Are you a victim, too?

“When you decide that a welfare check is better than a job, you made a choice.”
hyway
7:14:36 PM
8/28/07

I find this is "true" in a sense. However, I think it is far too simplistic. I have met a great many people who truly believe they have no choice. For one reason or another, the have become convinced there is no alternative. The assumption that they make a mere choice is assuming they have a full grasp of the facts and fallacies that are out there. As we see even on this board, what one person holds as a fact another can claim as a fallacy. That makes the labeling of something a "choice" to be conclusion we can jump to without merit.

To add to the problem, HHS has a vested interest in keeping the numbers of those on the government programs high. So the options presented by them are not always accurate and appropriate. (I am not speaking of the individual case worker here. But rather the governmental overseers and bureau heads.) The "choice" response seems just too self-righteous for me.”

“For one reason or another, the have become convinced there is no alternative. The assumption that they make a mere choice is assuming they have a full grasp of the facts and fallacies that are out there.

Could you provide an anecdote? I'm curious how somebody could not know they can apply for a job instead of get a welfare check. My experience shows that most people on welfare are all giddy about it and have no problem bucking the system to get a nice new big-screen t.v. Again, keep in mind I said above their are exceptions, but I would like to hear an example of you having an actual conversation with somebody who justified their "choice" without realizing they had other alternatives - and I'd be even more curious how you could complete a conversation with somebody so out of touch with reality. I'm not joking, this isn't sarcasm.”

“Sarge... I am not sure how best to answer your question. I do not take it as sarcasm.

What it comes down to is the permanent "victim" mentality. Read the materials put out there by the Bureau mucky-mucks. Minorities have historically been so mis-treated and manipulated as to be excluded from the mainstream job market. So there really is no point in seeking a job. After all... the cards are stacked against them. And this comes from the experts who should know.

In the area I live, jobs are very few and far between. If you don't have a car, you are pretty well SOL. There is no public transportation. Two things happen, the folks who are here because they can't go anywhere else have been pretty well beaten up by the system. They have tried all the thongs you and others have suggested only to find that the job they thought would be there is not. The factory closed and they are now in competition with many other people who are in the same boat. Or they have to have transportation to get there. It isn't available. It's not that people don't want to take the bus. It's that there are no buses to take, unless you have ride vouchers from the agencies but those are only good for medical appointments and such. Not to get to work.

The second thing that happens here is the agencies in the major metropolitan areas look to us as cheap outsourcing of resources. Why spend $1600 a month keeping your clients in a slum dwelling in Philly when you can get a less slum dwelling in Shamokin for $300 a month. So they put their clients on a bus sometimes even a commercial bus with a ticket in their hand and an apartment in their name and an appointment with a case worker and say They'll take care of you. It happens all the time around here.

Then you have the wonderful scenario where if the person goes to work at a minimum wage job they will lose their food stamp benefits. The family they have can't live on the minimum wage payment, or so they are told. They have to decide for the sake of their family, do they stay on the dole in public housing and government benefits, or do they risk "everything" and take that step which they have been told is a bad choice and may result in charges of child endangerment.

Do you leave your daughter in day care with your father, the same man who molested, raped and abused you as a youngster so you can go to school or work, or do you live on government programs as best you can to spare your child the harm you experienced?

Now, as a Christian, I have some responses to those dilemmas. But not everyone does. Many are simply accepting of the situation as it appears to be. They have learned the tools of the trade. They are "earning" the money they are being given.

It has a certain similarity to the Stockholm Syndrome. I "know" you are the only friend I have in the world, so I will gladly accept and appreciate whatever you want to do to me.”

“Feed the hungry. Clothe the naked. Visit the widow. Give water to the thirsty. Comfort the sick.

A worthy concept that is covered by many religions. This concept is never accompanied by, "If they are worthy".”

“From kindergarten (and even before that if you consider programs like Smart Start) every child is giving the opportunity for an education. Every child is taught what they need to know to be productive in society. For 13 years (or until they drop out) all the necessary tools for a productive life is made available to them.

