Gear. Or lack thereof? Ray Jardine

“I would love to hear feedback about the Ray Jardine way. Who's tried it? Who likes it? Who dislikes it?

Personally I think I'd freeze my toosh off, twist an ankle and get super wet. But that's just my first impression. I need to read the book to be sure.”

“Any time you decide to make a change in gear or techniques ,such as lighting the load or trying a diferent peice of gear you have to decide what works best and safest for you, Wether its Ray Jardines way or any body elses !!The more experience you gain the better you will be able to choose what works for you . Going light weight or ultralight all at once is a mistake in my opinion ,its better to be done a little at a time so you dont get caught unprepared out in the sticks.Jardine is a bit of a frootloop!! But he has been around a long time and he has a whole lot of experience and alot of his ideas are good ones.Ive used some of his ideas in some situations such as a homemade pack and siltarp etc and it helped me lighten up quite a bit ,but I could never call my self an ultralighter because my gear needs change alot with diferent trips and the weight goes up and down.Jardenes books are worth reading and alot of his ideas and philosophies are worth trying out but as with any advice or ideas ,take em with a grain of salt.
P.S. for some more excellent ultralight ideas and projects check out Stovestompers site-http://www.datasync.com/~wksmith/welcome.html”

“I have never read anything by Ray Jardine. Is any of his books worth buying?”

“Hey Pixie, if you end up hiking with us you'll see a wide range of styles, from heavy pack donkey to superultralitewanker. I have found it to be fun, as I am always getting new ideas on gear and how to lighten my load-I have gone from 45 lbs in 2001 to 35 in 2003 to my late spring/summer load of 2004 being 25 lbs fully loaded-and I sleep in a tent :-)”

“Light is right.”

“Streamweaver is right - you gotta do it a little at a time. It is a process over time, where not just your gear changes, but your mindset, too. Lighweight is a state of mind AND equipment, in a progression. First you change your mind a little, then a little equipment, then your mind a little more, then more equipment. Every trip or new web site you find gives you another idea. Several years later you are much lighter. But you never quite reach your goal, you continue to evolve. If you try to do it all at once you will be unsafe and unhappy.

When I decided it was time to lighten up 3 or 4 years ago I went on the net and read every site I could find - starting with backpacking.net, going to Stovestomper's, etc. Then I changed one piece of equipment for the next trip (Pepsi stove), then read more, next trip changed another piece, and the cycle continues. Keep in mind that "lightweight" for you is different than for anyone else. Hike your own hike. I admire those that get their summer packs to 9.73624 pounds, but I know I'll be closer to 17 this year. I found my own path, you find yours, but borrow ideas from each other.

Most people suggest that in the first cycles you work on the Big 4 (some call it the Big 3) to get the biggest bang for your buck upfront. They are: cooking system, tent system, sleeping system, pack. Then nitpick on everything else. However, I think you should leave the pack for last. Several years from now you'll know exactly how much room you really need in that new pack after everything else has shrunk and lightened up.”

“Lots of good advice here already. I think the keys are

1) Be sure that there is a good reason for every ounce you carry. Only you can decide if what you carry is worth the weight. I skipped carrying a stove last summer, but still carried a pur hiker water filter. Hot food mattered less to me than fresh cold chemical free water. Some people do the opposite, carrying lots of cooking stuff - but taking chemical water treatment tabs.

2) Stay on the lookout for new ideas and try out the ones that appeal to you.”

“As you review your gear, think about the Golden Rule of Gear: multifunction, lightest possible, smallest possible. In other words, make sure every item in your pack has more than one use, and/or nothing else can do the same job; it is the lightest version of that item; it is the smallest version of that item. It applies to non-lightweight backpacking, too.

I carry a mini-tool which has a blade for cutting and small pliers which act as my pot grabber, so I don't need a separate pot grabber with separate handle (the *handle* isn't duplicated). I got the smallest, lightest sleeping bag in the temperature rating I wanted. List goes on.

Think about this... In programming (my profession), we tell customers they can have:
1. more quality (fewer bugs)
2. more functions in their software
3. a faster development time
PICK TWO.

This applies to gear, too, and you run into this more and more as you try to go smaller and lighter. The list is a little different:
1. smaller weight
2. smaller size
3. smaller price
PICK TWO.
If you buy the smallest, lightest sleeping bag, it is usually the most expensive. There ARE exceptions if you include homemade gear, but for most commercial gear this applies.”

“Great advice everyone!

