Are you a victim, too?

“Hmmm, without the UAW the Big Fat Three would design better cars?”

““The very beginning of this thread is actually worth reading. Just remember to stop reading when you get to the slimey part when XL took it over.”
Tilt
11:21:02 AM
8/28/07

Tilt, you get a lot more support for this sentiment if you were to include rosey in that statement as well. Why is it always "the other side" that is the only impediment to rational debate.”

“Why is it always "the other side" that is the only impediment to rational debate.

The question for generations.....”

“Like usual people are arguing their personal vendettas instead of the reason this data was posted. Which was to counter this statement:

Edwards has claimed that poverty in America is a “plague” which forces 37 million Americans to live in “terrible” circumstances. According to Edwards, an amazing “one in eight” Americans lack “enough money for the food, shelter, and clothing they need,” caught in a daily “struggle with incredible poverty.”

My point is that setting the poverty level so high that it includes households with 2 cars, color tv, microwaves, dvd players, etc that it makes it near impossible to get tax dollars to aide the tiny minority that truly need assistance.

And the nonsense that to not be in favor of pouring tax dollars into the problem means you don't understand christian charity just goes to show that people who say that have no clue what christian charity is. Christian charity isn't giving what you have to others no matter what, but sharing what you have with those people who need help. The sole arbiter of who needs that help is the person giving it. Then again, I am not much of a christian so what do I know. Well, I do know that my money has a much better chance of helping someone if I give it to a Christian charitable organization than if I give it to the government.”

“And Jim and Tammy Faye made a living off of assumptions like that, Hyway...”

“rosey, your example of Christians are Jim and Tammy Faye?

Come on man. Don't you want to be taken at least a little bit seriously? Otherwise, why even bother? Are you that bored?

Well said Hyway.”

“true that, but I bet the money that got wasted through them is a drop in the bucket compared to the waste coming out of the government. But it goes way beyond the waste of money, its the generational effect of the welfare state that keeps families in "poverty" forever.”

“Seems like Jim and Tammy were representative Christians to the hundreds of thousands of people that gave their money to them.

Whether I am taken seriously by you, Sarge, is of little consequence to me.

The adults were talking. Now scamper of to troll elsewhere.

Hyway, I see your point and when I donate my money (obviously, not talking taxes here) it's to non-profits.

However, along the lines of the cycle of poverty, I think, unless you have lived that cycle and made a successful jaunt out of it, it is very hard to say how clear the path to break the cycle is. Personally, I am not sure effective tools are in place to make that happen. Obviously, it begins with providing the structure to create the realization that you can be self-supporting. Where is that given? On one-hand people say, cut them off, that is the realization. It seems to me, all that would do is create hostility, stress, violence, etc.”

“Seems like Jim and Tammy were representative Christians to the hundreds of thousands of people that gave their money to them.

So that makes them Christian? Doesn't sound like "adult" logic to me.”

“I don't care whether you "get it" or not. The point was directed to Hyway and he clearly understood my point.”

““Cry Baby - MarkO

+1! Your wife wears jackboots!!!”
Mutt
9:25:46 AM
8/28/07

Your imaginary wife works at HOOTERS!”

“Nevertheless, you are wrong in assuming they are representative of Christians just because lots of people gave them money under that guise.”

“hyway - I may be missing something. Where do those heritage foundation stats say 37 million americans don't live in "terrible" circumstances?

i see percentages of poor people with certain items.

does the link actually have numbers to refute that one in eight” Americans lack “enough money for the food, shelter, and clothing they need,”?

and besides, you may be logical about this, but that was not the intent of the original post.
last edited: 8/28/07 11:14:37 AM”

“““The very beginning of this thread is actually worth reading. Just remember to stop reading when you get to the slimey part when XL took it over.”
Tilt
11:21:02 AM
8/28/07

Tilt, you get a lot more support for this sentiment if you were to include rosey in that statement as well. Why is it always "the other side" that is the only impediment to rational debate.”
hyway
11:22:01 AM
8/28/07

HyWay, you have sung that song about people "not being fair to neo-cons" many times before.
I think you are paranoid.

