Are you a victim, too?

“So MG what if a person of say, 19, develops a serious illness, having had no time to save enough to pay for even minor treatment.

Also what about those with serious and costly ongoing conditions, like diabetes perhaps? The elderly, how do you deal with the later years in life if for example, your money runs out, what about those in a coma? What if you have a child born with a significant disability that will be costly to treat?

You're seriously destroying the stimulus for man to excel if you let them die before they have any opportunity.
last edited: 9/05/07 8:16:15 AM”

“"People without money should shut-up and die"

That's a little wordy for a bumpersticker.  You'll need to condense it before the next election cycle.”

“Speaking as a DemoRat, tiltypoo?”

“Immigration problems will never be solved without some limits on the huge organizations that control the breeding gounds to the south. B---t?”

“So MG what if a person of say, 19, develops a serious illness, having had no time to save enough to pay for even minor treatment.

3 working years of living and eating at home? Wow. Too much Atari.”

“I was workin' for a living in '82, XLax.
What were you doin', goin' to school on somebody else's dollar?
last edited: 9/05/07 6:29:47 AM”
MarkO
6:29:25 AM


UM marky Mark....In 1982 I was in College, I was in college on money I HAD SET ASIDE for education. Did I work? Um yeah I was doing what you might call Internship work and in the summers to rebuild my money for the next year I was doing construction.

It was all intended to place me in a position where IF I had to make a change in my life I would not have to RELY on the Charity of others to help. As a result I have a good job that I can use to support my family.....

Course in you little example there you kinda miss a couple of entsy tensy itty bitty almost invisible facts (at least to the libbies)

In 1982 we were still recovering from 4 disasterous YEARS of the JIMUH administration so GDP was a bit low...in 1993 we were (thanks to the tax rate reduction of RONDALDUS MAGNUS (Praised be his name) in the midst of the greatest peace time expansion in the HISTORY OF THE WORLD!!!!!”

“I never could have saved up enough to pay for college myself. Congratulations on that feat.

I had to take loans, loans that were subsidized by the government. I also received some government as well as private grant money. Does that make me a POS for taking advantage of what was available to me? I mean, I guess I could have worked 3 jobs for like 10 years to be able to pay the $65,000 without relying on the government.

I don't mean to sound argumentative, but I'm catching the vibe that some of you don't feel the government should be involved in helping citizens get educated. Am I wrong? I kind of hope so.”

“Couldn't you have joined the Army and gone G.I. Bill/ACF?”

“More on topic,

I've noticed that many insurance companies are starting to really make the consumer think about their medical treatment more by doing away with low copays and putting more things under the "deductible" category.

My current health plan does not pay for anything besides annual maintenance type things until I've paid $2K per year. Paying the whole bill instead of $20 to go to the doctor will make you think twice about going in for that cold you've had for 6 hours.

Many other companies are also going to more of the HSA plans, where an even more significant part of the costs are being shifted to the consumers. I dont' think the HSA's are there yet, where a whole lot of people will start taking advantage. The premiums are just too high for it to seem worth the switch.

If the premiums came down a little, they'd be a great insurance vehicle for a young person like myself. Instead of my employer paying $800 a month for health insurance, they can choose to pay half of that, put some money in my HSA and save some money. Being young, that money would most likely build up in my account, and I'd be able to pay the high deductible when catastrophe hits.

anyone think these plans will catch on more?”

“Sarge,

yes I suppose I could have. Is that what would have been the "right" thing for me to do?”

“I don't mean to sound argumentative, but I'm catching the vibe that some of you don't feel the government should be involved in helping citizens get educated. Am I wrong?

No, you are correct. The U.S. government should not be a lender. Leave banking to the banks.”

“Is that what would have been the "right" thing for me to do?

There are several options, of which that is a good one.”

“Well, good, bad, right, or wrong, I'm glad I took advantage of what the government had to offer.

Judging by the taxes I now pay, compared to what I used to pay, I have to assume Uncle Sam will end up with a return on investment in me.
last edited: 9/05/07 10:58:00 AM”

““I never could have saved up enough to pay for college myself. Congratulations on that feat.

I had to take loans, loans that were subsidized by the government. I also received some government as well as private grant money. Does that make me a POS for taking advantage of what was available to me? I mean, I guess I could have worked 3 jobs for like 10 years to be able to pay the $65,000 without relying on the government.

