Ethics: Lying

“"Yea, teach your kids that lying is OK."

Stove Stomper makes the point on another thread that the truth is always the best policy. I am sure we can all quote scripture, and tell really great devotional parables of why we always tell the truth, and how the truth will set us free, and the truth will eventual find you out.. but I wonder how many of us always tell the truth.

Always.

"Does that dress make you look fat? No honey, it's the two times through the buffet line for the last three years that have made you look fat."

Always.

"What did I do last night? Oh, nothing much, drove around a little, and watched some TV later."

Always.

"Mommy's not drunk, she has just been sick lately, and not feeling well."

Always?”

“Always! Now admit that you are jellofog ya big fat liar! LOL!”

“Required reading before posting should be Mark Twain's "In Defense of the Art of Lying."”

“I was the first person on that thread to say that the truth is "always" the best policy. I stand by that. The #1 rule for a solid foundation for any relationship (parent, child, friend) is to tell the truth. Only exception would be if the truth would cause the person immediate physical harm, like maybe if they have a heart condition or in the middle of a hostage situation. Rare stuff. Otherwise, truth, truth, truth.”

“Read http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3550_summary.html. This article is geared towards building a solid marriage, but applies to all relationships. The Truth falls under his Basic Concept #6: The Policy of Radical Honesty.”

“"When you tell the truth, you don't
have to remember what you said."

~ Anon.



"This is the operative statement. The others are inoperative."

~ Ron Ziegler
April 17, 1973



(and some Twain)”

“Interesting reading Tilt. What do you do for a living again? You continue to impress me with your breadth of knowledge!

MT: "Now let us see what the philosophers say. Note that venerable proverb: Children and fools _always_ speak the truth. The deduction is plain--adults and wise persons _never_speak it. Parkman, the historian, says, "The principle of truth may itself be carried into an absurdity." In another place in the same chapters he says, "The saying is old that truth should not be spoken at all times; and those whom a sick conscience worries into habitual violation of the maxim are imbeciles and nuisances." It is strong language, but true. None of us could _live_ with an habitual truth-teller; but thank goodness none of us has to. An habitual truth-teller is simply an impossible creature; he does not exist; he never has existed. Of course there are people who _think_ they never lie, but it is not so--and this ignorance is one of the very things that shame our so-called civilization. Everybody lies--every day; every hour; awake; asleep; in his dreams; in his joy; in his mourning; if he keeps his tongue still, his hands, his feet, his eyes, his attitude, will convey deception--and purposely. Even in sermons--but that is a platitude."”

“you lie down with dogs you get up with fleas”

“I try to always tell the trues to my kids. I teach them not to lie, not to steal, not to take drugs. I talk to them about trust issues all the time.

It's hard though...I wasn't always an angel ya know. there are things I used to do and say as a child, I really don't want my kids to know. I would be a bad role model.

and think about it...how many times did you say to your spouse in front of your kids "tell her i'm not home"???


I have to actually say I haven't done that yet, but was real close doing it once, then I remembered Bryan was in the other room.


How many times did you promise your kids not to tell daddy this one single time?? (Guilty!I did that once, but really only once)

There many things we don't think about, but really should. Even a price error at the store to your favor... little tinny things.

I am as guilty as anyone else.”

“Techntrek: Interesting reading as well. Dr. Harley makes good points, but I struggle somewhat with his opinions.

Debbie and I recently had a long talk regarding our skeletons in the closet. Based upon a Sunday School class we are both in, it seemed like a good exercise to share together. Although overall it was good that we allowed each other to get a glimpse of the true self within, I am not convinced it was such a good idea when the dust settled.

Sometimes one question leads to another, and even if every portion of your life is crystal -- who's to say the very discussion doesn't raise doubt in the other's mind regarding what we might really be thinking or doing -- when we say we aren't.

I've got some secrets only God knows about. Personally, I think it's best in my life if I just keep it that way. That's my opinion, and I recognize it isn't everyone's.”

“"Yea, teach your kids that lying is OK."
StoveStomper
01:36:53 PM
07/15/04
ignore this user



Stove Stomper makes the point on another thread that the truth is always the best policy. - TownDawg


Where did I say "the truth is ALWAYS the best policy"?
You are putting words in my mouth with your own spin. I knew the ages of Gem's kids and they are plenty old enought for the truth about the accident that killed the kitten. Plus Gem has stated in another past thread that she has had trouble with the oldest kid lying about school problems.

I am basically an honest person because I really suck at lying. I'm not skilled at it like some people are, but I do know not to answer a question from a female of "Does this dress make me look fat?".

Don't put words in my mouth.”

“You're such a cool woman but I love you
Such a cruel woman but I love you
Open up your eyes and realize
You're such a fool woman but I love you
But give me all you've got to give
Cause it sure feels good to me

I'm not your only man I'm just a lover
Not your only man just another
Open up your eyes and realize
I'm gonna take what I can like any other
I'll say any damn thing that you want me to
Cause it don't mean a thing to me

Well
You lie down with dogs, you fall in with thieves
You're gonna catch something but you do as you please
You're scartchin' an itch that nothing can ease
You lie down with dogs you get up with fleas

Get out and find yourself another lover
Why don't you find yourself another lover
Open up your eyes and realize
You don't mean nothing to me I'm not your mother
You gave me all that you had to give
But there's a whole lotta fish in the sea”

“Uh oh, somebody's lying.”

