me your email address. I wrote a nice, easy to understand paper to hand out to folks at work who are new to GIS, projections and datums. You prolly won't understand it, but it will help on those nights you can't sleep.”

“Nigal, UTM is way simple. Most if not all maps from the USGS (at least the 7.5 minute quadrangle maps) have a grid overlay on them. The standard (I think) grid size is 1000m, it makes navigation a breeze with this one caveat. You MUST have at least one known point (where you are is best, but another can work with more effort).

You can get some real precision from a UTM. We used to use an 8 or even 10 digit coordinate that will get you accuracy of about 1 meter (10 digit that is). Pretty cool. The key with UTM is plotting points VERY accurately. It takes a little practice but is very reliable and consistent.

Remember with a UTM you always go inside (easting) before you go upstairs (northing).

Fun stuff! Good luck.”

“A question for you folks that have experience using the NG Topo program..

When I print a map with Maptech Terrain Navigator, using UTM, I get a map with side borders and grid lines like this .


When I use the NG Topo program, I get a map like this , is there any way to get the borders and grid lines like the Maptech map....I thought I had all the options checked, but I may be missing something.”

“Nige, you can't be badmouthing the "snob" mag when you actually got help (or at least a new IDEA!!) from them... *slaps hand*

I've heard of UTM and have no idea how it works. When I saw that Backpacker article with all the UTM waypoints I nearly cried!!! waaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!!”

“Yes, mtnsteve. You should (assuming your software is current) be able to click on the grid icon along the top of the screen. A dialog box will pop up to have you enter the grid spacing. It won't put the intermediate ticks along the border, though.”

“Lizs. It's actually much much simpler than dealing in degrees and minutes.”

“Yeah, ynami, that's right - it's just an x-y coordinate thing.”

“Given a few years, I probably would have noticed that.

Way cooool!”

“You're welcome, mtnsteve. Just remember, I know everything, so if you ever don't know something, just ask me....”

“StickmanWalking - May the force be with you!
”

“I do have one question.....

I can't find the dogs leash...I used it yesterday and it has disappeared, Susan doesn't have it and it's not in my pack or truck....where the Hell is it?

;-)”

“It's under the sofa....”

“Nigal, one of the local gear stores should offer some classes on using the UTM grids. I took a basic compass, advanced compass basic map and advanced map. They showed us how to use the UTM. also how to layout the grids on your map if it doesn't have it. Some of the newer maps come with the grids already on the maps.”

“I prefer the utm to the lat-long coordinates. All the USGS Topos have the UTM ticks.

As far as the map tools go, Go for it. I bought one of everything. The thing to make sure of is the small utm grid tools. If you use topos for the area in the Adirondack park, the scale is 1:25 000 metric as compard to the normal 1:24000 so if you only purchase one grid, make sure you get the right scale.

The small grids fit right in a pocket in my map case. He also sells a good little booklet on using utm.

For the curious (and if it,s not listed in the thread somewhere), UTM is much more accurate for small distances like 1-300 miles. Lat/long is more accurate for going vast distances.

Only other thing you need to take heed of is if the map uses Nav27 or Nav83 Datum and set your GPS accordingly. Another thing which the book explains.”

“Are Nav27 or Nav83 Datum sim-u-lar to NAD 27 or NAD 83? :Þ”

“While I was taking the classe's using the compass the instructor showed us just how far off a GPS can be.

We were on a small orienteering course of the park. We had already used our compass to do the course. Next the instructor used his GPs to do the same course we had just finished. We all knew where we should end up but with the GPS we were off over 50 yards.
I realize that isn't a lot but we were in a very small area where the GPS should have gotten closer than what it did.

The instructor who teaches compass, map reading and GPS classes for beginners and advanced was asked if he preferred the GPS over the map and compass. He replied that of the three he would take a map first, then a compass and the GPS last. The reason being is that the map and compass are a lot more reliable than any electronic device.”

“Getting into this discussion late, so if I repeat anything other people said, sorry!

I have used both UTM and geo coordinates, almost interchangeably over the years. I was trained in both while working for the feds way back when, actually in the Army by a guy I worked with.