XLax indeed slimed this thread.
It started as a light-hearted joke about being victim of goats and your buddy turned it into a tirade denying poverty which is clearly racist in nature.

Rosey came to the game late to slam XLOL and Sarge for their racism, a noble slam if there ever was one and not at all slimey.”

“and try and find that edwards quote. I can't. Of course, this "discussion" is 3yrs old.

[rolleyes]”

“Its all about Edwards' hair, man.

Say, have you guys seen Gonzales' do?
It looks like a hair sculpture.”

“My mom grew up poor on a farm with a schizophrenic dad and 13 brothers and sisters. Now that doesn't make me poor, that whole half of my family were poor. Some lived in welfare projects, some in trailer parks and some in houses that barely remained standing. Some of her sisters ended up with strong and self sufficient families and some stayed on the government dole their whole lives.

My mom eventually married my dad (marine enlisted man) after already having 4 kids before me. So my dad raised the 6 of us (included my younger brother) and my mom's dad (who came to live with us) on the piss poor pay that enlisted men made plus whatever my mom scratched up waiting tables when she wasn't taking care of us. I never thought of us as poor, but I also don't really remember getting many new clothes. It was hand me downs for young hyway. When you have started high school in the 60's wearing the freaking plaid polyester pants your older brother got years earlier that were way out of date when they were bought, then you can tell me I have no reason to think having a car, microwave, color TV and DVD player means you aren't exactly struggling for survival.

I joined the Navy as an enlisted man and when I discovered I didn't like that, I got out and took a minimum wage job installing residential heating and air. Got married to a waitress and we struggled to make a living. her father was a user of the system - food stamps, unemployment, etc while working under the table. Last I heard his family was still living month to month, but at least I showed his daughter a different way.

After our first full year married we went to H&R block to do our taxes. Because my wife was a waitress/hostess her tax rate was somehow mixed up by her employer and we were told that we didn't pay enough taxes and owed $1050 more than what we had already paid. At the table next to us was a couple with a toddler. the wife never worked the entire year and the man maybe worked a total of a few months throughout the year. They hadn't paid anything into the tax base, yet because they were poor and had a child they were getting $1000 back. It was clear as day to me that the way the government worked was for me to pay taxes to support the normal infrastructure of the country, and then kick in an extra grand for the lazy bastards who refused to take care of their own families.

My ex sister in laws husband died at 26 and she and her son both received monthly checks from the government. A government that was happy to keep sending them as long as she didn't get a job or get married. WTF?!?

My best friend's sister got pregnant and became a single mom. At 19 she was giving a nice place to live complete with all utilities paid, all the food she could eat, tuition at the local community college along with transportation to get there, plus other percs. The catch, don't get married or you will lose it all. What was funny was that almost all the women had live in boyfriends. There was zero supervision of the program.

Later I got myself into college and paid my own way through it. Yes I had grants, but I also worked as many hours as I went to school. I guarantee you that any impoverished youth can find more grants and loans than I did.

So, yes, I think there are better ways to end poverty than pumping money through the government.”

“Don't Be a Victim!

With the number of goat traumas increasing every year, it has become necessary to take measures to protect yourself. With this in mind, the Childhood Goat Trauma Foundation has put together this list of advice.

Avoid petting zoos. The majority of goat traumas occurring each year take place at petting zoos.
Stay alert. Goats are deceitful and can hide just about anywhere.
Stay in civilized areas. While there have been reports of roaming urban goats, most attacks by loose goats take place in less populated areas.
Be suspicious of all farm animals. While other animals such as sheep, cows and horses are not by any means the violent creatures that goats are, goats frequently lurk within a herd, waiting to take advantage of peoples' trust in such animals.
There have been some reports of goats avoiding the presence of certain breeds of dogs, but the Foundation has yet to test this theory.


