cuttin heads off

“That's assuming that all of the detainees were resistance fighters, which is untrue.

The geneva convention's rules on civilian detainees are even more stringent.

Article 3
In the case of armed conflict not of an international character occurring in the territory of one of the High Contracting Parties, each Party to the conflict shall be bound to apply, as a minimum, the following provisions:

1. Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria.

To this end, the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever with respect to the above-mentioned persons:

(a) Violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture;

(b) Taking of hostages;

(c) Outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment;

(d) The passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions without previous judgment pronounced by a regularly constituted court, affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples.

2. The wounded and sick shall be collected and cared for.

An impartial humanitarian body, such as the International Committee of the Red Cross, may offer its services to the Parties to the conflict.

The Parties to the conflict should further endeavour to bring into force, by means of special agreements, all or part of the other provisions of the present Convention.

The application of the preceding provisions shall not affect the legal status of the Parties to the conflict.

Article 4
Persons protected by the Convention are those who, at a given moment and in any manner whatsoever, find themselves, in case of a conflict or occupation, in the hands of a Party to the conflict or Occupying Power of which they are not nationals.

Nationals of a State which is not bound by the Convention are not protected by it. Nationals of a neutral State who find themselves in the territory of a belligerent State, and nationals of a co-belligerent State, shall not be regarded as protected persons while the State of which they are nationals has normal diplomatic representation in the State in whose hands they are.

The provisions of Part II are, however, wider in application, as defined in Article 13.

Persons protected by the Geneva Convention for the Amelioration of the Condition of the Wounded and Sick in Armed Forces in the Field of August 12, 1949, or by the Geneva Convention for the Amelioration of the Condition of Wounded, Sick and Shipwrecked Members of Armed Forces at Sea of August 12, 1949, or by the Geneva Convention relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War of August 12, 1949, shall not be considered as protected persons within the meaning of the present Convention.


There's no way around it. You're wrong. The acts we've committed are war crimes, however you want to try to spin it.”

“From www.denverpost.com:

The deaths include the killing in November of a high-level Iraqi general who was shoved into a sleeping bag and suffocated, according to the Pentagon report. The documents contradict an earlier Defense Department statement that said the general died "of natural causes" during an interrogation. Pentagon officials declined to comment on the new disclosure.

Another Iraqi military officer, records show, was asphyxiated after being gagged, his hands tied to the top of his cell door.

"Torture is the only thing you can call this," said a Pentagon source with knowledge of internal investigations into prisoner abuses. "There is a lot about our country's interrogation techniques that is very troubling. These are violations of military law."”

“Goog point, vio.

Also, Savage, even if they didn't meet the law's definitions of war crimes - which they do - You'd be hard-pressed to say that these are not criminal acts committed against defenseless prisoners. I would hope that even one so partisan as yourself would find that repugnant.”

“Since it is not the Iraqi army dressed in uniforms, but rather guerilla fighters (some not even Iraqi), the Geneva Convention does not apply."
Savage
03:21:02 PM


That would invalidate the argument I have heard about what the insurgents did to our people, including Nick Berg, then. Wouldn't it?”

“It would also mean that every atrocity heaped on members of the French Resistance in WW2 was not a crime under international law.

It's a stupid, unsupportable viewpoint.”

“And a round and round and round we go, where we stop, nobody knows?


Look, it's just time to just have us all become Republicans.

Hell, they have ALL the FUN!

Chit, it used to be that the Dems would get away with everything.

I say "Just who gives a chit? Rules? We don't need no phuckin` rules (that is unless we want to cause an uproar with the people, then and only then will we shout it from the tallest soapbox in the land...... Rush's Ass) !"

Become Repubilcan!

Everybody's doing it. What are you any ways, some kind of Commmie or somethin`?”

“I may register Republican after the presidential election. California only allows a voter to vote in the primary for the party he's registered in, and those are going to be the interesting primaries for the next few years.”

“Get off the Oxycotine laqtis.”

“Nationals of a State which is not bound by the Convention are not protected by it.”

“Hey!

I'm not kidding!


I kow I have my old Brown Shirt around here someplace.

Time to being out my old Nixon NOW button and hit the streets running!


Yipppeeeee!~”

“You're WRONG, savage. I'm not sure if you're saying that out of ignorance or spite, but either way it's incorrect.

link

Protocol Additional to the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949, and Relating to the Protection of Victims of Non-International Armed Conflicts (Protocol II)
Adopted on 8 June 1977 by the Diplomatic Conference on the Reaffirmation and Development of
International Humanitarian Law applicable in Armed Conflicts
entry into force 7 December 1978, in accordance with Article 23”

“The upshot of the whole thing is that, under international law, you don't get to invade a country, capture its ex military, civilians and non-uniformed fighters and torture them. It's a war crime.”

