Not Fit For Command

“I don't recall Clinton ever saying he had served in the military, Nigal, do you?”

“He didn't try to fake being in the service, did he? <G>”

“I just find it ironic that Kerry is running as some sort of pro-military Vietnam war hero, like Vietnam was a feather in his war cap being a big part of his campaign, and yet he trashed his Vietnam brethren as saying they were war criminals. You can't have it both ways and stay out of controversy. If Kerry never made his military service such a big dealy bob, this story of his lies or mass exaggerations of Vietnam would be a non-issue. He doesn't like the heat and now he's cryin' about it. You put something on the campaign table and it's gonna get hammered. Since he's running on it, we have every right to know if what Kerry says is true or not. Apparently much of it isn't. It's not off limits like so many Dems would want it to be. Another Kerry flip-flop..., "I am a brave war hero and killed many enemy soldiers in a war I think was morally wrong and fought AGAINST! Don't talk about it, just believe me, okay? Okay then". Doh.”

“If Kerry never made his military service such a big dealy bob, this story of his lies or mass exaggerations of Vietnam would be a non-issue.
Buck
03:34:17 PM

Nothing to do with a sleazy-ass attempt to make front page news by attacking it day in and day out? This was not just inserted as a campaign issue by Kerry himself. It was put there very strategically and harped on by a contingent of people that share that ever-so-astonishing line of thinking that says you shouldn't speak your mind [and say negative things] about the country that gives you the freedom to speak your mind! You are clueless, my friend!”

“Some people just don't understand that a man can fight in a war AND criticize it.

In America one can do that, though there are some Americans who don't believe in that particular freedom.

There are organizations here in America for those kind of people.........KKK, Aryan Nations, etc”

“"This was not just inserted as a campaign issue by Kerry himself."

Are you kidding? He spend most of his acceptance speech talking about his Vietnam heroism. Weren't you paying attention when your guy was talking? He made it an issue. Others are just asking him to correct the record.”

“"Some people just don't understand that a man can fight in a war AND criticize it."

I have to problem with someone fighting in a war and critisizing it. Hell, they'd know better than anyone. It's when they fight in a war and then lie about it.”

““Apparently much of it isn't.”


Do you really, honestly believe that?

When most of what these guys are claiming goes against the official record and even their own accounts from as recently as 1996? When one of the accusers recanted his story, called it a ‘terrible mistake’ and said he ‘was the one in trouble here’? When the main financier is also the largest donor to the Texas Republican Party and also a long time friend of Karl Rove’s whom he worked with on Bill Clements gubernatorial campaign? After one of the accusers was forced to quit the Bush campaign because that directly violates Federal Election Law?

You don’t have a learning disability or something do you Buck? I’d hate to pick on someone who isn’t really responsible for what he says.”

“Then you have no problem with Kerry, Nigal. He fought in the war and he didn't lie about it.

The Swift Boat Veterans for Truth turned out to be lying sacks of crap. One guy got a medal in the same action as Kerry, and according to his citation he was under fire, as was Kerry.

That's the record.

Now he denies he was under fire. He never turned in the medal, saying he didn't deserve it because he wasn't under fire. Either he lied about Kerry or he lied about being under fire.

In legal terms, the witness impeached himself. Poof ... end of story.”

“Adding to what Violin posted, this trick against Kerry is exactly what Rove and Shrub did against McClain in the primaries four years ago. SOS, DD!”

“I'd hardly call that a smoking gun V. sKerry has lied many times. Why should we believe him now? Why is it when all the AWOL claims came out it was OK but when guys who were right beside sKerry get called liars? Why hasn't sKerry released all his military records?”

“Nigal, you need to dust off a new argument. For the umpty-twelfth time, Kerry's records have been on the record for a long time. It's Shrub's records that seem to have gone missing. Right theme; wrong candidate.”

“Did any of the Bush fanatics watch the Cavett Show replay on C-Span? John o'Neill made a complete fool of himself and he's still at it.

Gotta love how those creeps edited out the "They said..." in John Kerry's statements for their latest smear... but I guess that's okay with SOME people.

McCain is correct. These Swift Boat Liars (and their fans) are despicable and have no honor.”