I don't mean to sound argumentative, but I'm catching the vibe that some of you don't feel the government should be involved in helping citizens get educated. Am I wrong? I kind of hope so.”
ductape

$65,000 good googily moogily. I made my own way though college, too. I got a 4 yr engineering degree and racked up less than 1/2 that in student loans. Of course, I went to community college for many of my non-core classes before transferring to NC State. Then I sought out private grants from non-governmental sources, as well as working 30 hours a week, to reduce the amount of LOANs (not handouts which you keep intentionally misunderstanding) I had to get.

The point is that handing out free money to people that are making no effort to reduce their need for assistance is NOT conducive to making productive citizens. Use our tax dollars wisely. I hope all of us would expect a return on our investment.”

“I'm not intentionally misunderstanding anything. I asked because I wanted to be clear.”

“Also, unlike some people think, conservatives are not automatons marching to the beat of our masters. So we are pretty much all over the board on many issues, but at the core we all strongly disagree with supporting the free money lifestyle of people who have no wish to better themselves.”

“Is that a "conservative" view?

I wouldn't think anyone would want to support people who have no wish of coming off of that assistance.”

“duct I am not going to fault you for the way you went through college. It appears you are paying back and that is good. My problem comes with people who look at the government as a continuing "Free RIDE".

I assume you are paying back with a good job? I have a former Highschool friend who is racking up BIG bills on Government dole he found a way to get "free assistance" and he has yet to get a real education or seek a real career.”

“I wouldn't think anyone would want to support people who have no wish of coming off of that assistance.

Unfortunately, the reality is that is exactly what happens. There are so many people mooching off the system, and have no intention of getting off, yet there are people who want even more people on the system. They even go out of their way to make advertising for public assistance. Come one, come all! I can only say so much about this right now.”

“ductape, you must have not been reading this thread if you think there are no people who want to give money to people that don't want to give back.”

“I am definitely paying back the money I borrowed. I also want to be clear that I didn't feel owed the chance to borrow cheap money, but since the opportunity was there, I did jump on it.

I feel more clear now. I thought the tone of the thread was getting to the point of "no government help with anything to anyone." I better understand now. I definitely was not trying to tell anyone what their opinion was.”

“Are conservatives also against lending money, subsidizing and/or bailing out businesses?”

““Are conservatives also against lending money, subsidizing and/or bailing out businesses?”

Absolutely. It's funny how people confuse Republicans with conservatives. I know the Reps do it - and I disagree with their actions, as do most conservatives I know.

In fact, I think it should be unconstitutional. It provides an unfair competitive advantage to one company over another.

The local radio station I listen to (conservative of course) is always yelling about corporate welfare.
last edited: 9/05/07 11:22:17 AM”

“Agreed.”

“I personally opposed the Airline Bailout...but then I was fighting the top lobbyist for the Airlines...(ANYONE WANT TO TELL ME WHO THAT WAS BACK THEN?)”

“The gov't backed loans are a good example of a program which works very well and allows a large percentage of people to go to college that otherwise wouldn't be able to.

You can't leave that to the banks because that was how it used to be. The problem? The banks won't make a $20,000/year loan to someone that doesn't have a college education, can barely work to keep up on the payments and pay for food, housing and go to school. And still won't have any guarantee at a good-paying job to pay off the loan when its all over.

So gov't steps in and guarantees the loans, so the banks will lend the money. Same for first-time home buyers. Its a big gamble to lend $80,000 to a young couple starting out, or an older couple that have saved 20 years to make their down payment. Banks won't make that gamble without the gov't guaranteeing the loan.



Sarge, you asked earlier about the efficiency of the TSP. The system is self-supported through administrative fees charged to the feds that put their money in the system, just like any other investment fund (the TSP has several funds). Those administrative fees are the lowest of any investment fund in the nation (see article), and the returns match similar index funds.

http://www.federalnewsradio.com/index.php?sid=1140121&nid=22”

“Well, y'all know how well the silly libbies can read the minds of evil conseratives and their motives. LOL”

“It was the wife of the PIT YORKIE Tom Daschle,......WAHAAAT? you say incredulously...a Senator's wife was a Lobbyist to the Congress? (*Granted only the HOUSE)”

“charged to the feds? you mean the taxpayer?”

“The problem? The banks won't make a $20,000/year loan to someone that doesn't have a college education, can barely work to keep up on the payments and pay for food, housing and go to school. And still won't have any guarantee at a good-paying job to pay off the loan when its all over.

And why do you think that is? If there was money in it, the banks would do it. Why should the government take a risk like that that any bank is not willing to do? I'm sure they run the numbers.”

“I am not opposed to student loans, but they better get paid back. There are alternatives to loans. I know that there are scholarship programs that pay your way if you agree to work in the public school system for a certain number of years. There are probably more like that. And then there is the military matching funds if you join up.”