UTM is based on 100,000 meter grid squares, and all the squares within squares are square, so you can either make up or purchase the grid measures. You can also figure distance, if you adept at figuring in metric, which I am not nor have I ever been. But meters tranlates to kilometers easily.

GPS units are set to handle either. You just reset the parameters and you are good to go. I have been using geo coords up until now, but the workshop I took at Canaan Valley was in UTM, since that's what they use on the refuge. All USGS maps have UTM tick marks on the borders, and you can order custom maps with either UTM or Geo, or sometimes both.

People tend to get used to one or the other. Both are simple enough. You just need to learn it and then think about it before you use it.

Ain't all this stuff great>

Re map and compass vs GPS - Both are just tools we can use. I've had pretty good luck with my GPS unit, but I try to use satellite photos to set up waypoints rather than topo maps. The sat photos seem more reliable than the maps. The difference is not much with the maps, but the photos seem right on.

I'm just getting started in this stuff myself, and I think I'm in hog heaven.”

“I cut my teeth on compass and map. I will never go anywhere without them.

HOWEVER

In places like the Adirondacks when in deep forest you usually cannot see any landmarks, making it difficult to triangulate and some times impossible to "dead recon" your position on a topo map.

The big advantage with a gps besides giving your current position accurately enough (and if being within 50 yards of something you haven't the know how to find it, you got no business in the woods) is the ability to use a topo map or software and enter the co-ordinates of where you want to change the direction on your route. It allows you to get around swamps, vlys, between mountains, get to crossings on rivers, etc. The other advantage is that when you do have to go off your course to get around obstacles, you just follow the arrow on the GPS instead of having to keep track of how far you went in what direction or taking a new bearing with your compass and map.

If you are on flat terrain, like the plains or badlands or desert, it's easy to triangulate current position and get bearings with a compass and map.

In the forest, it's a different story. I really rely on my gps more then the compass. Map is crucial with either.

And No I do not have a problem using the gps under the treee canopy and Yes it IS DENSE cover in the Adirondacks.

If you can afford a GPS, Get one and learn to use it. However do not leave home without your map and compass.”

“Yeah, I'll never forget the story I read in Backpacker about the couple that got lost because the batteries in their gps died and they didn't have a map. The gps will never replace the good old topo.”

“Thats the problem nowadays.

We get these great tools that allow people to do things they could not or would not normally do. However, if the technology fails because of mechanical/electrical failure or (more often) stupidity, then people are in a position in which they have no skills at all. Eveb experienced hikers can fall into the technology trap.

Last year I went on a bushwhack near my home here in the Adirondacks. My partner was another retired navy Seal. He plotted the route at home on his gps the night before. I let him lead since I have all the confidence in the world in his skills. A couple of hours into the hike, it just didn't feel right to me. I looked at the map and the stream we should have been following was not serpentine like the one we were following. We had followed the wrong stream because we missed the mouth of the stream we should have followed because it was hidden by a huge errata in the stream. Tractor had failed to notice that although it appeared we were on the correct bearing on the gps, we were actually moving away from it! We had to cut over a couple of ridges to get over to the right stream. By the time we got on courde and figured how far we still had to go, and then get back, we would be out of daylight and were only equipped for a day hike. So we aboryed the hike and did it another time. This was a case where if we had relied solely on the map and compass, we would have caught the error much sooner. The GPS was right, but my partner was not watching anything except bearing.”

“Technology can be a wonderful thing, but.....


The most important survival tool we have is our brain. I have seen people with packs filled with, knifes, maps, GPS's and just about every survival tool you can imagine...totaly lost and just about dead.

One thing I always try and remember is "The big picture"...a mental overview of the area I'm in...if I walk far enough North, South, East or West what will I run into.

I was out with a couple clients a few years ago... on our way back to the truck we ran into a blizzard, you couldnt see past your ski tips...one gal asked if I knew where we were, I said no...the other said, OH my God, were lost...I told her we weren't lost. She asked me to explain how we weren't lost when I didn't know where we were.

Easy...if we go that way, we hit Hy 44, that way and we hit Manzanita Creek, that way and we hit R 17, that way and we go back where we came from. We were at the truck in 20 min.