“Dood ~ Phead !


Who cares?


All Repubs get a free pass, man!


(Phaed ~ Come to the Darkside, Phaed. We have better Beer!)


It's so much EASIER!


No fact checkin`, needed over here.


AND the grass IS really greener (although we won't admit that one........wait a minute......thanks right....WHO CARES!?!?!?)


Yiiipppeeeeeeeeeee ~~~~~”

“Article 4.-Fundamental guarantees
Phaedrus, it's getting hard to follow your conversation with Whack-tis jumping in. Whack-tis read the label on the little brown bottle and take the right dosage next time. Okay?

From your link........

1. All persons who do not take a direct part or who have ceased to take part in hostilities, whether or not their liberty has been restricted, are entitled to respect for their person, honour and convictions and religious practices.”

“Where did you get that photo?”

“Savage - Now is THAT any way to treat a fellow Republican?

I still know the secret handshake!


C'Mon! I'm sick of being on the bad guys side, I wanna be GOOD again!

Hey, where are you going with those toys!?!?!”

“Article 5.-Persons whose liberty has been restricted
1. In addition to the provisions of Article 4, the following provisions shall be respected as a minimum with regard to persons deprived of their liberty for reasons related to the armed conflict, whether they are interned or detained:
(a) The wounded and the sick shall be treated in accordance with Article 7; ...

Amnesty international, Human rights watch, and ”

“Article 5.-Persons whose liberty has been restricted
1. In addition to the provisions of Article 4, the following provisions shall be respected as a minimum with regard to persons deprived of their liberty for reasons related to the armed conflict, whether they are interned or detained:
(a) The wounded and the sick shall be treated in accordance with Article 7; ...

Amnesty international, Human rights watch, and Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba have called the acts "war crimes".”

“Hey. what's the big #&%!$ing deal? I was cutting head off back when it wasn't in style. Give me some #&%!$ing props.”

“In case you decide not to read the entire CSM article:

The New Yorker reports that a military investigation carried out by Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba, uncovered evidence of "war crimes" against the inmates, including: breaking chemical lights and pouring the phosphoric liquid on detainees; pouring cold water on naked detainees; beating detainees with a broom handle and a chair; threatening male detainees with rape; sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick. ”

“I noticed while the Geneva conventions were being posted above that the one about not publishing pictures of POWs was left out, which would probably dampen the reporting of this incident.”

“True, SMW. The pics are a driving force behing a lot of the outrage. Still, it's just another rule we've broken that we were screaming about when the Iraqis had our prisoners.”

“I'm not condoning their actions by any means. I think they should be punished with whatever is covered under the UCMJ. I don't think it should be any more public or more scrutinizedthan any other court martial. The military knows they need to get rid of these bad apples and make an example of them. They don't need a Senate committee to show them how to do it.”

“Hey everyone!

Just heard from Donnies mouth. He sez the Convention applies to all in Iraq. Everywhere in Iraq.

His own words!

Conversation OVER!


Let the war crimes begin!”

“SMW, the issue being discussed before the committee is whether this is part of a larger system of abuse, and without the public eye on it, I have no faith that this issue would be properly addressed by the military alone.”

“Who was tortured to death?”

“One more time.”

“Oh, I see. The guilty before charged spin.

Good Job Phaedy. As to your War Crimes rantings, I think they”

“This crappy laptop is more aggravating than phaedy.”

“They're war crimes, moron. Beating, sodomizing and killing prisoners in a war zone is a war crime.”

“Heeellllloooooo!


I SAID

Rummy himself said that they are ALL covered by the Convention!

No kidding. I saw the clip on Hardball tonight. No outta context, straight fomr the horses mouth.

So, if HE thinks there covered, what's the frickin` problem? He has to abide by them!

Live by the sword, die by the sword, right?”

“Crimes have been committed. What is your point? They are prosecuting the perps. It is not like the crimes are being sanctioned.

Were the prisoners who died killed by torture? Where they wounded when brought into custody? Hundreds of US soldiers died of natural causes and accidents. Prisoners kill prisoners.

Why don't we hear your voice protesting deaths in domestic prisons?”

“Anyone who believes this is just a few bad apples who took it upon themselves to do this does not support the troops. Anyone who brushes this off as no big deal disrespects the proud tradition of our armed forces.

These kids claim they were following orders. They were not schooled on the Geneva Accords. There are the same exact abuses happening in other prisons in Iraq and as I understand it, in Afghanistan as well. This was directed by people further up the chain of command and they are trying to make these 19 and 20 year old kids take the fall for their crimes. As General Hackworth says, A Fish Stinks from the Head First.”