If you must be in an area where goats are present, stay away from the younger goats. Older goats can be slower, allowing you more time to escape.
Wearing earth tones in goat-infested areas may offer some protection from goat attack, due their camoflaging abilities.


We have recently learned that goats have learned to climb trees and drop down onto unsuspecting people”

“By the way HyWay, you're a hell of a guy!!”

“My parents lived in a trailer with a skunk, and they were happy.”

“right. And heritage foundation?

According to HHS a family of 4 in the lower 48 have to be making under $18,850 to be "poor" in 2004.

I guess if they have a car and appliances then they have no material needs? A single person couldn't live in DC for that.

a single person has to make less than 9,000 to be poor.

Guidelines seem a little strict to me.”

“I remember looking for change in my used car in college for food money.

Then the lady said "pull up to the second window" and just then, I found it.”

“My dad was an Irish Catholic milkman(Teamster) with eight kids and a stay-at-home wife.

He's still drawing breath but is no longer a milkman.”

“And since when do they have to mention "color TV"?

Bearmagnet, one must eat their dishwasher and TV before they are truly poor.”

“Once a milkman, always a milkman. Its a brotherhood.”

“This is a true story - I was so poor in college that I made bread since all I had were the basic ingredients for it.

The bread didn't rise and I was totally drunk for like an hour. perma-grin - it was cool”

“lots of rice and ramen”

“Maybe a black-and-white TV is a sign of true poverty.”

“no tv = poverty

If you have a tv, and need money - you should turn it off and go get a job.”

“WOW...all these FREAKING experts on poverty. Well mouseketeers I WORK in that area. I have dealt with people who are not just "down on their luck" but permenant victims. They are third and fourth generation (how bout a 36 year old GREAT GRANDMOTHER) who look at the "Govt. Check" as their DUE.

Do I have a problem with this idea...? Yes. I see it we are PAYING them to RAISE their children. Think about it the programs AFDC etc are designed for young families to properly raise their children. Have any of you ever gone into a house with a NEW Mercedes in the front yard (not on the street since that is too far to walk)Each room has a Flat SCREEN HD TV and a stereo (and on and on).

Rosey you talk the liberal line about CHRISTIAN Charity....please quote me ONE time (with the exception of Lazarus) where the people seeking Saving did not DO something to get it...even if it was to reach out and touch the robe of Christ?

Maybe if we held the families RESPONSIBLE....you know junior shoots his mouth off in school or commits a crime MOMMA loses a chunk of the FREE MONEY from the government.

I have seen the families work their way OUT..(from a system designed to keep them In_) and I have helped them including (like Sarge MONEY.

But since none of you have any real experience in this area you can't comment on it...(LOL)”

“Keep the slime comin'!!

X Baby, if you were truly charitable you would not keep bad-mouthing the people you are supposed to serve for a living.

You are like a mouthy old woman with a wild hair up your ass.

Isn't there an internet board of like-minded fools with whom you could engage in whiney invective about the people you are stuck working with?”

“Rough day at the Mayberry Fire Dept? Were you reprimanded for using the fire pole to expertly grind against? Or did the dalmation piss in your boots, AGAIN!?!”

“Some people seem to have worked everywhere and have done and seen everything.

And Some people only need to see an abuser of a system to confirm all abuse.”

“PLEASE, no Dalmatian jokes !!!        ”

“XLOLOLOLOLOLOLOWOOF!”

“I don't know Tilt, I think Rosey was spot on.”

“You guys are the modern day slave masters, only you are so good hearted that you don't require any work to go with the slave quarters you so generously provide. As long as generation after generation remain on your plantations you are happy to say that the system works.”

“But since none of you have any real experience in this area you can't comment on it...(LOL)”
XL400236
4:05:12 PM
8/28/07

You really need to be very careful what conclusions you jump to. Some of us closer to the issues than you will ever be on your side of the desk.”