“"Then you have no problem with Kerry, Nigal. He fought in the war and he didn't lie about it."

So when sKerry says the events of xmas eve of '68 were SEARED into his memory when he was in Cambodia and it turns out he wasn't...that's not a lie? What about when he came home and threw his medals over the fence, but didn't?

And then there's the whole bunch of lies he's been telling of late, Owning 5 suvs and then saying his family owned them?

What flavor of Kool Aid ya drinking today Geo?”

“"Nigal, you need to dust off a new argument. For the umpty-twelfth time, Kerry's records have been on the record for a long time."

Incomplete records Geo. He hasn't signed a 180 form to release them all.”

“The same flavor you drink when you spout the same ol $hit every day, ignoring the facts.

What are you, a troll for Karl Rove?”

“Why should Kerry release his records? Shrub hasn't released his.”

“Well of course what you say are facts and what I post is bullchit. What? You, Buddha Bush and Laqtose have a club going? Kool Aid Club?”

“"Why should Kerry release his records? Shrub hasn't released his."

Please try to get your addled thoughts into one post Geo. Then again Bush doesn't walk around saying over and over and over, "I'm George Bush and I served in the National Guard. That's why you should vote for me.". Your hypocrisy is very clear when you demand and demand Bush's records be released but sKerry gets a pass. Besides, I don’t give a hang weather Bush did this or that. If he did skirt duties he should hang for it.

Your arguments are irrelevant.”

“Your arguments are irrelevant."
Nigal

Then why do you respond to them?”

“Your hypocrisy is very clear when you demand and demand Bush's records be released but sKerry gets a pass.

I believe if you check back over the thread you will find that you are the one questioning Kerry's records. It wasn't me asking for Shrub's. How can I argue with you when you can't remember what you said, even though it's posted several posts up? Doh!”

“Ha ha! This absolutely cracks me up! You libs are complaining about some conspiriatorial large-donor connections to Bush. Ha ha! Whew doggy! You got beeeellionaires financing the crap out of Kerry's campaign! You got Hollyweird and rock stars and billionaires and MoveOn.org, money flyin' everywhere for Kerry, and now YOU complain if some wealthy people who happen to vote Republican have already proven Kerry lied about some aspects of his service, and will show that he probably lied or grossly exaggerated about other aspects of his service, and now of all a sudden this is icky? Oh man! I LOVE IT! I love the liberal way of thinking... we'll sock it to ya, but don't sock back, that's unfair. WAAAAAH!!! Kerry is basing a big part of his campaign platform on his military service, sheesh! He even opened up his convention speech with a "reporting to duty" gig. What a joke! And then you complain that Kerry should be able to protest a war... DUH!, and you say we don't think it's American for him to do so... huh? What, like it's unAmerican to protest a protester? You can protest a war but you can't protest a protester? Get real! Are you calling us unAmerican? I love this stuff, libs are such babies when the same thing comes right back at them! And if you get upset at what I'm saying, it's UNAMERICAN, okay? Ha ha!”

“Buck, I don't recall reading anything about you being un-American. Are you reading the same thread?

The comment about funding was not about funding the campaign, but funding a pack of lies designed to smear a candidate.

Looks to me like you're getting outraged over things that are not written, or which you misread.”

“Monday, Aug. 23, 2004
N.Y. Daily News Unearths 'Stunning' Democrat Vote Fraud

WEST PALM BEACH, Fla. - About 46,000 people, most of them Democrats, are illegally registered to vote in New York City and in Florida, the liberal New York Daily News reported today.

"The finding is even more stunning given the pivotal role Florida played in the 2000 presidential election, when a margin there of 537 votes tipped a victory to George W. Bush."
And the investigation doesn't include other states or even the suburbs of New York.

The pro-Kerry paper said that efforts to prevent such fraud "rely mostly on the honor system." That's a serious flaw when people who have no honor are involved.


Sixty-eight percent of those registered to vote in both states are Democrats. Sixteen percent did not list a party, and only 12 percent are Republicans.


The paper determined that 400 to 1,000 New Yorkers had voted twice in at least one election, "a federal offense punishable by up to five years in prison and a $10,000 fine."


