cuttin heads off

“Sarge unconditionally supports criminal homicide.

Lecture me again about morals.”

“Beatings for everyone!”

“violin supports terrorism”

“Beat all detainees? You specifically said you were glad they were told that. These people hadn't been given any sort of due process, yet you're for going against the American way of due process and skipping straight to the torture?

Why do you hate what America stands for so much, Sarge?”

“They're not citizens. They don't have constitutional rights. Did you think they were citizens Phaedrus?”

“Hey Phaedrus, next war we'll ask people if it's ok if we shoot them to death before doing so. We don't want to hurt anybody's rights. Maybe we can engage them in a game of scrabble instead of actually fighting.”

“I feel it is my duty to rebuke you brother sarge.”

“I hope that statement is a sick april fools joke . ..just to get Violin's goat.


If not.


YOu are a disgrace to this country and this flag.

You are disgrace to the men and women who put their lives on the line every day to defend this country and this flag.

You are a disgrace to the ideals of life, liberty and the pursuit of happieness.

YOu are disgrace to your god, to your countrymen and the to solider you served with (unless you didn't serve and are just using the trailname "sarge" because you an f-ed up solider wannabe who doesn't have the first clue what it means to wear the uniform of this country).

You are a disgrace to the men and women of the country who wear the uniform with pride and try to uphold the ideals that it represents.



I'm not naive Sarge. I can only begin to imagine the stress of living day to dya in Iraq not knowing where or when the next RPG or raodsie bomb will come from.

I can understand and appreciate the passion/hatred/fear/disgust that would cause someone to lash out at an Iraqi prisioner.

Heck . ..I have wanted to beat the crap out of you several times and you aren't even shooting at me.


But for you, to condone it. Encourage it. Celebrate it. Support it.


YOU are the worst America has to offer. The worst.


You are not a patriot. You are not fit to hold a patriots jock strap.


Go trot that language out in front of John McCain.

You're a piece of #&%!$. Not a real american.”

“Once they're in custody, they're no longer combatants. They're prisoners of war. Americans also become prisoners of war. Is that they way you want American POWs treated Sarge?”

“Sarge, why do you hate the ideals of freedom and justice FOR ALL?”

“Why do you hate America, Sarge?”

“lee - If you ever get the urge to beat the crap out of me as you say, please, don't hesistate to try.

Geo - Guess what? They do that. They behead them too. Have you been watching the news at all Geo? The BEHEAD them. What do we do? Put panties on their head and have dogs bark at them. Awww ... and we upset them. Poor babies.”

“In case you somehow think I am joking, or just being over the top, let me repeat.


The attitude you represent in celebrating abuses . . .

I believe . . .

truly represent the absolute worst America has to offer.

YOU are the worst America has to offer. YOU represent all that is narrow minded, ethnocentric, vicious, violent, unthinking, unpatriotic stupidity.


Let me repeat that: YOU ARE NOT A PATRIOT.

You do as much or more damage to America than those who burn flags or spit on soliders.


You are a disgrace.”

“Sarge, I served in the Army. At no time did I ever hear that it was okay to mistreat prisoners of war. Nothing justifies it. Nothing. I happen to believe in the Uniform Code of Military Justice. Don't try your ersatz argument out on me. There is no way the terrorists beheading kidnap victims can justify members of our military mistreating prisoners of war.

But since you raise that argument, which came first? Maybe they were using your justification.

But the bottom line is this. If we hope to have any moral reason to decry what is done to our people who are taken prisoner of war, we cannot stoop to their methods.

That's the way it was in the Army in which I served.”

“Geobeet.

there is no point. There is no non-com or officer, in the army worth his or her stripes that would commend that behavior.

None.”

“Unfortunately lee, there are. But they're either serving time or about to serve time, as it should be. And luckily for them, the treatment they receive in prison will not be the treatment they meted out. They're disgraces to the uniform.

But there are others, apparently, who are involved in this and they still need to be brought to justice.”

“As usual, everything gets blown out of proportion.

Geo, did the Army teach you anything about verbal abuse?”

““Once they're in custody, they're no longer combatants. They're prisoners of war.