To believe that there is no alternative to welfare you have to believe that 13 years of effort by the school system, 40 years of effort by civil rights workers, endless legislation, set aside programs, special education funds and training programs, etc are ineffective in developing productive citizens. Or you can choose to believe that if welfare was good enough for your mom and grandmom then its good enough for you.

Call it frame of mind if you want, but its still a long of choosing not to achieve more than your parents did. That is the true crime of the welfare state. That parents don't encourage their kids to do better than they did.”

“Sing it Brother Nigal!”

“To believe that there is no alternative to welfare you have to believe that 13 years of effort by the school system, 40 years of effort by civil rights workers, endless legislation, set aside programs, special education funds and training programs, etc are ineffective in developing productive citizens

And you find that hard belief to hold? Look around. I do not find it a stretch at all. In fact that is exactly what the current mucky mucks behind No Child Left Behind and other [sarcasm]wonderful[/sarcasm] programs are saying themselves. Come on. Get in touch with the real world.”

“

“Feed the hungry. Clothe the naked. Visit the widow. Give water to the thirsty. Comfort the sick.

A worthy concept that is covered by many religions. This concept is never accompanied by, "If they are worthy".”

That's even better! :P”

“NOW we're getting somewhere. Couldn't have said it better. That's what it's all about.”

“visit the naked, i always say”

“And the post of the day goes to Crash Bang! LOL!”

““Feed the hungry. Clothe the naked. Visit the widow. Give water to the thirsty. Comfort the sick.
A worthy concept that is covered by many religions. This concept is never accompanied by, "If they are worthy".”

I completely agree.

Where is the verse about the government mandating it, though? Is that in the O.T.?”

“"Where is the verse about the government mandating it, though? Is that in the O.T.?"

Perhaps it is the verse that says something like, "to insure the domestic tranquility" as interpreted by the modern legislative process.”

“rev, I am in touch with the real world. I live and work in it. I disagree that the system is failing the poor. Its the so called defenders of the poor that are failing them.

marko, this should be the catchphrase for your argument ... Domestic Tranquility through Better Slave Quarters.”

“To insure domestic tranquility through socialism?

Wow. You scare me sometimes. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you're just kidding around.

"I am for doing good to the poor, but I differ in opinion of the means. I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. In my youth I traveled much, and I observed in different countries, that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer." - BF”

“Perhaps it is the verse that says something like, "to insure the domestic tranquility" as interpreted by the modern legislative process.

No my good man. Welfare is the job of the church, not the state.”

“before one of "them" think of it I will counter with:

"Work will make you free?" Wow. You scare me sometimes. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you're just kidding around.”

“"Work will make you free?" <<- What's this a reference to?”

“hyway... you are so absorbed in your own arguments that you are missing the point. "I" am not declaring the system to be failing. I agree the defenders are failing the poor. But you are most decidedly NOT listening to the messages which are coming from the culture and the government which is "The system has failed you!" That is where you are completely out of touch. Your compassion suffers from it and your understanding of the roots of the problems suffer from it. You personally suffer from it. Part of the solution to a problem is understanding how the people who have the problem understand their situation. Your preaching and rhetoric is condemning and destructive. In other words... you are part of the problem.

I know you won't agree with me and frankly, I couldn't care less whether you do or not. But I would seriously hope that you will open your eyes to what is really going on around you. Otherwise you are blaming the wrong people and letting yourself off the hook.”

“Are you kidding me? I know you said work will make you rich, but I was bastardizing it like the "other side" would to make their point.”

““Are you kidding me? I know you said work will make you rich, but I was bastardizing it like the "other side" would to make their point.”

hyway, is this to me or to the rev?

I know I didn't say work will make you rich, and don't remember him saying it. If it was me, can you paste the post that sounded like I was saying it please? You've got me curious.

Oh - never mind - you took "richer", and made it "rich" (or "free") from the Ben Franklin quote. Got it. Yeah, big difference between "rich" and "richer"!!!
last edited: 8/29/07 5:16:07 AM”

“"No my good man. Welfare is the job of the church, not the state."

Are you going to mandate that "Church" take care of all who need?

I didn't think so.

"Church" is also usually biased and is not subject to public law.

And then our good buddy has to play the "socialism card".

We should eliminate public tranportation also since that is labeled "socialist".