A possible solution: a national voter registration system with federally assigned ID numbers. Allan Lichtman, a history professor at American University in Washington, told the paper: "I don't think the country is ready for that. It may well be that a few hundred people spilling over and voting twice may be an inevitable friction within the system."

Even if it results in a repeat of the stolen presidential election of 1960?


A reader from Plymouth Meeting, Pa., who sent us this tip wrote: "The Democrats are obviously the party of vote fraud, by a more than 5 to 1 margin. Why aren't these people being punished? The Justice Department SHOULD investigate and PROSECUTE (senior citizens or not, they belong in JAIL)!"”

“And then there is millionares in Hollywood funding that bunch of lies Farn 9/11, and having the balls to call it a documentary. Or funding movingon.org with those lies comparing Bush to Hitler.

What a bunch of hypocrits. You think that crap is just fine but when the truth it told about your Kerry, you whine about it and try to take their 1st amendment rights away.”

“So, Buck, are you saying that the atrocities that Kerry said were related to him by others actually didn't happen? Naivete will only get you so far, then you have to face the facts. What went on in Viet Nam was not always pretty, nor in line with the Geneva Convention. Have fun trying to whitewash the Viet Nam war.
By the way, what's your stand on the Holocaust?”

“I have terrible news. Voter fraud takes place in both parties. You heard it here first.

NoProb, The Swift Boat liars have not told one truth about Kerry.”

“Geobeet, read the thread! It's all over the place about freedoms and America and some don't believe in the freedom to protest, blah blah blah! What a joke!

In America one can do that, though there are some Americans who don't believe in that particular freedom.
- MarkO

...people that share that ever-so-astonishing line of thinking that says you shouldn't speak your mind [and say negative things] about the country that gives you the freedom to speak your mind!
- Treebeard

I actually laugh and enjoy this stuff, so no one take it personally! I just find the liberal mindset in this regard quite enjoyably (is that a word?) funny!”

“Dunaden, my friend, Kerry is a huge exaggerater and he often lies. That is said about Bush all the time, but now if it's said about Kerry, WHOA!, STOP THE WORLD, I WANNA GET OFF! It's already been proven that Kerry lied about one aspect of his "seared" memory. What are my thoughts about what... the Holocaust? What does that have to do with Kerry's campaign? Oh, I know, I'm Hitler for not liking Kerry? :Þ”

“Voter fraud may take place in both parties, but it's notoriously rampant in one. I wonder which one? Hmmmm.”

“Dunaden, anyway, since we're on the subject, what are your thoughts on the War of 1812?”

“"It wasn't me asking for Shrub's. How can I argue with you when you can't remember what you said, even though it's posted several posts up?"

If you will go back to the firt reply you gave me, which wasn't even directed at you but Violin, I brought up the following..."Why is it when all the AWOL claims came out it was OK but when guys who were right beside sKerry get called liars?". And you replied...""Nigal, you need to dust off a new argument. For the umpty-twelfth time, Kerry's records have been on the record for a long time. It's Shrub's records that seem to have gone missing. Right theme; wrong candidate."

So I have no idea what you're talking about. Is the short term memory going out on ya?”

“Judging by all the little plus signs, I'd say someone is flaking out, LOL



You want lies?? LOLOL

Where are all those chemical weapons we went to war to eradicate? LMAO”

“I respect your views tilt. You're phucking crazy but I respect your views. :)”

“`This is what I saw that day'

By William B. Rood
Chicago Tribune
Published August 22, 2004

There were three swift boats on the river that day in Vietnam more than 35 years ago--three officers and 15 crew members. Only two of those officers remain to talk about what happened on February 28, 1969.

One is John Kerry, the Democratic presidential candidate who won a Silver Star for what happened on that date. I am the other.

For years, no one asked about those events. But now they are the focus of skirmishing in a presidential election with a group of swift boat veterans and others contending that Kerry didn't deserve the Silver Star for what he did on that day, or the Bronze Star and three Purple Hearts he was awarded for other actions.