“The best answer to the "Does this dress make me look fat?" question is to avoid the question altogether and immediately change the subject.”

“yep, The Alan Parsons Project did that song a long time ago.”

“StoveStomper: aHhh... got yas!”

“SS: I thought you were responding to several of the posts that were extolling the virtues of ALWAYs telling the truth, and giving me a good slam in the process by responding to my post suggesting that Gaby might lighten the hurt by not admitting all of the truth.

oops. Sorry, I misread it.”

“You can never completely know even the closest person in your life. But if you follow the "rules" you come as close as you can, and God sees you are doing your best. Certainly there are some parts of Dr. Harley's rules that only apply to your spouse. You tell your spouse about all your skeletons, but not your neighbor. But the spouse needs to know. How can they commit 60+ years of their life to you when they don't know the real you? The point of a good marriage isn't to present yourself as the perfect life mate, without a flaw to be found. It is to see inside the person you are married to and accept that they aren't perfect and never will be. A basic precept of many religions is that we are born evil and can't escape that until death. Forgive those around you (and yourself!) for not being perfect and that action makes you more perfect.”

“Uh oh! Towndog's gonna get some hate mail in his in-box now!”

“Oh, my brain just happens to be loaded with all kinds of useless trivia. I've been writing computer preograms for a while now (and sometimes they actually run!)

Twain's interpretation of that 'venerable proverb' is a true classic... and I shall file it away forthwith!

You know what they say... "Always harbor an ad lib so you can trump it up at the drop of a hat..." <G>


I was thinking about how the truth can be a fairly slippery proposition at times. You can be trying to tell it to the very best of your ability, and still...


Anyway... LOL.... That, coupled with Snake Eyes mentioning Twain, made me think of his classic piece: "The dog, not the Chief..." er.... "The Chief, not the dog..."


Then there's that whole Subjective Reality thing... LOL”

“"The air is full of lechery, and rumors of lechery."

-MT


LOL”

“Towndawg gets hate mail?
Naw never, couldn't be.
~snicker~

Telling the truth does not automaticly mean hurting someones feelings or being rude. English is very versatile lauguage and truth can be told without being rude or hurtful.

Another general question.

Why is it when someone espouses living honestly or morally someone always touts the obvious fact that as humans we are imperfect and are sometimes unintentionally hypocritical as if it somehow invalidates striving to do the right thing?

And those same someones get pissed when they find that they were lied to.”

“Lying is universal--we _all_ do it. Therefore, the wise thing is for us diligently to train ourselves to lie thoughtfully, judiciously; to lie with a good object, and not an evil one; to lie for others' advantage, and not our own; to lie healingly, charitably, humanely, not cruelly, hurtfully, maliciously; to lie gracefully and graciously, not awkwardly and clumsily; to lie firmly, frankly, squarely, with head erect, not haltingly, tortuously, with pusillanimous mien, as being ashamed of our high calling. Then shall we be rid of the rank and pestilent truth that is rotting the land; then shall we be great and good and beautiful, and worthy dwellers in a world where even benign Nature habitually lies, except when she promises execrable weather. Then--But am I but a new and feeble student in this gracious art..”

“It’s called the human condition and the eternal struggle to do what is right. We all fail and are hypocrites even when we don’t make grand proclamations espousing our purity. It's how we deal with other's shortcomings that is important and how we deal with our own when pointed out to us. To quote a very wise man…

“If you choose not make a choice you still have made a choice.” [paraphrased]

-Getty Lee”

“It depends on what the definition of 'it' is - Bill C.

Some think this is perfectly OK.”

“i lie all the time. in fact, i'm lying right now!”

“Take off, you hosers!”

“Honesty is often thought of as the opposite of lying. However, this is a very narrow definition that is often thought of as being very "Western" or dualist.

Most moral philosophy would recognize a sort of trivial dishonesty that is part of etiquette, "little white lies" and "polite lying," as acceptable, and usually also recognize the acceptability of lying under grave risk of bodily harm to self or others - Benjamin Constant's "Middle Principle" was one such provision. However, there are some that seek a much more comprehensive ethical certainty about what one says - Immanuel Kant for instance was quite rigid about this. Confucius recognized several levels of honesty, fundamental to his ethics:

His shallowest concept of honesty was implied in his notion of Li: all actions committed by a person to build the ideal society - aiming at meeting their surface desires of a person either immediately (bad) or longer term (good). To admit that one sought immediate gratification could however make a bad act better, and to hide one's long term goals could cloud a good act. A key principle was that a "gentleman" must strive to convey his feelings honestly on his face, so that these could help each other coordinate for long term gain for all. So there was a visible relation between time horizon, etiquette and one's image of oneself even in the mirror. This generates self-honesty and keeps such activities as business calm, unsurprising, and aboveboard. In this conception, one is honest because it suits one's own self-interest only.