What's next, government firefighters?

No taxes, no government, every man is a sovereign nation unto himself.
Yee-Haw, the cult of the individual.
May the strongest survive.
Gentlemen, start your engines!”

“Are you going to mandate that "Church" take care of all who need?

I didn't think so.

Wow! That shows the mentality of the left. Assuming the only solution to problems is to "mandate".

Gives you an idea of who understands the concept of "freedom" and who doesn't.”

“Rev you ever hear of the FIRST organized charity to the poor in the US (talking MAJOR here) it was the Jewish Relief in NY (YEAH I know SH88 is going to hate this)

Regardless of WHO you were they sent people from the synagogue to your house with assistance. Guess what they also had a location of a Job you could go to, and other related support. But if you took no action...the help ceased.


Are their people deserving of our assistance? HE!! yes, one of my closest friends is an elderly lady in one of our neighborhoods. She is near 80, her husband died in World War II, her first son died in Korea and her Second son died in a car crash AFTER he returned from service. She was a school teacher of sorts.

My problem is this, I do not agree with the present system that is DESIGNED to keep people in public assistance. Now Rev I admire what the religious organizations do, some get a bit too "religious" but others provide a sense of purpose.

In the late 1980's one agency I was with had a study that showed the average woman on the FULL public ride (used woman and two kids) would have to start at $10.00 an hour to break even from the benefits. That is just not possible. The system actually was set up to take something like $1.75 to $2.00 for each DOLLAR you earned.

The best thing that EVER happened was Clinton being in office. He did such a wonderful job of exposing what liberalisim TRULY is, the original Conservatives came in and forced things like "Work requirements" (basically the residents have to work something like 8 hours a month in SOME place even a charity). Sadly the Republicrats took that out a few years ago.

The big problem is that when you are a victim and you HANG around VICTIMS, you get into a vicious circle where you can't or won't find a job because you don't feel worthwhile, and you don't feel worthwhile becuase you can't find a job. And since there is no one who TRULY wants to admit they screwed up you have to blame it on someone else.”

“The Childhood Goat Trauma Foundation

Where is our FUEGO NINNY/NANNY when we need him the most??”

“I don't know. Why don't we make a law to mandate him to show up when you need him?

You'd like that, wouldn't you?!”

“"Assuming the only solution to problems is to "mandate"."

No, I said you can't mandate the "church" so, who picks up the slack and does something about social problems?

And if you want a mandate Sarge, see Larry Craig.”

“No, I said you can't mandate the "church" so, who picks up the slack and does something about social problems?

The government, of course.

What you seem to fail to understand is that most of us are not against the government stepping up to help those in need. We just don't believe the 99% of the people who are receiving government assistance actually need it - and in fact, are being more harmed by the assistance than helped.”

“You know I reread Rev and other pertinate statements and I think one other thing is missing....The worst effect of the Nanny State is that we are truly losing the spirit of community we once had. There was a time (not to long ago) when we would go to a neighborhood where there was a house fire. In short order half the neighborhood would be out helping the victims, doing what they could becuse, and I truly believe this, they saw what "COULD" happen to them.

Today the general attitude is "someone else can help".
Following HUGO in Charleston I spent MANY weekends in Charleston working on houses to fix them. I never asked for money, heck I never reported it as "donations" it was WHAT YOU WERE SUPPOSED to do.

Today when a disaster happens we immediatly see people screaming for MOMMY Government to come in.

Closer to home I think it is hilarious when we hear people decry the abuse of some RICH celebrities and their children. Yet we see nothing wrong with the people who CHEAT the system or continue to be lifelong drains on the system. TO me the RICH earned the money, let em spend it. And since I disagree with taking ONE dollar from you to pay for Charity to someone else I find the latter of those two situations much more disgusting.”

“Help and get sued!”

“REALLY Now? please I need to know, can you send me ONE successful suit filed on a Good Samaritan?

By this I mean someone acting within their level of training.

You know the other side of this is when the VICTIMS stop being victims...the Libbies go bananas..just look at San Fransissyco...

