Go See Fahreheit 911

“Buck -

I think we've got pretty close to understanding each other.

I have just one more clarification: I wasn't arguing that the election was stolen - (there is an interesting debate to be had there, but I think the truth is much more complex than either side says). I was only arguing about what the newspaper consortium found - the media tried to play the findings in a way that backed Bush as much as possible. This was understandable given that the findings came out so soon after the 9/11 attaks and not a time to be fanning flames of doubt.”

“The argument about blue vs red states is devisive. How many states that were painted with one color were very closely contested? Quite a few. So, to say that because a state cast its electoral votes one way or another, thus making it a solid voice for either GW or Gore is not keeping the total picture in mind.
I have even been sent forwards about the number of square miles that went to GW as opposed to Gore, thus giving GW a supposed mandate. Give me a break.
Let's try another tactic, shall we?”

“i don't consider myself a hard line conservative, if that is what you mean, but i went and saw the movie.”

“Dummerthan, I don't watch a lot of movies, but I bought a DVD of 'Cold Mountain' today. I watched about an hour of it. I hope it gets better towards the end.”

“Even before Michael Moore's Fahrenheit 9/11 opened in theaters last Friday, the White House and its right-wing allies sought to smear both the film and Moore personally. Last month, White House communications director Dan Bartlett said the movie "was so outrageously false it's not even worth comment," even though he had not yet seen the film. Meanwhile, the Hollywood Reporter discovered that "big-time conservative donors" are funding a slew of anti-Moore activities. Following the White House's tactic of attacking critics' patriotism, the right-wing is also apparently bankrolling a movie called Michael Moore Hates America. But despite conservatives' best efforts to discredit the film, the New York Times notes, "central assertions of fact in Fahrenheit 9/11 are supported by the public record." When the movie was aired at the Cannes Film Festival, it won top prize from a panel made up of mostly American and British judges.

Accurate: New Report Says
Saudi Flights Occurred on 9/13
Critics have accused Moore of wrongly claiming a group of Saudis were allowed to fly out of the United States on September 13, when much of American airspace was still closed. In fact, the movie accurately reports that 142 Saudis, including 24 members of the bin Laden family, were allowed to leave after September 13 - a fact well documented by the 9/11 Commission. Additionally, new reports prove that Saudi flights did occur on 9/13, despite three years of Bush administration denials. As the St. Petersburg Times reports, on September 13, "with most of the nation's air traffic still grounded, a small jet landed at Tampa International Airport, picked up three young Saudi men and left" for Lexington, KY. The Saudis "then took another flight out of the country." Because the information is so new, it was not in the 9/11 Commission's preliminary report. Subsequently, however, the commission has asked the Tampa airport "for any information about 'a chartered flight with six people, including a Saudi prince, that flew from Tampa, Florida on or about Sept. 13, 2001.' "

Accurate: Bush was not Focused on Terrorism
In the movie, Moore charges that President Bush did not pay enough attention to pre-9/11 warnings that al Qaeda was about to attack. Instead of focusing on terrorism, charges the movie, the president spent 42 percent of his first eight months in office on vacation. That figure "came not from a conspiracy-hungry Web site but from a calculation by The Washington Post."
Read American Progress's report "Truth & Consequences: The Bush Administration and 9/11" for a comprehensive history of how the White House underfunded counter-terrorism and downgraded terrorism as a priority before 9/11. See American Progress's new "Complete Saudi Primer" - a guide to everything you always wanted to know about the Bush-Saudi connection but were afraid to ask.


Disney's Effort to Censor Michael Moore
At the direction of CEO Michael Eisner (who is a Bush campaign contributor), the Walt Disney Company prohibited its Miramax division from distributing Fahrenheit 9/11. The company enjoys a cozy relationship with President Bush's brother, Jeb.
As governor of Florida, Jeb Bush serves as a trustee for the state employees' pension fund. That fund owns approximately 7.3 million shares of Disney stock.
Eisner told reporters he was refusing to distribute the film because Disney is "such a nonpartisan company, do not look for us to take sides."

Right-Wing Efforts to Censor Michael Moore
The campaign to silence Moore was taken up by the right-wing group with the ironic name Move America Forward. The group is headed by right-winger Howard Kaloogian, who also spearheaded the partisan campaign to quash a miniseries about Ronald Reagan and led the partisan fight to recall California Gov. Gray Davis. Kaloogian also "credits himself with helping elect President Bush because he was No. 4 of 25 elected officials who signed a letter asking him to run in January 1999." The group, without having seen the film, "launched a preemptive attack against" the movie "by requesting movie theaters across the country not to show the film."

