ChiCom Issues

“I searched, and there wasn't a past thread discussing Chinese geopolitcs, so I created this one.



New Chinese Jets Superior, Eagle Loses to Flanker

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/5/26/154053.shtml

Charles R. Smith

Wednesday, May 26, 2004

China is about to receive 24 advanced Sukhoi Su-30MK2 Flanker fighters from Russia. The new fighter jets are reported to be the naval versions of the Sukhoi Su-30MKK fighter.
The new Chinese fighters are reportedly equipped with enhanced anti-ship strike capabilities including the Kh-31 Krypton supersonic anti-ship missile.

China has already purchased 78 Su-27SK/UBK fighters and 76 Su-30MKK fighters from Russia, and is building 200 more Flanker jets under license from Sukhoi. The PLA Naval Air Corps will deploy the latest batch of Su-30MK2 fighters.

The disturbing news from Beijing adds to recent bad news for the U.S. Air Force. According to an unreleased U.S.A.F. report, the F-15 Eagle - the most advanced U.S. fighter in service - is inferior to the latest versions of the Sukhoi Su-30 Flanker.

The report covers a series of air-combat training engagements earlier this year between Indian air force Su-30MKs and F-15Cs from Elmendorf AFB, Alaska. The U.S. F-15s were equipped with the U.S. latest long-range, high-definition radar systems.

During the air combat exercises the Su-30MKs and F-15 pilots were seeing each other at the same time with their radars, but the Indian pilots were getting off the simulated first shot with their AA-10 Alamo missiles and often winning the long-range engagements.

Flanker Beats Eagle

According to a Richard Fisher, a defense analyst and noted expert on the Chinese military, the Chinese Flanker fighters can beat the U.S. top jet fighters including the F-15 Eagle.

"Since 1992 the Pentagon has known that in a close-in dogfight the Su-27 would smear the F-15. That year Russian Sukhois came to Langley AFB and showed us their stuff. What we appear to be learning from the recent exercise with India is that Russian radar, weapons and more importantly, tactics, have all reached a level in which the F-15 is on the verge of being outclassed in the long-range engagement as well," stated Fisher.

According to a recent report by Fisher for the U.S.-China Economic and Security Review Commission, the Chinese Flanker fighters are a real threat to Taiwan and the U.S. Fisher's report raised early alarm bells about the Chinese purchase of large number of the more advanced Flanker - the Su-30 multi-role strike fighter.

"With the purchase of the Sukhoi Su-30MKK (Mnogafunctunali Kommercial Kitayski-Multifunctional Commercial for China) the PLAAF demonstrated that it had made a clear doctrinal commitment to acquiring multi-role attack fighters capable of "joint" warfighting. The Su-30MKK is the first PLAAF attack fighter capable of delivering precision-guided munitions in all weather conditions, and to use modern air-to-air weapons like the self-guiding Vympel R-77 (AA-12 ADDER) AAM," noted Fisher's report.

"This upgrade program has the potential to rapidly increase the number of multi-role fighters in the PLAAF, conceivably adding up to 78 Su-27SK/UBKs and 200+ J-11s to the 100+ Su-30MKK/MKK2 multi role fighters. The prospect of the later was formidable enough. But the near-term prospect of nearly 400 Sukhoi fighters with ability to launch active-guided R-77s and anti-ship missiles like the Kh-31A on a single mission creates great pressure for a U.S. defensive response. Such a force poses a serious challenge to Taiwan's ability to maintain control over its own airspace as well as complicating U.S. Air Force and U.S. Navy plans to come to Taiwan's defense if needed," states Fisher's report.

New Chinese Missile Superior to U.S.

Worse still is the fact that China is now developing an air-to-air missile considered to be superior to the U.S. AIM-120 AMRAAM missile. The self-guided AMRAAM is the main long-range armament for all U.S. fighter jets.