I started with about a 50lb pack when I got back into backpacking, was it really only last year? I started looking over the different websites and realized that I would enjoy myself alot more if my pack was lighter. So slowly I began pruning my pack weight down. Last weekend my pack weighed 24lbs with food and water for a 3 day 2 night trip. I was comfortable although at one point I had all my clothes on and wished I had a heavier fleece. The temps went down into the 30's that night. So I just went to bed. Is this as light as I can go? No probably not. Will I go lighter? Yes, as it gets warmer.

One of the things that has helped me the most is an Excel spreadsheet with all of my gear and it's weights. I can run thru it and check off the gear I want to take and it computes the weight. This also allows me to look at it again after a trip and see if I actually used everthing that I carried. If I didn't use it do I really need to carry it next time?

When you see people that ost ther pack weights on the net the first thing you have to ask is, "where are they backpacking?" Of course people hiking in the south or southwest will have lighter packs because they do not always need warm clothing and sleeping bags, some even do without full rain gear. I backpack in the NE and I would not go out without full rain gear, a 30* sleeping bag and at least a microfleece and a base layer. Mountain temps in the 30's and 40's are not unusual in the summer.

Good luck!”

“The 4 can also become the 5.

With a much lighter pack you can use lighter boots or trail runners as without so much weight you need less foot support.
1Lb off your feet is like 5lbs off your back.”

“heavy pack donkey

A little harsh on yourself, aren't you? You are possibly a mule, certainly an ass, but donkey?”

“I'll repeat the idea of progressing to a lighter system. I started backpacking by carrying almost everything I thought I "might" need. I would gear up for an overnighter with several days worth of supplies. Gradually I dropped weight and am now comfortable in the low 20 pound range for fair weather. I'm not a Jardine follower, but I've found what works for me.

Lthiker is right that a lot of pack weight is determined by where you're hiking. My late-May Rockies trip will require as much gear as a dead-of-winter trip in Illinois.”

“His principle of lightweight is great, but take what he says with a pinch of salt. There some good ideas in the book, but overall I think most people favor a different style to him. I found Chris Townsend's book on Advanced backpacking much more realistic and useful.”

“Thanks guys. I am a stupid packer overall. I like to have a lot of sheet and I do use it all. But this makes more than one night and longer hikes in not a possibility for me. (You should see my luggage on trips! Woo!)
What is the Pepsi stove? Sounds intriguing?
For me rain gear is a definite necessity. I live in the Seattle area. While there isn't heavy rain, a constant drizzle can be quite miserable.
Has anyone tried Jardine's tarp vs a tent? I think I'm most curious about that. And please Mr. Jardine, tennis shoes in the Pacific NW? I don't think they are waterproof enough. Cold wet tootsies. No thanks!
Keep the info coming everybody!”

“Yes I use a tarp. although I combine it with a Outdoor Resaerch Bug Bivy. i don't like things crawling on me.
Sneakers wouldn't cut it here in the NE either too many rocks.

A pepsi can stove is a homemade stove that burns alchol. Google it and you will find many designs that are easy to make or checkout Stove Stompers homepage.”

“I tried the trap thing out for the first time last weekend. I still need a little more practice setting the thing up and it didn't look like much, but it keep me dry through an early morning rain shower.”

“Whats a trap?”

“lol
Dyslexic not am I.”

“ive got to weigh my pack next time i go where there is a scale..wait how high to the produce scales in grocery stores go?? think they would mind?? last time at amicalola i think it was pushing 19 without water...but with everything else...now i have a hammock so it should be down to prolly 14-15 i would hope...but i dont carry nearly as much as most people...i have yet to have any problems ...”

“I use various tarps with either a bug hut or a bivy sack for most of my solo trips. The weight savings is great and I feel more "connected" to the woods.”

“doesn't jardine go off the deep end a little bit ?

i heard he says things like, " you can build up an immunity to giarda " and "it's mother natures design for you to sleep directly on the ground" and stuff like that in his book.”

“Hey pixie, I think I'd forget about a Pepsi stove around here (unless you're trying to lose weight by not eating). They flake out in lower temps, which you will run into in abundance in the Cascades.

For about $30-$40 and around 3 oz. you could have a real stove like a MSR Pocket Rocket or the Coleman Exponent F1 Ultralight.”

“Ok, Pepsi can out.
Funny thing about giardia. My crazy brother who has lived in "higher altitudes" for years (Steven's Pass ski area employee) drinks water out of rivers and stuff all the time. He's nuts. But he doesn't get sick amazingly enough. He claims it has to be "rushing water" to be safe. Oooooo Kaaaaay....
I hate being cold and Ray claims his tarps are warmer because they cut down on condensation. Hmmm. Any other tarp users?”

“Pixie, for the most part water is safe in the Cascades...but! You never know. Then again, your brother may have an immunity to everything ;-)
What I avoid is water near lakes that have a high concentration of humans...human waste is the ickiest!!!!!”