David Bossie's Hypocrisy
The conservative front group "Citizens United," which is headed by Clinton attacker David Bossie, is trying to get the Federal Election Commission (FEC) to intervene and censor advertising for Fahrenheit 9/11. Just two years ago, however, it was Bossie who led the charge against FEC interventions. On 6/12/02, The Hill newspaper reported him saying his group feels "FEC rules and regulations are abhorrent...they restrict the American people's ability to have an influence in politics."

Rated R For Reality
The Motion Picture Association of America saddled the movie with an R rating.
Tom Ortenberg, president of the company releasing the film, "argued that 15- and 16-year-olds, who might end up fighting in the war on terrorism," should be able to see the film, which shows the true cost of war - gravely wounded Iraqi citizens and U.S. troops. Much of that cost has been hidden by the Bush administration, which has banned photos of flag-draped coffins coming home (even though the Bush campaign uses flag draped corpses at Ground Zero in its political commercials). President Bush has also refused to attend funerals of the fallen in Iraq. Moore argues that the movie needs to be seen by the widest possible audience to give the public a glimpse of the reality of war. All told, between the start of war on March 19, 2003 and June 16, 2004, 952 coalition forces were killed, including 836 U.S. military. For more on the hidden cost of war, go online and read this summary (www.ips-dc.org/iraq/costsofwar/) by the Institute for Policy Studies.


http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=12158522&BRD=1395&PAG=461&dept_id=216620&rfi=6”

“Ped, you seem to ignore the fact that here was a statewide recount in Florida.

Miss Anne Thrope
12:54:04 PM


FYI: The statewide recount you refer to - did not involve a re-examination of the ballots statewide - many counties just retabulated their vote totals.”

“What about reports of ballot tampering with those ballots you want counted?”

“To what reports do you refer?
What ballots did I ever say I wanted counted?”

“It is impolite to answer a question with a question, bacpac.”

“
A question ain't really a question
If you know the answer too

-JP”

“I am refering to my previous link.”

“I got this on email. Most of it was true. I edited out the stuff that wasn't. I did the checking on snopes.com. The stuff that was omitted had to do with murder rates in counties won by Bush and Gore.

This seems to summarize the effect that high denisty population has on voting outcome....almost.

Population of counties won by:
Gore = 127 million
Bush = 143 million

Square miles of land won by:
Gore = 580,000
Bush = 2,2427,000

States won by:
Gore = 20
Bush = 30”

“The miles² thing is a no-brainer when you consider Alaska, Texas and some o' those Big Square States Out West, <G>

I think the only numbers that truly reflect the political divide are the raw totals. The rest is fluff... and some of that fluff is pretty contorted, LOL”

“Oh, BTW -- as predicted, following last week's turnout, avarice has triumphed and Fahrenheit 9/11 has come to Augusta.... It's at that Art Deco movie theatre out on Wheeler Road, <grin>”

“Had Gore won, would he have been the first to win the election and lose his home state?”

“OK. Since Gore was a Democrat, and Democrats are proponents of protecting public lands; And, since GW is actively attacking public lands and proposing they be used by private companies at the public expense; Therefore, in the election of 2000, Gore won all of the sqare miles covered by public lands, thus winning the presidency.
Logical, ain't it?”

“Nigal, bacpac, have you gotten up the courage to see the movie yet?”

“When my courage is measured by the movies I watch I want to be the biggest coward.”

“You don't need to worry, you're already the biggest coward on this board....”

“Thanks lapiss, I consider your opinion valid.”

“Still calling me your jewel, I see. When are you ever going to get educated?”

“There was a film clip, in the movie, of Dubya speaking before becoming governor of Texas.

There was NO hillbilly accent.

Sooooo, the hillbilly accent is contrived, huh?

Could this be to appeal to guys with confederate flags on their pickup trucks?

The very constituency that Howard Dean was talking about.”

“Well, I just got back from the movie.... and I thought I was pissed before.... LOL

If you haven't seen it -- you need to.


Keep On Rockin' In The Free World!”

“I thought it was pretty dern good. The part with Lila was moving.