The new Chinese Project 129 or PL-12 missile is a Sino-Russian collaboration drawn from the Russian AA-12 Adder and equipped with an indigenous Chinese high-power rocket motor. Unlike the Russian AA-12, the PL-12 will have better performance than early models of the U.S. AMRAAM missile. The PL-12 reportedly has a maximum head-on engagement range of 50 miles and a maximum speed of four times the speed of sound.

The PL-12 is now in the final stages of development, with test firings against target drones scheduled for this year. Pakistan is seen as the first export customer for the PL-12. The PL-12 has alarmed U.S. defense sources who now consider it as the primary radar-guided air-to-air missile threat against American and allied aircraft.

The new PL-12 missile, once married to the advanced Su-30 Flanker jets in the PLAAF, can dominate the skies over Taiwan and eventually Asia. The U.S. F-15 Eagle, first flown in the mid-1970s, is rapidly becoming vulnerable to these fifth generation weapons.

F-22 Politics

The U.S. Air Force answer to the new threat is the F-22 Raptor. The new stealth jet fighter is capable of dealing with both the Su-30 and the PL-12 missile because of its superior speed, agility, and its ability to hide from conventional radars such as those on the Su-30. The U.S.A.F. wants to buy up to 400 of the advanced stealth fighters over the next decade.

"China's Sukhois are somewhat different from those sold to India in that they lack the latter's new BARS phased array radar and thrust vectored engines. But that's only slight cause for comfort, as China is in the midst of upgrading its Sukhoi fleet to enable carriage of the R-77 BVR AAM and attack munitions. Most co-produced Su-27SK/J-11 fighters are so upgraded. This means that very soon the U.S. air forces in Asia could be facing 200-300 multi-role BVR AAM capable Sukhois in the PLA Air Force," stated Rick Fisher.

"This trend was apparent several years ago and the tragedy is that the Pentagon did not start sounding the alarm back then. As a consequence an important chance to bolster political support for the F/A-22 has been lost. Today there is still an unjustified reluctance to publicly link China's growing Sukhoi fleet to a now urgent need to produce the F/A- 22," noted Fisher.

The F-22 Raptor has become a political issue with the current Democrat candidate opposing the stealth fighter. Democrat presidential candidate John Kerry voted against funding the F-22 at least five times, in 1995 and 1996.

Additionally, in 1995 Kerry supported a deep cut in the F-22 Raptor by signing onto S. 151 "to reduce Federal spending by restructuring the Air Force's F-22 program to achieve initial operating capability in 2010 and a total inventory of no more than 42 aircraft in 2015."

In June 1998, John Kerry voted for the Bumpers amendment to the U.S. defense funding for 1999 to drastically cut the F-22 program. In 1998 Senator Bumpers (D. Ark.) repeatedly voiced his opposition to the F-22 and offered legislation to cut the aircraft permanently.

"We are buying all these fighters in spite of the fact that the intelligence community and everybody who knows anything about an airplane knows that there isn't a plane in the world - in France, in Russia, in China - that is even remotely comparable to our F-15 and our F-18 and there won't be, the CIA says, for 15 to 20 years. So what is the rush to judgment?" stated Bumpers in 1998.

The vote by Bumpers and Kerry failed, and the funding continued for the F-22. The words of Senator Bumpers convinced others like Senator Kerry and Senator Kennedy to consider the threat to our pilots and our national defense would not develop for 20 years.

Six years later the threat is already flying.

Deterrence or War

"The vicious circle of development delays, cost overruns, politically inspired number reductions and then reduced requirements are symptomatic of a crisis of leadership that will make war on the Taiwan Strait more possible, as America has lost a chance to put needed deterrent forces in place," stated Richard Fisher.

"The U.S. needed the F/A-22 in the Pacific theater five years ago, so that by today it would be reasonably integrated into our total forces. America will need far more than the 277 F/A-22s our leaders our currently willing to buy, and they are long overdue in the force. They are indeed expensive, but their cost is puny compared to the price America will pay if it either has to fight a war on the Taiwan Strait, or should it even lose that war," concluded Fisher.”