Geobeet
12:23:09 PM
4/01/05

Only if they are in uniform Geobeet.
The Geneva articles only apply to people recognisable as combatants.

If no uniform and they are spies and can be executed.

The UN Human Rights accord is what outlaws torture. Of Course the USA does not have a seat on that Council.

Significantly, six of the eighteen most repressive governments--those of China, Cuba, Eritrea, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, and Zimbabwe--are members of the Commission on Human Rights (CHR), representing nearly 11 percent of the 53-member body.”

“but they are humans. America is supposed to represent a force for good. Not getting down in the gutter with them.”

“Once a person is in custody and no longer a threat, they are still a prisoner in our custody. Even the Nazi heirarchy was treated humanely before their executions.”

“bacpac, getting lectured about verbal abuse by you is laughable.”

“Y2, yes they are human too, but so are their victims whom they bomb.

If you capture a person making bombs to kill civilian non-combatants (women and children) what is acceptable to find out where the materials came from ??

Do you just incarcerate this one person and allow the fellow terrorist to kill more ? what is reasonable and where is the line?

We do not live in a black and white world.

Of course most of them are also fed disinformation so any there is a reasonable probability that any data obtained under duress is bogus anyway.”

“Sarge, I served in the Army. At no time did I ever hear that it was okay to mistreat prisoners of war. Nothing justifies it. Nothing. I happen to believe in the Uniform Code of Military Justice. -- Geo

Same thing I said about Kerry. He admitted to breaking the UCMJ. At no time did I ever hear that it was okay to break the UCMJ. He knew that, especially as an officer. He was a disgrace to the uniform. Oh, that other stuff, that was me trolling. LOL at you.”

““They're not citizens. They don't have constitutional rights. Did you think they were citizens Phaedrus?”
Sarge
10:18:24 AM
4/01/05

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=domesticNews&storyID=8059040”

“So, Sarge are you a liar?”

“Phaedrus - Where in that article does it say he was tortured? Which paragraph? Thanks in advance. We were talking about tortured insurgents, right?”

“So it's not okay to torture all insurgents?”

“Would you prefer that they did Phaedrus?”

“Uh, I'm not the one who espoused that opinion.

Next, you'll try the

"neither did I, quit putting words in my mouth"

crap.

well, yes you did:

“Beat all detainees? You specifically said you were glad they were told that. These people hadn't been given any sort of due process, yet you're for going against the American way of due process and skipping straight to the torture?

Why do you hate what America stands for so much, Sarge?”
Phaedrus
10:15:56 AM
4/01/05
ignore this user

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“They're not citizens. They don't have constitutional rights. Did you think they were citizens Phaedrus?”
Sarge
10:18:24 AM
4/01/05
ignore this user

Try to explain that away, weasel-boy.”

“Phaedy, the guy's just yanking chains. Put him on ignore and enjoy the little red plus signs.”

“Two soldiers and an officer with the Army's 82nd Airborne Division have told a human rights organization of systemic detainee abuse and human rights violations at U.S. bases in Afghanistan and Iraq, recounting beatings, forced physical exertion and psychological torture of prisoners, the group said.

A 30-page report by Human Rights Watch describes an Army captain's 17-month effort to gain clear understanding of how U.S. soldiers were supposed to treat detainees, and depicts his frustration with what he saw as widespread abuse that the military's leadership failed to address. The Army officer made clear that he believes low-ranking soldiers have been held responsible for abuse to cover for officers who condoned it.

The report does not identify the two sergeants and a captain who gave the accounts, although Capt. Ian Fishback has presented some of his allegations in a letter to Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.).

Their statements included vivid allegations of violence against detainees held at Forward Operating Base Mercury, outside Fallujah, shortly before the notorious abuse at the Abu Ghraib prison began. The soldiers described incidents similar to those reported in other parts of Iraq -- such as putting detainees in stress positions, exercising them to the point of total exhaustion, and sleep deprivation.

They also detailed regular attacks that left detainees with broken bones -- including once when a detainee was hit with a metal bat -- and said that detainees were sometimes piled into pyramids, a tactic seen in photographs taken later at Abu Ghraib.