“Colonel that is.”

“I saw some pictures of naked prisoners. I saw pictures of soldiers posing with dead bodies. I have not heard many specifics, but the conspiracy theories seem appropriate.”

“Dismissing everything that you haven't read about as a conspiracy theory makes pretty much everything a conspiracy theory, buttboy.

I've linked to several articles on this thread, as has Violin, that make a compelling case that a systemic pattern of abuse led to these incidents.

You hold the military's leaders accountable for nothing and claim to be a proponent of personal responsibility. Pfft.”

“WHAT! Give me a friggin' break! I heard the same thing from my neighbor the other day, who then went into a rant about how Clinton had two kids murdered on train tracks because they stumbled upon a late night drug deal at an airport in Arkansas when Clinton was Gov.

I now know why Bush has so many supporters, there ARE people dumber than him out there!”

“I agree with buddha. Making accusations is easy. Lets see the proof.”

“"It is not like the crimes are being sanctioned.........."


New front in Iraq detainee abuse scandal?
NBC News exclusive: Delta Force subject of investigation; Pentagon official denies abuse
By Campbell Brown
Correspondent
NBC News
Updated: 8:10 p.m. ET May 20, 2004


BAGHDAD - With attention focused on the seven soldiers charged with abuse at the Abu Ghraib prison, U.S. military and intelligence officials familiar with the situation tell NBC News the Army’s elite Delta Force is now the subject of a Pentagon inspector general investigation into abuse against detainees.

The target is a top-secret site near Baghdad’s airport. The battlefield interrogation facility known as the “BIF” is pictured in satellite photos.

According to two top U.S. government sources, it is the scene of the most egregious violations of the Geneva Conventions in all of Iraq’s prisons. A place where the normal rules of interrogation don’t apply, Delta Force’s BIF only holds Iraqi insurgents and suspected terrorists — but not the most wanted among Saddam’s lieutenants pictured on the deck of cards.

These sources say the prisoners there are hooded from the moment they are captured. They are kept in tiny dark cells. And in the BIF’s six interrogation rooms, Delta Force soldiers routinely drug prisoners, hold a prisoner under water until he thinks he’s drowning, or smother them almost to suffocation.

In Washington Thursday evening, a senior Pentagon official denied allegations of prisoner abuse at Battlefield Interrogation Facilities operated by Delta Force in Iraq. And he said the tactics described in this report are not used in those facilities

All of those practices would be violations of the Geneva Conventions. The conventions do not apply to stateless terrorists — the so-called non-enemy combatants like al-Qaida suspects caught by the United States in Afghanistan.

But as Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld has made clear, the Geneva Conventions do apply in Iraq.

“Iraq's a nation. The United States is a nation. The Geneva Conventions applied. They have applied every single day from the outset,” Rumsfeld has said.








HEY! THIS IS MY FAVORITE PART! READ ON!!!




So, does Rumfeld know about the BIF and what goes on there?

Several top U.S. military and intelligence sources say yes, and that he, through other top Pentagon officials, directed the U.S. head of intelligence in Iraq, Gen. Barbara Fast, and others to bring some of the methods used at the BIF to prisons like Abu Ghraib, in hopes of getting better intelligence from Iraqi detainees.

The Pentagon’s top spokesman in Iraq says the military will not comment on the BIF or what goes on there. He was unwilling to even confirm or deny its existence. Gen. Fast declined our request for an interview due to the ongoing prison abuse investigation, one that has so far yielded charges against only the military’s lowest ranks.

© 2004 MSNBC Interactive”

“Looks like y'all are SMOKED!


WAR CRIMES FOR ALL!!!!



YYYYIIIPPPPPPPPPPPPEEEE~~~~~”

“I think Donald Rumsfield took the pictures of that Army chick giving the thumbs up posing with the dead guy.

It was orchestrated from the top!”

“Bush's experience as a prep school cheerleader explains the naked prisoner pyramid.”

“from an article at CNN.com

"The San Francisco/Boston Democrats led by John Kerry have now adopted 'Blame America First' as their official policy," RNC Chairman Ed Gillespie said in the statement."


Ahhhh, no, it's blame GWB and his merry band of moronic conservative supporters. This statement by Gillespie is just another outright misleading lie by the Republicans!

GWB is not America, and thank gawd, he'll be gone soon!”

“ROFLMAO!!!!!!”

“US soldiers are willing to take the fall for the Administration. It is a conspiracy. Soldiers always support corrupt officers. They never rat out the CIA operatives.”

“Funny how frat hazing in an Iraqi prison has turned into the holocaust.”

“and frat hazing is still legal?


Where?”

“It is called college, lapiss.

Something you know nothing about.”