“Kerry’s not weak on defense Mutt. He was born on a phucking air base in Colorado. How CAN he be weak on defense? LOL!”

“LOL. Kerry's an elitist, waffling, self aggrandizing, opportunist piece of used toilet paper. He doesn't care about the nation or national security nearly as much as he cares about his own success.

Unfortunately, Bush isn't much, if any, better.”

“Yeah, it's the lesser of two liberals evils.”

“"Unfortunately, Bush isn't much, if any, better."

True but at least Bush has no trouble with his identity. He is a professional politician from a rich family. He doesn’t roll his sleeves up for town hall meetings so he looks like he’s been doing physical labor and he doesn’t try to pass himself off as a Regular Joe (I was humbly born on an air base in Colorado and my mommy and daddy had a strong sense of service). But then again a campaign spot that said, “I was born to a rich family and spent holidays with the Kennedy’s.” wouldn’t make Kerry look like a friendly uncle figure.

But then again, I don’t need my president to personally care about or for me. I want a pro not a Joe. I want a president to do what he feels is the best thing for the COUNTRY, not me personally. And this includes strong defense and keeping up with other countries military might.”

“Why care if China attacks Taiwan? Does anyone remember that the former govt. of China was not a very "nice" govt? I say China should just get it over with and we should look the other way, or support China.

Imagine a US-Chinese alliance!”

“Asian chicks are smokin' hot!”

“Well, Nigal, those are good points. But, no matter how much I would prefer Bush's foreign policy over Kerry's proposed nightmare, Bush is still a christofascist scumbag bent on making the U.S. a theocracy. I know that doesn't bother you nearly as much as it bothers me, but I can't let it go. I can't vote for either candidate, and I'm certainly not voting for Nader. I'm screwed!”

“You can always right in Sharpton or Keys. LOL! I could just see Sharpton's defense policy, "Take off your shoe and hit the bltch with it!".”

“Why care if China attacks Taiwan? Does anyone remember that the former govt. of China was not a very "nice" govt? I say China should just get it over with and we should look the other way, or support China.

Why would China attack itself? I mean, as we all know, Taipai is the legitimate government of China. Beijing is just a collection of communist despots.

Seriously, your idea is very Un-American!”

““I know that doesn't bother you nearly as much as it bothers me, but I can't let it go.”

Oops! Forgot this part. It doesn’t really bug me too much because I know it’ll never happen. But I do agree with total separation of church and state. The more ya keep religion out of the state the more ya keep the state out of the church. This does not mean that it should be an atheistic state or that freedom OF religion should not be allowed.

If Ashcroft wants to dress his statue and sing “Let the Eagle Soar” and look stupid, who are we to say? LOL!”

“I think we should totaly support Cuba, also. I must be a Pinko!

On another note:

But then again, I don’t need my president to personally care about or for me. I want a pro not a Joe. I want a president to do what he feels is the best thing for the COUNTRY, not me personally. And this includes strong defense and keeping up with other countries military might."
Nigal
10:08:37 AM
05/28/04

Top 15 Countries with Highest Military Expenditures
Rank County Millions of Dollars
1. United States 277,800
2. Russia 76,000
3. China–Mainland 63,510
4. Japan 50,240
5. France 47,770
6. Germany 41,160
7. United Kingdom 33,400
8. Italy 19,380
9. Saudi Arabia 17,210
10. Korea, South 14,410
11. China–Taiwan 13,140
12 Brazil 10,900
13 Canada 9,077
14 Israel 8,734
15 Spain 8,652

How are we not "keeping up". We must suck at weapon design.”

““How are we not "keeping up". We must suck at weapon design."