On that note...I have been misplaced for a few hours at a time ;-)”

“the fact that you were off by 50 yds in a small area is not surprising at all.

this does NOT mean that you'll be off by 500 yds if you went 10 times farther.

10 yds is the absolute best accuracy is you can ask from ANY handheld gps, requardless of price or what the readout says.”

“Anyone else think it's too bad so many people can't just enjoy the beauty around them on a hike instead of staring into a GPS unit, altimeter or cellphone?”

“Handrails are the key thing in navigation.”

“Bingo! y squared”

“Somebody should do something about the hills too. Hikings hard and stuff.”

“Well. GPS Units, altimeters, compass, Map and often a sextant are used by people who are the professionals and the best.

So I would not be quick to "Hmmprh" the technology.

Anyone who goes out without any of them is a fool. I have also seen a lot of people who have a compass and map and don't know what declination, back bearing, and triangulation mean and cannot tell what a mountain actually looks like from a topo.

Having spent about 56 of my 62 years in the woods on a regular basis, I carry everything I can that will save my life. I don't need food or shelter, toilet paper, flashight, lantern, or tarp. Those are conveniences, luxuries.

I always carry water bottle, water filter, whistle (Fox 40, LOUD), compass, USGS First Aid Kit, Quads for all the area I am covering, GPS (And plenty of batteries), altimeter, barometer, and thermometer (included on my watch) and a Knife.

Those are the necessities. If I have those, I will survive for whatever time I need to and I will find my way out.”

“Interesting posts here. Mtnsteve is right. Best tool is the noggin, but some people refuse steadfastly to use it as its manufacturer intended.

Placing total reliance on anything is foolhardy. Trails get rerouted, so maps don't always have the right info. Compasses can go awry in areas with high iron ore concentrations.

The trick is to use these tools, but if something doesn't seem right, sit down and think the problem through.

One nice thing about mountains is, you have terrain to help you think it through. And, in the case of redhawk's adventure, the meanders of the stream.

I have been pleasantly surprised at the accuracy of my GPS unit. So far it's been right on top of the waymark, no matter how the waymark is created, with one singular exception, and that is topo maps. The topo maps seem to be what is off. When I set up waypoints by satellite photos, they seem right on. When I crank in coordinates supplied by some means other than topo map, it's been right on. Topo coords seem off by about 10 yards, which really is not that bad.

I do notice, though, that the bread crumb trail changes on the return leg of an out-and-back. It's off by probably 5-10 yards.

I've been carrying the GPS thing around and trying to get familiarized with it, so I'm playing with it a lot more than I either need to or will once I get going. I got it to plot locations for Conservancy work, and I think it will be helpful in bushwacks and establishing where routes that do not appear on maps lie. Other than that, it will very quickly lose my interest.”

“I remember being called out for a search a few years ago....when we got to the site I asked who we were looking for, the deputy laughed and said....a survivor.

Another time, we were called out to assist a search in Trinity County during hunting season...while we were briefed we asked what equipment and experience the guy may have had...everyone kinda smiled as we were told..."the guys a Navy Seal"

Both were found....both were rather embarrassed.”

“surveyor


although he did survive ;-)”

“How do you perform your searches steve? Grid, tracking, or working from trails and roads?”

“It depends on a bunch of variables...terrain, resources available, age and possible condition of victim, time of day, etc. No two ever seem to be the same and the victum almost never does what you expect.

The CHP choppers are invaluable... from transporting ground teams and supplys to being a great set of eyes in the sky. Our ships have thermal systems that can spot someone sleeping under the trees or even "see" a body decomposing under leaves.

Grid searches chew up a lot of man power and time, but if you are reasonably sure of your search area and you think the victim might be down (injured or dead) it might be the best choice.

Trails and road that are in or surrounding a search area are always checked, many times the Jeep guys find who we're looking for, wandering down an old dirt road...other times the Man Trackers find tracks actually crossing the road and going right back into the woods.

Many dog teams come from other county's, so there is often a time lag before they get there after they are requested, if there is a known POS (point last seen) they will usually be put there to start.

What teams you have available also determine how you search...I was with the Mountain Team, one of our specialties was night searches in rather nasty terrain. . Many hunters and other folks, when lost, hike down drainage's . We would often be dropped off at the top of some of the nastiest, steepest and dangerous drainage's and told to hike them out....often at night.