I really don’t see what the right is so upset about. If I had been consulted on the movie, it would have been a lot more devastating. Moore could have brought in more and stated his case more firmly - not rely so much on innuendo but I guess he wanted to distill it to the simplest case.

Really, everyone should at least see this movie and make up your own mind.”

“Are there nekkid chicks in the movie? I'm still waiting for the lines to die down.”

“I simply question Moore’s integrity. He appears to have no trouble bending, editing or totally abandoning the truth at times. Here’s an example of Bowling for Columbine:


THE LIES:
LIE: The Lockheed-Martin facility depicted in the film is presented as a manufacturer of weapons of mass destruction. (TRUTH: the facility produces rockets for launching satellites)

LIE: The NRA is callous to gun slayings. (TRUTH: the evidence distorted to reach this infactual end is expansive. The sequence in Bowling in which Charlton Heston gives a defiant pro-gun speech in Denver is edited to unbelievable distortion. The fiery "cold dead hands" statement was not even made in Denver, but a YEAR after the Denver (annual NRA members' meeting) in Charlotte, North Carolina. Compare Bowling's version of the Heston speech in Denver to REALITY

LIE: The impression is given in Bowling that the NRA and the KKK were (are?) parallel groups - or more likely, that when the Klan was outlawed, the NRA filled its shoes. (TRUTH: Charlton Heston is NOT a racist, as alleged in Bowling. Heston involved himself in the civil rights movement in the early 60's while the issue was still too hot for Hollywooders concerned about their careers. He also helped Martin Luther King break the Hollywood color barrier that existed at that time. After its founding in New York by two Union Officers, the NRA itself has a long and comprehensive history of aligning itself in diametrical opposition to racism and the KKK.)

LIE: Moore sympathizes with the "little boy" at Buell Elementary in Michigan who just found a gun in his uncle's house and took it to school to kill a girl. Moore says "No one knew why the little boy wanted to shoot the little girl". (TRUTH: The "little boy" was the class bully and was already suspended for stabbing another child with a pencil. Since that incident, the "little boy" also stabbed another kid with a knife. Also- the "uncle's house" was a neighborhood crack house. The uncle and the "little boy's" father were, at the time, serving time for theft and cocaine possession. His aunt earned her living from drug dealing. The gun was stolen by one of the uncle's customers and purchased by him in exchange for drugs.

LIE: Bowling makes note of $245 million that the U.S. gave to the Taliban government of Afghanistan in 2000 and 2001 and then proceeds to illustrate the alleged "result" by showing planes hitting the twin towers. (TRUTH: The $245 million in aid was given through the U.N. and non-governmental organizations to relieve the famine that existed in Afghanistan at that time.

LIE: Bowling showcases a dramatic comparison of gun homicide stats from various countries. (TRUTH: The numbers don't add up - click here)

LIE: In Bowling, Moore enters a WalMart in Ontario, Canada to purchase, with ease and without being identified, several boxes of ammunition. (TRUTH: Canadian officials have indicated that the purchase, as depicted in the movie, is either fake or illegal)

LIE: Moore shows footage of a B-52 on display at the Air Force Academy, and sadly announces that the plaque under it "proudly proclaims that the plane killed Vietnamese people on Christmas Eve of 1972." Interestingly enough, Moore's camera only lets you see the plaque from a distance sufficient enough to render the plaque impossible to read. (TRUTH: The inscription on the plaque is: "Dedicated to the men and women of the Strategic Air Command who flew and maintained the B-52D throughout its 26 year history in the command. Aircraft 55,003, with over 15,000 flying hours, is one of two B-52's credited with a confirmed MIG kill during the Vietnam conflict. Flying out of Utapao Royal Thai Naval Airfield in southeast Thailand, the crew of "Diamond Lil" shot down a MIG northeast of Hanoi during "Linebacker II" action on Christmas eve 1972.")


http://www.preventtruthdecay.com/mainmiscmoore.htm”

“Moore is the left's Limbaugh. If anyone seriously derives their political perspective from him, they have no business debating politics on the Internet.

Tilt is proof enough of that.”

“Prevent Truth Decay:

"Exposing liberals to the undeniable tidal waves of reality..."


Well dang, anything they say must be without bias.”

“It's kind of like getting your daily news from the Daily Show with Jon Stewart.”

“"Prevent Truth Decay:

"Exposing liberals to the undeniable tidal waves of reality..."


Well dang, anything they say must be without bias."