“You'll find a lot of tarp lovers out there, but I don't happen to be one. What's the diff between a little condensation and the amount of moisture you'll get when the rain is coming down sideways? Or the amount of relief from bugs you can get in a tent vs. a tarp?

Your brother has been lucky. I've backpacked for 30 years and started filtering about five years ago. One bout with Mr. Giardia was enough to convince me.”

“I disagree with kleetn. I've used my Pepsi stove well below freezing - in the low 20's. The only problem is the preheat to get it lit. Once lit, no problem. I use a larger "cat food" type can (with holes in it for air) which the stove sits in - spill a little fuel in the large can and light. Heats up the stove and then lights it automatically. Make sure you don't put the stove on anything freezing, like a sheet of ice, and you are fine.”

“I also will add that the change of mind/attitude starts with the ability to try new gear, even when others say it isn't going to work. The first time I brought a Pepsi stove on a trip, everyone else on the trip laughed ("that can't possibly cook your dinner") - and I didn't use it. Next trip (w/o those people) I used it and never went back. They still carry 50 pound packs and mine is 20. Now who is laughing?

When you are ready to try something radical, take both items (old and new) on your next trip. Take your Pepsi stove and your old stove. Take your tent and your new tarp.... Try the new stuff out, and if it doesn't work, you have your old stuff for backup. Over time you find what works for you, and what doesn't.

On the issue of the stove, I have also read reports of the Pepsi stove working fine at high altitudes, too.”

“Here is my 12.5lb gear list from this weekend, if you want ot get an idea what some lightweighters carry. I don't consider myself an ultralighter, just a lightweight backpacker. I was around 22lbs with three days two nights worth of food and 2l of water.

Gear List”

“techntrek just made a great point. If you're trying something out of the ordinary, take the "old reliable", too. I had to give up one night because I couldn't pitch a 6x8 tarp well enough to block sideways snow.”

“T-mac, do you think a square tarp would have been better? I am thinking about making my own and I was debating over making it square. Seems like it would give you more setup options.”

“Lthiker: I moved up to an 8x10 for most nights. If the forecast calls for a lot of wind-driven snow or rain, I have a MSR Twin Peaks (like the Betamid). I do think a square tarp (why do I keep typing tapr?) would pitch better as a diamond, but I've never tried one.”

“How do you like the twin peaks? I have a Trekker tarp that I sometimes carry, if only it was lighter. That is another thing I am thinking about making, a silnylon trekker tarp, that would be cool.”

“I like it. I've used it in the Smokies and here in IL. It sets up easily and seems stable. I get some condensation, but perhaps I pitch it too low. I haven't used it in really bad weather yet, but its been fine through rains and sub-zero nights. I considered buying the Betalight but decided a few extra ounces was okay for winter because it gave me a heavier material. I'll have a better feel for its weather-worthiness in two weeks as I'm taking it up the Rockies.”

“While I don’t care for Ray as a person I have taken a great deal away from his books. The biggest thing is that it’s not so much what gear you carry but in your knowledge of the outdoors that counts. If a lighter item will do the same thing as a heavier item then so be it.”

“DeoreDX: That's a pretty impressive gear list. It's a good reference. Thanks.

Everyone: I still haven't read his book. I might pick it up this evening. I am far from being an extremist when it comes to anything, so I will be reading it more for interest than anything.

What is silnylon?”

“T Mac and Lthiker,

I made my own silnylon tarp. At first, it was 10' x 10'. I found it hard to deal with. I use my trekker poles with it, and it was just too wide. I ended up cutting it to 8x10, and I like it a lot better, and find the rectangle offers more options than the square.”

“pixie - silicone impregnated nylon. Good old nylon that is soaked in silicone. Lightweight, waterproof.”

“Does anyone notice that while silnylon is water proof it doesn't tend to repel water? When I pack up my trap it holds onto the water rather than causing it to roll off.”

“In my experience Silnylon just repels water and doesn't absorb any. Are you using the uncoated 1.1oz that Wal Mart sells? I've found it to be mostly waterproof and it absorbs water like you describe.

BTW, here is my winter gear list.

17.5lb Winter Gear list. This keeps me warm down into the teens.”

“Nigal: The water beads and rolls off my sil tarp.

Cindy_lu: Thanks for the insight.”

“The tarp is silnylon but it acts like it's wet out. But it doesn't leak through at all. It's about 3-4 years old. Would a coat of spray silicon be of help, ya think?”

“Sounds like it needs to be recoated, Nigal. My silnylon stuff always beads water.”

“DeoreDX, you really have your pack list fine tuned. (BTW I love that you still have your "booze bottle." hee hee.)”