Many of us wanted to put it all behind us--the rivers, the ambushes, the killing. Ever since that time, I have refused all requests for interviews about Kerry's service--even those from reporters at the Chicago Tribune, where I work.

But Kerry's critics, armed with stories I know to be untrue, have charged that the accounts of what happened were overblown. The critics have taken pains to say they're not trying to cast doubts on the merit of what others did, but their version of events has splashed doubt on all of us. It's gotten harder and harder for those of us who were there to listen to accounts we know to be untrue, especially when they come from people who were not there.

Even though Kerry's own crew members have backed him, the attacks have continued, and in recent days Kerry has called me and others who were with him in those days, asking that we go public with our accounts.

I can't pretend those calls had no effect on me, but that is not why I am writing this. What matters most to me is that this is hurting crewmen who are not public figures and who deserved to be honored for what they did. My intent is to tell the story here and to never again talk publicly about it.

I was part of the operation that led to Kerry's Silver Star. I have no firsthand knowledge of the events that resulted in his winning the Purple Hearts or the Bronze Star.

But on Feb. 28, 1969, I was officer in charge of PCF-23, one of three swift boats--including Kerry's PCF-94 and Lt. j.g. Donald Droz's PCF-43--that carried Vietnamese regional and Popular Force troops and a Navy demolition team up the Dong Cung, a narrow tributary of the Bay Hap River, to conduct a sweep in the area.

The approach of the noisy 50-foot aluminum boats, each driven by two huge 12-cylinder diesels and loaded down with six crew members, troops and gear, was no secret.

Ambushes were a virtual certainty, and that day was no exception.

Instructions from Kerry

The difference was that Kerry, who had tactical command of that particular operation, had talked to Droz and me beforehand about not responding the way the boats usually did to an ambush.

We agreed that if we were not crippled by the initial volley and had a clear fix on the location of the ambush, we would turn directly into it, focusing the boats' twin .50-caliber machine guns on the attackers and beaching the boats. We told our crews about the plan.

The Viet Cong in the area had come to expect that the heavily loaded boats would lumber on past an ambush, firing at the entrenched attackers, beaching upstream and putting troops ashore to sweep back down on the ambush site. Often, they were long gone by the time the troops got there.

The first time we took fire--the usual rockets and automatic weapons--Kerry ordered a "turn 90" and the three boats roared in on the ambush. It worked. We routed the ambush, killing three of the attackers. The troops, led by an Army adviser, jumped off the boats and began a sweep, which killed another half dozen VC, wounded or captured others and found weapons, blast masks and other supplies used to stage ambushes.

Meanwhile, Kerry ordered our boat to head upstream with his, leaving Droz's boat at the first site.

It happened again, another ambush. And again, Kerry ordered the turn maneuver, and again it worked. As we headed for the riverbank, I remember seeing a loaded B-40 launcher pointed at the boats. It wasn't fired as two men jumped up from their spider holes.

We called Droz's boat up to assist us, and Kerry, followed by one member of his crew, jumped ashore and chased a VC behind a hooch--a thatched hut--maybe 15 yards inland from the ambush site. Some who were there that day recall the man being wounded as he ran. Neither I nor Jerry Leeds, our boat's leading petty officer with whom I've checked my recollection of all these events, recalls that, which is no surprise. Recollections of those who go through experiences like that frequently differ.

With our troops involved in the sweep of the first ambush site, Richard Lamberson, a member of my crew, and I also went ashore to search the area. I was checking out the inside of the hooch when I heard gunfire nearby.

Not long after that, Kerry returned, reporting that he had killed the man he chased behind the hooch. He also had picked up a loaded B-40 rocket launcher, which we took back to our base in An Thoi after the operation.

John O'Neill, author of a highly critical account of Kerry's Vietnam service, describes the man Kerry chased as a "teenager" in a "loincloth." I have no idea how old the gunner Kerry chased that day was, but both Leeds and I recall that he was a grown man, dressed in the kind of garb the VC usually wore.

The man Kerry chased was not the "lone" attacker at that site, as O'Neill suggests. There were others who fled. There was also firing from the tree line well behind the spider holes and at one point, from the opposite riverbank as well. It was not the work of just one attacker.