It would seem as though you are attributing the total sum to R&D. We have the greatest, best outfitted military on the face of the planet. If you look at the next two countries on the list you’ll see they are not as advanced all the way around. They depend a great deal on missiles and planes and the like but as far as the troops go they are closer to WWII gear and tactics than they are to present day. Our R&D goes into totally new weapons and stuff than just building a better airplane.

We might be able to afford more good weapons if we didn’t have programs like yours sucking funds off the military. LOL! I keed! I keed!”

“Asian chicks in uniform are extra smokin' hot!”

“Are we in a cold war with China?

I'm skeered!

I better hit the trails this weekend, my city might get hit by a Chinese missle and an Al Qaida dirty bomb at the same time!

BTW - I fear a terrorist attack way more than a Chinese missle. Call me crazy!”

“No our development costs are much higher. If you remember Russia and China are both nations are are losing work too because their labor force is highly educated and works for much less money.”

“Grrr...
...nations WE are losing work to...”

“that's it, I'm callin' union steward!”

“You think we spend less money on R&D then other countries? I highly doubt that and would like to see some stats. Russia depends on Missles? Isn't the Russias missle program crumbling along with former republics?

As for "my program" sucking funds of weapons R&D - our research has stopped. But not for R&D - it's for increased spending in Iraq. ;)”

“So far the only statements on this thread that really interest me have been BB's.”

“France - 47,700


hahahaha! ROFLMAO!

Why?”

“So far the only statements on this thread that really interest me have been BB's.

What, the superiority of the chinese fighter doesn't interest you?!?!? Traitor!”

“"You think we spend less money on R&D then other countries? I highly doubt that and would like to see some stats."

I never said this. Of course we spend more than anyone else. I was pointing out that ours goes in many different areas. Even though our forces are far underpaid I doubt most other nations have nearly the cost of pay that we do.”

“Asian chicks? Yes. That's why I fully support an Alliance, maybe an exchange of research staff to show how friendly we can really be.............”

“I'd volunteer to send my staff over there!”

“Well Mutt, it does concern me. But I got distracted by BB's comments. The article makes a good case for increasing funding for the F22, but I'm willing to bet you could make good arguments for just about every aspect of our military. I personally would like to see more interest in the F22 since it seems to be a good platform, but I'd also like to see more funding for pay, benefits, housing, etc. Getting back to the Chicoms, I believe that even with the superior fighters, they are still at a huge disadvantage when it comes to matters of the navy. Remember the stink they raised when they thought we would be supplying Taiwan with Aegis destroyers?”

“Short story- Chicom Air Force advancing fairly rapidly, Navy still in trouble.”

“Interesting point Nigal. So there must be a way to compensate for that, no?

BB - I would volunteer to go or I might volunteer to house several chinese femmes. I only have a studio but I'm sure living quarters in china aren't much roomier.”

“The question we should all be asking is this: How much quicker can those new jets fly those asian honies over here to the U.S.?”

“The problem of the F22 is the cost per unit. Also gotto question whether the SU 30 is better, or simply better on paper, it's potentially more agile, but most air combat is no longer dogfights. True the missile development is worrying, but how long before these actually go into service. And you also have to wonder if war with china would ever be feasible. Too many of em, plus they have nukes. Are you spending a fortune on the F22 to fight nations with no real air power. Would the money be better spent on better special forces to combat terrorism?”

“LMAO! And I bet my missle is way bigger than any chinese missle!”

“And I am coming round to the concept of asian chicks too.”

“Agility is not only used in dogfights it plays a major role in missle avoidance. If a fighter can turn tighter than the missle then survivabilty increases.”

“Why not buy some jets from Russia? Or trade for some jets? Doh!

Why can't we think outside the cold war box!”

“Calling Lorena Bobbit

BB wants to send his staff to Asia and we are in a budget crisis”

“I heard tell them asian chicks got hoohoo-dillies that go east to west rather than north to south and they go "BRRRRRRR!" when they goes down the slide.

China having these faster jets really doesn't bother me. Everyone knows Asians can't drive fer chit!”