Deeper than Li was Yi or righteousness. Rather than pursuing your own selfish interests you should do what is right and what is moral - based on reciprocity. Here too time is central, but as a time span: since your parents spent your first three years raising you, you spent three mourning them after they die. At this level one is honest about one's obligations and duty. Even with no one else to keep you honest or to relate to directly, a deeply honest person would relate to ancestors as if they were alive and would not act in ways that would make them ashamed. This was part of the moral code that included ancestor worship, but Confucius had made it rigorous.

The deepest level of honesty was Ren, out of which flowed Yi and thus Li. Confucius' morality was based upon empathy and understanding others, which required understanding one's own moral core first, rather than on divinely ordained rules, which could simply be obeyed. The Confucian version of the Golden Rule was to treat your inferiors as you would want your superiors to treat you. Virtue under Confucius is based upon harmony with others and a recognition of the honest reality that eventually (say in old age) one will come under the power of others (say one's children). So this level of honesty is to actually put oneself in context of one's whole life and future generations - and choose to do or say nothing that would not reflect one's family's honour and reputation for honesty and acceptance of truth, such as eventual death.

Partially because of incomplete understanding of these deeper notions of honesty among Westerners, in China and Japan it is common to refer to those who do not have them as barbarians. While sometimes Asian cultures sanction an almost intolerable degree of delay and ambiguity for Western tastes, it is very often to avoid lying, or giving a positive impression where doubt exists. These would be thought dishonest by Asians. Thus pressing for a decision on a matter where it is not yet possible to give an honest commitment or answer is seen as extremely rude - in effect, forcing someone to choose to be either rude or dishonest. Both being unthinkable in traditional culture, one thus delays.

Education is often emphasized in ethical traditions because it may be impossible to be considered honest without acquiring some terminology with which to state truth as understood by the society. Thus ignorance can itself generate dishonesty.”

“"Yes, even I am dishonest. Not in many ways, but in some. Forty-one, I think it is."

Mark Twain said in his letter to Joe Twichell, 1905”

“"You are putting words in my mouth with your own spin."

It's always my own spin. I don't mean anything bad by it, it's just my mind thinking of one thing while writing another. All the while I was searching for a good definition of honesty, I discovered myself asking "Another general question" -- I wonder how many places I have worked where we did NOT lie to our customers, our boos, the corporate office.. etc?”

“errata: not boos, boss.”

“I am the dealer in the "yellow cake" from Niger. If you could find out my identity, GW could win the election, hands down, by proving that I was about to ship my "yellow cake" to Iraq.
No, really, I'm the Good Humor man, and I'd really like to sell you some ice cream.
No, really, I'm employed by Penthouse to make up all of those boring sex stories.
No, really, I'm the reincarnation of Atilla the Hun.
I never lie.”

“That casts Ren & Stimpy in an entirely new light.”

“as I'm sitting here reading this thread I cant seem to get that old eagles song out of my head.............Well you can't hide your lyin'eyes and your smile is a thin disguise I thought by now you'd realize there ain't no way to hide your lyin'eyes..........dang good song to have stuck in your head though”

“When people know you are truthful, they will not be as upset when you tell them something truthful as opposed to lying. If a couple asked me and hubby to go out, I would rather say, I don't feel like going out, rather than saying I'm hemmoraging or have eye strain or whatever the story you can think to make up.

Parents teach their kids to lie I think sometimes without realizing it. They make them lie for them or keep secrets. I've seen families do this*.

*Little Johnny, don't tell anyone that daddy cut his head from falling down drunk.

*Little Johnny, we can't pay the paperboy, so tell him mommy isn't home, he has to come back tomorrow, etc....”

“The little white lie part of this reminds me of a 'Friends' episdoe. Ross and Rachel are talking about these lies can help a relationship. The other 4 disagree.

Rachel subtley asks, "Ross, does my butt look fat?"
Ross: "NOOOOOOOO. Honey, does size matter?"
Rachel: "NOOOOOO."

They both turn to the other 4 and in unison say, "See"

Pretty funny stuff.”

“The only two lies that should ever be told...

I won't cum in the mail and the check is in your mouth.”

“
'Beauty is truth, truth beauty,—that is all
     Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know.'                              ⁵⁰


"Ode on a Grecian Urn"
John Keats (1795–1821)
The Oxford Book of English Verse: 1250–1900
Arthur Quiller-Couch, ed. 1919
”

“Lying, ah yes, unfortunately I was told all sorts of lies in my last relationship. The worst was when I caught him lying (actually several others caught him lying) and then he denied it, several times. Guys, don't ever ever do that, lying is bad enough but when you lie about telling the original lie, well, that is unforgiveable in my book. A relationship is built upon trust. Someday I hope to find a guy who believes that with his whole heart.”

“That's what nailed Nixon.... <G>”