Our initial reports of the day's action caused an immediate response from our task force headquarters in Cam Ranh Bay.

Congratulatory message

Known over radio circuits by the call sign "Latch," then-Capt. and now retired Rear Adm. Roy Hoffmann, the task force commander, fired off a message congratulating the three swift boats, saying at one point that the tactic of charging the ambushes was a "shining example of completely overwhelming the enemy" and that it "may be the most efficacious method of dealing with small numbers of ambushers."

Hoffmann has become a leading critic of Kerry's and now says that what the boats did on that day demonstrated Kerry's inclination to be impulsive to a fault.

Our decision to use that tactic under the right circumstances was not impulsive but was the result of discussions well beforehand and a mutual agreement of all three boat officers.

It was also well within the aggressive tradition that was embraced by the late Adm. Elmo Zumwalt, then commander of U.S. Naval Forces, Vietnam. Months before that day in February, a fellow boat officer, Michael Bernique, was summoned to Saigon to explain to top Navy commanders why he had made an unauthorized run up the Giang Thanh River, which runs along the Vietnam-Cambodia border. Bernique, who speaks French fluently, had been told by a source in Ha Tien at the mouth of the river that a VC tax collector was operating upstream.

Ignoring the prohibition against it, Bernique and his crew went upstream and routed the VC, pursuing and killing several.

Instead of facing disciplinary action as he had expected, Bernique was given the Silver Star, and Zumwalt ordered other swifts, which had largely patrolled coastal waters, into the rivers.

The decision sent a clear message, underscored repeatedly by Hoffmann's congratulatory messages, that aggressive patrolling was expected and that well-timed, if unconventional, tactics like Bernique's were encouraged.

What we did on Feb. 28, 1969, was well in line with the tone set by our top commanders.

Zumwalt made that clear when he flew down to our base at An Thoi off the southern tip of Vietnam to pin the Silver Star on Kerry and assorted Bronze Stars and commendation medals on the rest of us.

Error in citation

My Bronze Star citation, signed by Zumwalt, praised the charge tactic we used that day, saying the VC were "caught completely off guard."

There's at least one mistake in that citation. It incorrectly identifies the river where the main action occurred, a reminder that such documents were often done in haste and sometimes authored for their signers by staffers. It's a cautionary note for those trying to piece it all together. There's no final authority on something that happened so long ago--not the documents and not even the strained recollections of those of us who were there.

But I know that what some people are saying now is wrong. While they mean to hurt Kerry, what they're saying impugns others who are not in the public eye.

Men like Larry Lee, who was on our bow with an M-60 machine gun as we charged the riverbank, Kenneth Martin, who was in the .50-caliber gun tub atop our boat, and Benjamin Cueva, our engineman, who was at our aft gun mount suppressing the fire from the opposite bank.

Wayne Langhoffer and the other crewmen on Droz's boat went through even worse on April 12, 1969, when they saw Droz killed in a brutal ambush that left PCF-43 an abandoned pile of wreckage on the banks of the Duong Keo River. That was just a few months after the birth of his only child, Tracy.

The survivors of all these events are scattered across the country now.

Jerry Leeds lives in a tiny Kansas town where he built and sold a successful printing business. He owns a beautiful home with a lawn that sweeps to the edge of a small lake, which he also owns. Every year, flights of purple martins return to the stately birdhouses on the tall poles in his back yard.

Cueva, recently retired, has raised three daughters and is beloved by his neighbors for all the years he spent keeping their cars running. Lee is a senior computer programmer in Kentucky, and Lamberson finished a second military career in the Army.

With the debate over that long-ago day in February, they're all living that war another time.”

“Let's clear up Kerry's war record once and for all. He got 3 purple hearts and still has 4 limbs. Sounds like a bunch of military grandstanding to me. A great many people saw more combat, and received worse injuries, then John Kerry could imagine and got nothing but a bullet in the arse. Yet he came out about as decorated as a Christmas tree for the small amount of time he was there.”