I never said it was unbiased. Does this tagline change the facts somehow?”

“Facts or spin?”

“Did you go to the site and check the links?”

“prevent truth decay : a liberal helping of fair and dependable political opinion, satire, news, and issues - conservatively balanced, of course.

Links? Like:


http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html

or www.moorexposed.com

Sound like spin sites. Besides, if the original web site looks like a spin site than why go further?”

“nigal. i'm not a huge fan of moore, i think he does spin as much as anyone in hollywood but many of the points that you posted are refuted here:

http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/wackoattacko/


i'm not gonna copy/paste the whole thing cause it's pretty long, but you should take the time to read his own defense.”

“Whether it's on the net or the airwaves the so-called Right always has the cash to counterattack. And that's what they do. There will always be SOMEONE to call them on their crap, and they will forever be putting out brushfires and spreading dezinformatsia.”

“OK then bear, take each issue one by one then…

LIE: The Lockheed-Martin facility depicted in the film is presented as a manufacturer of weapons of mass destruction. (TRUTH: the facility produces rockets for launching satellites)

**So this facility really is used for WMDs and not satellite rockets? Spin or fact?

LIE: The NRA is callous to gun slayings. (TRUTH: the evidence distorted to reach this infactual end is expansive. The sequence in Bowling in which Charlton Heston gives a defiant pro-gun speech in Denver is edited to unbelievable distortion. The fiery "cold dead hands" statement was not even made in Denver, but a YEAR after the Denver (annual NRA members' meeting) in Charlotte, North Carolina. Compare Bowling's version of the Heston speech in Denver to REALITY

**So there really was no creative editing or deception used here? Spin or fact?

LIE: The impression is given in Bowling that the NRA and the KKK were (are?) parallel groups - or more likely, that when the Klan was outlawed, the NRA filled its shoes. (TRUTH: Charlton Heston is NOT a racist, as alleged in Bowling. Heston involved himself in the civil rights movement in the early 60's while the issue was still too hot for Hollywooders concerned about their careers. He also helped Martin Luther King break the Hollywood color barrier that existed at that time. After its founding in New York by two Union Officers, the NRA itself has a long and comprehensive history of aligning itself in diametrical opposition to racism and the KKK.)

**So the NRA really IS a replacement for the KKK? Spin of fact?

LIE: Moore sympathizes with the "little boy" at Buell Elementary in Michigan who just found a gun in his uncle's house and took it to school to kill a girl. Moore says "No one knew why the little boy wanted to shoot the little girl". (TRUTH: The "little boy" was the class bully and was already suspended for stabbing another child with a pencil. Since that incident, the "little boy" also stabbed another kid with a knife. Also- the "uncle's house" was a neighborhood crack house. The uncle and the "little boy's" father were, at the time, serving time for theft and cocaine possession. His aunt earned her living from drug dealing. The gun was stolen by one of the uncle's customers and purchased by him in exchange for drugs.

**So this child wasn’t disturbed and was driven by the simple presence of the gun? Spin or facts?

LIE: Bowling makes note of $245 million that the U.S. gave to the Taliban government of Afghanistan in 2000 and 2001 and then proceeds to illustrate the alleged "result" by showing planes hitting the twin towers. (TRUTH: The $245 million in aid was given through the U.N. and non-governmental organizations to relieve the famine that existed in Afghanistan at that time.

**Spin or fact?

LIE: Bowling showcases a dramatic comparison of gun homicide stats from various countries. (TRUTH: The numbers don't add up - click here)

**Did ya check the link?

LIE: In Bowling, Moore enters a WalMart in Ontario, Canada to purchase, with ease and without being identified, several boxes of ammunition. (TRUTH: Canadian officials have indicated that the purchase, as depicted in the movie, is either fake or illegal)

Do the Canadian officials lie?

LIE: Moore shows footage of a B-52 on display at the Air Force Academy, and sadly announces that the plaque under it "proudly proclaims that the plane killed Vietnamese people on Christmas Eve of 1972." Interestingly enough, Moore's camera only lets you see the plaque from a distance sufficient enough to render the plaque impossible to read. (TRUTH: The inscription on the plaque is: "Dedicated to the men and women of the Strategic Air Command who flew and maintained the B-52D throughout its 26 year history in the command. Aircraft 55,003, with over 15,000 flying hours, is one of two B-52's credited with a confirmed MIG kill during the Vietnam conflict. Flying out of Utapao Royal Thai Naval Airfield in southeast Thailand, the crew of "Diamond Lil" shot down a MIG northeast of Hanoi during "Linebacker II" action on Christmas eve 1972.")