"Some days we would just get bored so we would have everyone sit in a corner and then make them get in a pyramid," an unidentified sergeant who worked at the base from August 2003 to April 2004 told Human Rights Watch. "This was before Abu Ghraib but just like it. We did that for amusement."

And like soldiers accused at Abu Ghraib, these troops said that military intelligence interrogators encouraged their actions, telling them to make sure the detainees did not sleep or were physically exhausted so as to get them to talk.

"They were directed to get intel from them so we had to set the conditions by banging on their cages, crashing them into the cages, kicking them, kicking dirt, yelling," the soldier was quoted as saying. Later he described how he and others beat the detainees. "But you gotta understand, this was the norm. Everyone would just sweep it under the rug."

continued...”

“What else in under that rug?”

“We can always count on violink to provide aid and comfort to the enemy.”

“The enemy is on Trail Talk? Damn. That explains all the trolls!”

“I am not for torture or cutting off heads but you have to do what will get results.

When contractors, soldiers, reporters are captured by the terrorist they have a 99.9% idea on what is going to happen to them and it isn't good. But when the terrorist get captured they know what they do to people will not happen to them.

I don't think we should be there but we are. It is war you have to do whatever you can to win. If it means torturing the terrorist by all means do it. If it means shooting them go for it. There are no rules in war. It doesn't do a lot of good for you to go by the Geneva Convention when your enemy doesn't. That and other stupid rules cost the US a lot of lives in other wars.”

“If you are a US citizen and you think that,first ,consider what might happen when those troops in the hurricane areas are ordered to correct the actions of homeless citizens.”

“uncliff, are we at war in the hurricane areas?”

“Yes,in these polarized times,all is war.”

“Oh brother!”

“On TT a backpack ? turns into an abortion battle,left-right,left.......... never a suggestion that a solution exist somewhere between the extremes.”

“The Left never offers suggestions for solutions. Their policy is to exaggerate and complain.”

“But,the right would never?”

““The Left never offers suggestions for solutions. Their policy is to exaggerate and complain.”
bacpac
2:11:26 PM
9/25/05

That's an awfully silly mantra that the right has adopted. Half the time they claim the left has an extreme radical agenda. Then they claim the left offers no suggestions or solutions. Definitely weird, but not very coherent.”

“Their "extreme radical agenda" is to exaggerate and complain which "offers no suggestions or solutions".

comprende?”

“Good Point Pedxing. You guys do support nut jobs like Cindy Sheehan. Her ideas have been great.”

“As a loyal Democrat, I believe it would be disloyal to come up with a different plan than the president, at least right now.

I believe that we need to support the president in his Iraq plan and let it play out.

Bacpac is just encouraging dissent. He wants Democrats to come up with a different plan. Maybe he doesn't like the current one?

But that would be disloyal. We should support the troops.”

“Cindy Sheehan just stood outside of Hilary Clinton's office and threatened to help get her drummed out of office.

Yup. She's a rock-solid Democrat. But I guess if Bill Frist can make money off abortions and still be a Republican, anything is possible.”

“Mountain: What ever happened to the Big government agenda the left suppoedly had? All those horrible left wing programs Bush has worked to undo?”

“This "the left (or the Democrats, or the Liberals or whatever) just complains and offers no solutions" is a canard the far right trots out everytime they screw up to bash anyone who points it out.”

“pedxing, what programs has Bush undone?!

Bush is a big spender, as bad as the Democrats. He's made programs bigger, not smaller. What are you talking about?

pedxing, the "mantra" or "canard" as is not just something to say. The left, Democrats, liberals truly are lacking in solutions. If you think they're full of solutions you're not watching the same talk shows I am where they're straight out asked "ok, we hear your complaints, now what's your solution" and they literally resond with more complaints. This is not an isolated response. I've even heard them disguise complaints as solutions by prefacing with charges like "we have a better solution" and follow up with just more complaining. It's old and tiresome. It's time to kick both parties out and elect somebody new. Somebody from the Libertarian party. We have solutions that work.”