Man Trackers are always put on point if there is a know track in the area.

When it comes to children...they pull out all the stops.”

“GPS Units, altimeters, compass, Map and often a sextant are used by people who are the professionals...Anyone who goes out without any of them is a fool.

I would agree. And I can honestly say that in my 30 years of hiking (my first trip was at 16) I have never carried once carried any of the above - except the map. I don't know anyone who has ever toted a sextant. Well, maybe George Washington.

Have I been lucky? Sure. Foolish? Maybe.

Oh yeah, I just started filtering my water 3 years ago! moooooooHAHAHAHA!”

“Interesting steve. When I was in Virginia, I reported extensively on Park Rangers in Shenandoah and several SAR missions they had going. They usually called on the Blue Ridge SAR team, did not like to call in sheriff's deputies, and again, search techniques varied as you said.

But at one point they brought in a retired Border Patrol officer who was teaching man tracking to a group of rangers and volunteer SAR people. I covered the class, and he used me to help lay down tracks in the field for the final exercise. It was a hoot and a half, and I followed a group of rangers trying to follow the tracks I laid down. They kept asking me to help them out, and I kept referring them to material presented in the class. Ab, the instructor, came by during this and took in what was going on. Later he told me that my response was good because I put it back on them.

When he gave out certificates, he presented one to me, saying I probably learned more than the rest of them. I still have that certificate and hang it in my office. I figure I'm the only man-tracking journalist in the country, although there might be another one or two.

But tracking is tedious business. You have to make up your mind whether you have the time or need to get going faster. If you go faster, you could wipe out any tracks. If you go the tracking method, the person could die by the time you find them. Depends on who it is, how much time, and whether tracks are suitable for following.

What struck me was how to follow tracks on hard ground, looking for signs of compression, broken twigs, displaced stones.

But it seemed that most of the actual searches were done differently. Rangers first did what they call a hasty search, going down trails or roads. If that doesn't work, they work a bit more methodically.

All of their searches were successful except for the guy who ventured out onto an icy rock on Old Rag to try and get his dog. He fell to his death. The dog was fine.

SAR is interesting work, but I've never been in sufficient physical condition for it. It was fun interviewing rangers and following searches on the map, and on the radio.”

“You had a class taught by Ab Taylor!!...the man is considered a legend. My first Man Tracking class was taught by him, YEARS ago.... now Joel seems to do most of the classes. I hope you framed your certificate, it's truly an honor to have one signed by Ab!.
A good Man Tracker can track anyone. Ab told us a story once about tracking someone on city streets...amazing. Our trackers have been responsible for several finds...we found one guy only because he would stop and smoke a cigarette every 10 min....if he hadn't kept stopping we would still be on our hands and knees..LOL When we put out our tracking teams, often one team is on the track while a couple others "cut sign" for more tracks...we have had several different teams on the same track, at different points, it helps speed things up a little. It is kind of a #&%!$ when you are the one starting at the first sign and you realize they may have found additional tracks a few miles ahead...but you gotta keep on your sign.
There are no real standards for most SAR teams, although that is beginning to change. In Northern CA there is a tremendous difference between county's, types of teams, level of training and cooperation with other agency's. It even changes from year to year. Years ago Shasta County was considered one of the best SAR teams in the country, unfortunately that is no longer the case. The politics of SAR can make or break a team.

Rural areas, like we have in Northern CA, rely on teams from the Sheriffs Office...the amount of wilderness up here makes for literality hundreds of missions each year.. for each county. Lassen National Park is one of the few places up here that has the resources to initiate their own SAR response. Most Parks will do a hasty search immediately, they know the area and have the manpower at hand..it's usually after that they call in other resources...that can also depend on the relationship between the local SAR team and the Park Officials. In the old days we trained in Lassen Park much of the time and we included their people in our training (Good Politics). They knew our abilities and we knew theirs...we even played together on our days off, skiing and climbing together. Unfortunately, now the current team rarely ventures into the Park and they wouldn't know each other if they sat next to each other on a bus (Bad Politics) I suspect that will change in the future...nothing is static, all things will change.”