“A couple of family members were sent through nursing school tution free. They signed a contract to work with a specific hospital for X amount of time.

If they don't stay long enough, they pay back the pro-rated amount that they didn't "earn." I do know that whatever the percentage was, was taxed on their paychecks each period also. So, I guess it wasn't really a scholarship, but a prepayment for services yet to be rendered.”

“But they got to concentrate on school first without having to work full time and squeeze in classes.”

“Yes. They worked as CNA's or PCA's or something like that while in school.

I couldn't believe how demanding nursing school was. Working 20 hours and going to classes full-time seemed to be pretty rough.”

“Sarge, I got your take on government subsidies for individuals and businesses, how do you feel about foreign aid?”

““ductape, you must have not been reading this thread if you think there are no people who want to give money to people that don't want to give back.”
hyway
11:16:54 AM
9/05/07

I've not read this at all Highway - seems like a deliberate attempt to group any opposing view into "Liberals want to take your money and give it to lazy poor people to me."

I just think your dismissal of 42 million Americans without health insurance is bs - sure a number of those don't want to work, but another chunk are trying to live life as best they can. Not everyone makes such a great success of their lives as you boys here obviously have.

Most people who end up relying on the government aren't born into weathy lives and throw it all away. It's also not the great way to live that you all seem to think it is.
A lot of these people are born into poor families, with parents offering little or no support or direction for making a success of things.
They live in the worst parts of America, and go to bad schools - and yet you want to dismiss their lives because they are not one of the small proportion of people from this situation who manage to pull themselves out of it.

Yes offering them a working way out of this situation is the best thing, but I tell ya, you're going to see a lot of people who are never going to fit into the working world - what do you do with them - let them die, pay tens of thousands to keep them in jail when they start robbing people to buy food?


And your theories on loans would certainly reduce the numbers going to college as many couldn't pay the ridiculous bills for attending the top schools. We'll keep those only for the super rich to send their kids to, right?
Of course it'll mean America won't be competitive glaobally, and all those big corporations you have shares in will start losing cash. They'll then maybe open more locations overseas, where more and better grads are available - still, at least the education system will be cheaper, and you'll have a load of people in the armed forces for a few years, paying off scholarships - and America won't be 'socialist'.
last edited: 9/05/07 12:21:52 PM”

“Well, thanks for asking Nimblefoot!

There is a lot of different scenarios for foreign aid. Primarily, I say stay away from it, but there are exceptions.

Remember, for individuals, I'm for it - as long as they actually need it and aren't trying to take advantage. I kind of feel the same way with foreign aid in some situations. For the most part though our government should stay away. There are plenty of exceptions, like some cases of leveraging for military and economic advantage, etc..

What do you think?”

“I just think your dismissal of 42 million Americans without health insurance is bs - sure a number of those don't want to work, but another chunk are trying to live life as best they can.

How does that break down? How many are self-insured? How many chose to drop plans because they are young and healthy? How many are illegal aliens? etc...”

“Nigal - turns out you're the idiot buddy. I really don't think a UK free at delivery healthcare system would work.

Bawhahahaha! Y2 calls me an idiot ( hey, I had that coming for calling him a twat. I'm a big boy, I can take it.) in one breath and then in the next calls the UK system free!”

“there is no point talking to Y2. His only answer for everything is to let the government pay for it. He is blind to all the avenues that currently exist for people who want to pull themselves up can do it (first and foremost making an effort with the free education they are provided). He's fails to see all the non rich people paying there own way through college (btw Y2, it wasn't me that was against student loans).

All he can do is say "take care of them" without ever requiring anything in return.”

“Where did he say it's free?”

“All he can do is say "take care of them" without ever requiring anything in return.”

Don't forget name calling.”

““there is no point talking to Y2."

Sure there is. To call him a twat. Past that you're pretty much correct.”

“What about a poopie head?”

“Be aware he may pull out his big guns if y'all make him too mad! He might tell y'all "to go suck treebeard's d1ck". LOL”

“Some(busy)body is obsessed with Treebeard.........”

“Why would somebody even think of that? Makes you wonder.”

“Yea, Y2 is, LOL.”

“I think the big question is WHO are they and WHY don't they have insurance. We have a number of people in my county who own their homes OUTRIGHT (paid off years ago) they have dropped homeowners insurance becuase they don't think they need it. My question is..."If they have a fire can we go rob "YOUR HOUSE" to ge the money to make up for their bad planning?"”

“http://www.thebackpacker.com/trailtalk/thread/49202,3.php
Check out this thread. It's Y2, tiltypoo, mArkO, violin...., to a 'T'! LOL”