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2007/08/the_racial_engineering_of_san.html

They are mad the Black Americans are leaving the city....and want to STOP it.
last edited: 8/29/07 6:19:07 AM”

“REALLY Now? please I need to know, can you send me ONE successful suit filed on a Good Samaritan?

By this I mean someone acting within their level of training.”
XL400236
9:12:49 AM
8/29/07

Your weasel word is "successful". The lawsuits may not be successful. But the fear of a suit, in and of itself, is all it takes. The expense of denfending yourself against an unwarranted suit is staggering. That's why insurance companies will settle out of court in so many cases. Better pony up some funds and cut the losses than to defend the suit and rack up bills and fees that will never be recovered. If a suit is not successful the defendant is still required to pay his own legal fees. Don't quite seem right does it? But that's the way it is.”

“

can you send me ONE successful suit filed on a Good Samaritan?
XL400236

No, I can't. Sorry. I don't save or collect old newspapers.

Besides, I didn't think that anything commonly known required substantiation.”

“You are right there rev, I don't know about your state but we have a Good Samaritan Law in Georgia.

This is why I keep pushing for a law that REQUIRES attorneys to have E&O or Malpractice Insurance to maintain their law license (the ATLA and other Libbie groups oppose it). If some of these sharks knew that they would be held responsible for idiotic suits (if they lost) or even saw they could MAKE money suing other attorneys...yeah that would cut the lawsuits down.

Rev the biggest challenge is the control of Government in our lives. SO many people are growing up today believing they are "OWED" something just because they were born here.

I encounter people who have, by their own actions or inaction had a fire that has burned them out of a government funded dwelling. The reactions run the gamut. From the resident who is just in shock and doesn't know what to do, to the resident who is worried about her children to trying to deny what happened.

The toughest ones to take (and they tend to be the third or fourth generation War on Poverty recipients) look at the burned house (repairs run between 20 and 60 grand depending on damage (that is per unit)) we have informed them say that their kid had a lighter and burned a bed, or they put some fries on and went next door to chat with their girlfriend. But they will look at me and say, "WHO gonna replace my stuff?"

I stood there one night with 4 apartments burned. Four families going to emergency shelter one going to the hospital first for smoke inhalation, becuase the resident with the fire never told anyone until the smoke had filled the apartment next door and set off the detector. The damages turned out to be close to a quarter of a million dollars in damages (guess who is paying for it?).

But the resident responsible for the fire, (7 year old with one of eight lighters set a mattress in the living room on fire) looked at me as I explained the cause and said,"Yeah great, when are you giving me a new house."”

“Besides, I didn't think that anything commonly known required substantiation.

Commonly known? I personally know of none. I'm sure it happens, but very rarely.”

“Commomly known??

Hmmmm....

Roses are red
Violets are purple
Sarge and XL
Suck maple surple”

“sarge, I was joking about your Ben Franklin quote. I know thats not what you were saying.

Rev, actually, it is you that refuses to understand what I am saying. I am saying the same thing you are saying, that the poor are being sold down the river by the establishment. Their leaders have failed them and if more people would stand up and say that instead of "I feel your pain" we could take the first steps to finding a solution. Compassion will never find a solution to poverty. All compassion can do is treat the symptoms.
last edited: 8/29/07 7:02:12 AM”

“nowslimmer by commonly known...are you also including like the common "knowledge" of how Witches could be identified in the 1600 and 1700's????

Common knowledge of "terrible problems" is the HALLMARK of the Victim Society. It supports the "black helicopter" loons, as well as the Elvis is alive and hidden by the government crowd. It also supported the Poor White Trash in the south who were opposed to racial equality for blacks.

No the term "Common Knowledge" is most often used when someone is too lazy to research or just making stuff up.”

“How about work programs to get young people off their butts?

A lot of these kids have not grown up in a household where they see dad and/or mom go off to work every day(OK, five days a week) like most of us successful people have.

When I was a teenager boys could find summer work at any number of construction sites by just driving around and asking.
One or two hits was usually all it took.
And the physical labor was good for body and soul and the usual boyish sense of competition taught one the physical and mental and spiritual value of real work.
There's nothing like a shovel and a hod and a trowel to put some muscle on those teenage bones.
And being tired after a day's work keeps most in the sack and out of trouble at night.