“If John Kerry wants to use his Vietnam military service as a major part of his campaign, he either needs to say he's sorry for participating in the war and that he's ashamed of what he did there and the atrocities he committed against humanity; or say he was a Purple Hearted courageous hero who fought bravely and proudly for his country. Either one would do. Instead he's trying to do both and politically appease the anti-war crowd and the hawkish crowd at the same time and it doesn't work. El flippo floppo to the maxo. He just can't seem to define himself or take a stance on either one. I've noticed that Bush has a clear majority with war veterans. I wonder why that is? That's a rhetorical question, no need to answer. Most of us know why. Anyway, how YOU doin'?”

“It’s gonna be a hard week for me. I’ve got a big trip this weekend and I generally get real irritable the week before a trip so I gotta stay out of the chit for a while so I don’t turn too vicious. I got too pissy with ya yesterday Geo and for that I apologize. May-a-Kupa?”

“So, two out of the three swift boat commanders back Kerry's story, as do all of the men who were actually ON THE BOAT. The people behind this attack add should be ashamed. Deeply ashamed.”

“Paul O'Neil has had it out for Kerry since the 70's. It really no suprise that people take his word for it.

Geo - I thought you would have given up by now.

Is it really worth it?”

“The people behind this truth-seeking ad have the same 1st Amendment rights as Michael Moore, MoveOn.org, George Soros, Ted Turner, Richard Clarke, actors, actresses, authors, musicians, Hollywood producers, etc., etc. Why don't you complain about them too? Bush has been called every name in the book and has been slandered and ridiculed and lied about, yet libs think that's okay, that it's "fact" because you don't like Bush. Did you know that 9 of the top 10 soft money 527 ads are from Democrats bashing Bush? 9 out of 10! And you complain about that ONE? I mean, Bush is compared to Hitler, we're told he's a liar, we're told he knew about 9/11 BEFOREHAND, we're told all kinds of crap about Bush. And now some decorated veterans challenge Kerry's claims about what he did in Vietnam, rightfully so, and now you get all in a tizzy and it's all unfair? The great majority of veterans back Bush, there's a reason for that. I'm surprised Kerry can't muster up a big lead since he's got all this $$ money behind him, and rock bands on national tours supporting his campaign, and actors and actresses speaking out at every opportunity, and Hollywood producers creating anti-Bush ads, and billionaires behind Kerry, and the vast majority of 527 soft money groups creating ads slamming Bush, etc., etc. And despite all this, the Dems are upset and demanding that Bush denounce the one public group in his favor, the Swift Boat Veterans For Truth? Come on, get real. They have the right to speak their mind, as do the Bush haters. You'd think you guys would like the 10-1 odds in your favor, but even then you get upset. Ahhhh... liberalism at its best!”

“Dear Editor,

This letter is in response to the new attacks on John Kerry's war record by a group calling itself the "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth." As for most veterans of any war and as people who know me will testify, it is not easy for me to talk about my experiences in Vietnam. However, because of these new ads and, I understand, a new book recently published by an old Charles Colson "Enemies List" hit man, I feel compelled to speak out. Unfortunately, the veterans featured in these attacks are being used by extreme right wing Bush supporters to spread their lies and malign John Kerry.

I feel that most of these veterans who are joining this attack are against Kerry for what he did after he was home from the war than for what he did in the war. If they are against him for his stance against the Vietnam War, that certainly is their right, but to spread lies and malicious innuendos about his time on the rivers of Vietnam is not morally right and does a disservice not only to Kerry, but to all those who served and were wounded or died in that war. The people who are using these veterans for their own means obviously do not care about that. They did the same thing to Senator John McCain and Congressman Max Cleland in 2000 with no remorse or care for the consequences.

To me what is worse is that by their silence, the current administration has not, with any real meaning, disavowed itself or distanced itself in anyway from any of these scurrilous attacks, past or present. I feel that this truly shows the Bush administration for what they really are and ultimately, who is truly responsible for these attacks.