**And this isn’t spinning or even down right deception?

I don’t mind putting up the “look at the source” straw man when it’s an opinion piece based on simple point of view but when facts are given it’s not so easy.”

“alot of this ends up just being a case of he said/she said - who ya gonna believe -

but whether you're a fan of him or not, he does make 1 very good argument against most of the points you pasted:


an exerpt:


Well, guess what. Total number of lawsuits to date against me or my film by the NRA? NONE. That's right, zero. And don't forget for a second that if they could have shut this film down on a technicality they would have. But they didn't and they can't – because the film is factually solid and above reproach. In fact, we have not been sued by any individual or group over the statements made in "Bowling for Columbine?" Why is that? Because everything we say is true – and the things that are our opinion, we say so and leave it up to the viewer to decide if our point of view is correct or not for each of them. ”

“I saw "Fahrenheit" the other night. I live in an overwhelmingly Republican area. The place was packed, and when it was over people got up and clapped.

Overall, it is entertaining and well-done from a cinematic view. Some of Moore's implicit conclusions are a bit of a stretch. It is obviously biased, as Moore has acknowledged himself.

Several parts of the film was very powerful, especially the mom from Michigan, and hearing, but not seeing, the planes hit the WTC. Watching buildings explode in Baghdad was unnerving.

Considering how obsessed the Bush administration is with image, this documentary is breath of fresh air. The ending was hilarious.”

“"LIE: The Lockheed-Martin facility depicted in the film is presented as a manufacturer of weapons of mass destruction. (TRUTH: the facility produces rockets for launching satellites)

**So this facility really is used for WMDs and not satellite rockets? Spin or fact?"

I don't know everything they produce. How do you?”

“It's some of that 'Duel-use Technology' Rumsfeld has been warning us about....”

“"I don't know everything they produce. How do you?"

From Moore’s own site:

“As for what's currently manufactured in Littleton, McCollum told me, "They (the rockets sitting behind him) carry mainly very large national security satellites, some we can't talk about." (see him say it here)

Since that interview, the Titan IV rockets manufactured in Littleton have been critical to the war effort in both Afghanistan and Iraq. These rockets launched advanced satellites that were "instrumental in providing command-and-control operations over Iraq...for the rapid targeting of Navy Tomahawk cruise missiles involved in Iraqi strikes and clandestine communications with Special Operations Forces."

So command and control satellites are WMDs?”

“"Duel Use" ? ?

Sir, prepare to defend yourself!”

“Thanks for the link sacco. It does present the other side from the source and does give a clearer picture even though some of his defenses are dubious at best. I will read on though.”

“Way to go, Nigal!

You found a "lie"....


Or was it just misleading?”

“What I'm trying to convey here in my own piss poor way, is I'm skeptical of the info being fead to me from sites with obvious biases.

Is that wrong?”

“i agree nigal, that some of his defenses are dubious - but so are many of the accusations against his work.

the fact that there were/are no lawsuits filed against him makes me lean towards his side of the story.

i mean c'mon - do actually think for a second that if lockheed martin or the NRA could discredit him with a lawsuit they wouldn't do it ?”

“ooops! LOL! Interesting slip...

Ya Know -- If this really was just personal #&%!$ between Hussein and Junior....

(("Ya Gotta remember, this is the guy who tried to kill my dad."))....


Shouldn't Junior have simply called him out like the Big Bad Texan he's always wanted to be and leave the rest of us the Hell out of it??

How's about "Flamethrowers at Fifty Paces" LOL”

“"Way to go, Nigal!

You found a "lie"....


Or was it just misleading?"

Well, I’d have to say that if we are to go by the left’s standards and their examples of pinning a lie on Bush for misinformation; I’d have to say Moore is a dirty, low down, Hitler-like liar who deserves to be strung up by his balls. LOL!”

“Does Al Franken Lie?”

“not quite nigal - moore's film hasn't killed thousands. and sent another over 100,000 of our friends and relatives overseas.

moore's film also didn't cost tax payers 100+ billion dollars - much of which went right into bush's buddies pockets for "redeveloping" iraq.


if bush is like hitler, than moore is like michael jackson - pretty much harmless unless you've got the sense of a 5 year old.”