I know my city of Baltimore could use battalions of young workers to pick up the trash and fill pot holes, etc.

Then again, we are likely to hear cries of "socialism" about "make work" programs even though the work needs doing and the young need the lessons of WORK.

In addition, idle hands make for more un-planned pregnancies where those who work hard are too tired to screw......for the most part.”

“Compassion will never find a solution to poverty. All compassion can do is treat the symptoms.

The "problem" isn't poverty. That is the symptom.”

“MarkO, thanks for coming on board. Its good that you have seen the light. Less welfare and more work for benefits.

BTW, lawn mowers, rakes, etc don't cost much and anyone can use on. thats how kids when I was one made money in the summer. That and cropping tobacco and/or washing dishes. I did a lot of that. The first summer I could officially hold a paying job (think i was 13 or 14, i forget what age it was when child labor was allowed) I worked in the maintenance department of my small town as a laborer. Then the rest of high school I was a dishwasher/cook. The work is there for anyone who will look and do a good job.”

“Sarge, I know what you are saying, but there is little chance that you will get the other side to see that refusal to work causes poverty.”

“How about work programs to get young people off their butts?

They already exist. They are called "jobs".

http://www.mcdonalds.com/usa/work/search.html”

““Sarge, I know what you are saying, but there is little chance that you will get the other side to see that refusal to work causes poverty.”

LOL! That's true - and it's like saying "there is little chance you will get the other side to see that refusal to eat causes starvation."”

“well MARKY Mark...(and I agree they need to get out and work) with the defeat of the Immigration Amnesty plan (strangely enough a Republican plan defeated by right wing talk radio???Whats that all about?) you are going to see jobs opening up for kids.

I myself started in construction at the age of 14...(UH HUH..before the real enforcement of RULES) I worked as an assistant foreman by the age of 16 (handling payroll etc). As the illegals begin disappearing you will see the (WARNING LIBBIES THIS MAY HURT TO READ) Free MARKET take over and wages will rise. Yes in Billy Bob wants to get those landscaping jobs done...he is going to have to pay enough to encourage people to work.

LOL...one of my friend's had her son go to Wally World two years ago...today he is an oppressed college student getting paid enough to support his mother and grandmother (okay granted he wanted to WORK).”

“I mean, I agree with some of what is being said here. I think there is a genuine lack of work ethic among the upcoming generations. I have seen it and blame a variety of causes including the celebrity news focus (hey, all I did was write this crappy song/throw this ball/inherit this wad of cash and I have 12 hot babes gyrating all over me and my 15 sports cars parked in front of my 12,000 sqft mansion).

They want it all but don't want to work for it. It's their god-given right to a wide-screen 50' TV. That's part of the reason why jobs are not being filled at McDonalds, why illegals have plenty of job opportunities and why kids are getting fat.

I guess Americans are sick of working 40 hours a week with only two-weeks of vacay a year.”

“What I would like to see is to take a huge chunk of the welfare state funds and put it towards program similar to the military for domestic issues. Of course, since this program wouldn't have people shooting at you nor have the military style discipline, so participants should get paid less than members of the armed forces. Where the military has branches like Army, Air Force and Navy, this domestic program can have different areas for funneling unskilled workers to assist park rangers, ecologists, fire fighters, forest restoration, etc; Urban renewal, infrastructure like highways, airports, utilities, housing, etc; farming; industry; public works; politics; etc.

Instead of slave quarters, we would have indentured servants except that they can leave the program freely and find their own work if they choose. We still get the benefit someone suggested earlier that people on welfare support low wage businesses when they spend there money, but we get an actual return on our tax dollar investment AND a skilled workforce.

But if you opt out, then you better find a job or hope that the good hearted people who like the system as it is are willing to shell out their personal money to keep you fed and housed.”

“OH crap....I agree with Rosey....and I totally agree on the Celebrity Cultists I see that as the primary sales pitch of the GET RICH QUICK crowd.

WOW where can you make a real living for 40 hours of week and more than 3 days in a row on real vacation?”

“Europe.”

“OH crap....I agree with Rosey....

Call 911 !!”