“I also thought that was quite the conclusion to draw.”

“rev, you can't really believe that given a decent budget your church, or any private organization, couldn't do better by tenfold than a government run program to lessen the plight of the poor in this country. Would your church let a family live in your church basement for generations without ever giving back for what they receive?”

“It ain't that simple, HyWay.
And don't point that finger, please.

In a way welfare and other forms of assistance are subsidies for business.

1. People on assistance turn that money right over to retailers in a hurry.

2. Low wage-paying businesses are subsidized by those forms of assistance.
The taxpayers take up the slack and that is a large component of the plantation too.
last edited: 8/28/07 1:55:36 PM”

“rev, you can't really believe that given a decent budget your church, or any private organization, couldn't do better by tenfold than a government run program to lessen the plight of the poor in this country. Would your church let a family live in your church basement for generations without ever giving back for what they receive?”
hyway
4:52:45 PM
8/28/07

hyway.... I don't follow where this question came from. I agree and studies have established the faith based non-profits are the most efficient means of assistance.”

“USE THE GOVERNMENT TO FORCE THE CHURCHES TO ELLIMINATE POVERTY!!

WOOOOO-HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!”

“USE THE GOVERNMENT TO FORCE THE CHURCHES TO ELLIMINATE POVERTY!!

WOOOOO-HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!”
Sarge
6:17:40 PM
8/28/07

For the record... not that it matters... I am adamantly opposed to the Faith Based initiative programs.”

“rev, most of this thread has been about the definition of poverty as designated by the government. No one here believes that poverty doesn't exist. Its the way that government is trying solve it is what the debate is about. I thought you were disagreeing with XL about that, but I see it was his broad brush strokes that upset you.”

“Yeah it was the idea that none of us knows anything about poverty that I was calling him on.

Our income could double and we would still be below government thresholds. In any event, I do agree poverty is not a condition, but I also do not accept the idea it is a "choice". Now a frame of mind... that's a different issue.”

“I have to disagree with that. Not all people are in their situation by no fault of their own, but the majority are. When you drop out of school you make a choice. When you decide that crime pays better than working at McDonald's, you make a choice (in reality, for most people, it doesn't pay better). When you have unprotected sex you make a choice. When you get someone pregnant and don't man up to raise the child, you make a choice. When you decide that a welfare check is better than a job, you made a choice.”

“ok, it's time for a bottom line summary of what we all know -

* most people that are poor are so because they choose not to put effort into being successful

* one thing that GREATLY motivates them is the knowledge that the more they 'fail', the more "the government" will come to their aid

* there are exceptions to the rule - some people are mentally and/or physically unable to lead productive lives, and their families are unwilling to help them

* the government, as per the declaration of independence, should help those people

* we should not be spending a penny on those that are in fact looking for the handout, but don't really need it

* that number is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY too big

* cutting government spending down to only help those that need it would almost (percentage wise) reduce the agencies to nothing

* the beatniks mentioned above weigh down our country

* we don't like the beatniks, they are bad

* we don't like how government has been handling this, it is bad

* unless it was given to you, if you have an Xbox, microwave, 2 cars, cable tv, etc.. you are not experiencing poverty

* "separation of church and state" is a frequently incorrectly used, out of context quote

* food stamps are frequently used for cigarettes and brand-name fancy cereals, which even I don't buy and I'm rich as hell (not even close)

* fat people are not poor

* America is full of fat people

* well, some fat people are poor, but that's really just air, not fat, so they should be called air people

* if you're asking the government to give food money to people, you had better be doing the same

* God loves people who don't cheat the system

* God loves people who give out of love

* I can't believe you're reading all of this, but thanks, it means a lot to me that you value and respect my opinion so much

* government welfare is out of freaking hand!”

“I can't believe you're reading all of this, but thanks, it means a lot to me that you value and respect my opinion so much


It could be we didn't see the signature until we scrolled down. >:?P~~~~~~~”

“LOL!”