Since I happened to be along on one of the "excursions" where the boats that we were on were attacked and after which Lt. Kerry was cited for valor, I thought it appropriate to give my recollection of that event. This happened on March 13, 1969. I was assigned as Psychological Operation Officer for the Swift Boat group out of An Thoi, Vietnam, from January 1969 to October 1969. As such, I was on No. 43 boat, skippered by Don Droz who was later that year killed by enemy fire. We were second in line while exiting the river and going through the opening in a fish trap when a mine blew up under the No. 3 boat directly in front of us and we started taking small arms fire from the beach. Almost immediately, another mine went off somewhere behind us. All boats, except the one hit, immediately wheeled toward the beach that most of the fire came from (a tactic devised by Lt. Kerry, I later learned) and commenced showering the beaches with so much lead, that it could probably be now mined there. The noise was of course, deafening.

Three things that are forever pictured in my mind since that day over 30 years ago are: (1) The No. 3, 50-foot long, Swift boat getting huge, huge air; John Kerry thought it was about two feet. (He was farther away from it than I). I think it was at least four feet and probably closer to six feet; (2) All the boats turning left and letting loose at the same time like a deadly, choreographed dance and; (3) A few minutes later, John Kerry bending over his boat picking up one of the rangers that we were ferrying from out of the water. All the time we were taking small arms fire from the beach; although because of our fusillade into the jungle, I don't think it was very accurate, thank God. Anyone who doesn't think that we were being fired upon must have been on a different river.

The picture I have in my mind of Kerry bending over from his boat picking some hapless guy out of the river while all hell was breaking loose around us, is a picture based on fact and it cannot be disputed or changed. It's a piece of history drawn in my mind that cannot be redrawn. Sorry, "Swift Boats Veterans for the Truth"- that is the truth.

To say that John Kerry or any of us were on that river to intentionally collect Purple Hearts really does every soldier and sailor, past and present, a disservice. We were going up those rivers (with an ongoing casualty rate of 86 percent at the time) on the orders of the same people who approved of Kerry's medals and who are now joining in the attacks against Kerry. Unbelievable.

I would hope that the American public sees these evil extreme right wing attacks for what they really are and also pray that the veterans being used by these unpatriotic right wing extremist political operatives will divorce themselves immediately from them and speak to the real issues as to why they oppose John Kerry. I just don't understand how anyone can align themselves with those who intentionally and gleefully painted a decorated triple amputee (Max Cleland) from Vietnam as unpatriotic. I think that this is the most disastrous, un-American thing that can be done to our servicemen and women, especially now with another unending war going on. Your ends cannot possibly justify these means. Come on!

Jim Russell

Vietnam veteran,

USN (1966-71)”

““They ought to get rid of all those 527s, independent expenditures that have flooded the airwaves,” Bush said, not explaining whether by “they” he meant Congress or the FEC, which regulates political groups.

“There have been millions of dollars spent. ... I signed a law that I thought would get rid of those (groups),” he added.

Did tricky Dick II fool him again?”

“evil extreme right wing attacks

HA HA HA HA!!! Oh man, good schtuff! Violin, I could cut and paste articles from decorated veterans who would say otherwise. Kerry exaggerated and lied (or at least forgot about his "seared memory" recollections about his service merely for political gain. That's why the majority of veterans today are voting for Bush. The way Kerry speaks of Vietnam, he should distance himself from that war as much as possible, not bragging how he committed war crimes and wants to be decorated for it in the process.”

“""In his book "Colin Powell: An American Journey," Powell writes scathingly about young, privileged cowards who avoided service in Vietnam:
"I particularly condemn the way our political leaders supplied the manpower for that (the Vietnam) war. The policies -- determining who would be drafted and who would be deferred, who would serve and who would escape, who would die and who would live -- were an antidemocratic disgrace. I can never forgive a leadership that said, in effect: These young men -- poorer, less educated, less privileged -- are expendable (someone described them as "economic cannon fodder"), but the rest are too good to risk. I am angry that so many sons of the powerful and well placed and many professional athletes (who were probably healthier than any of us) managed to wangle slots in Reserve and National Guard units [e.g., George W. Bush (BuzzFlash's insertion)]. Of the many tragedies of Vietnam, this raw class discrimination strikes me as the most damaging to the ideal that all Americans are created equal and owe equal allegiance to our country."
-- and --
"Better-off kids beat the draft with college deferments [e.g., Dick Cheney (BuzzFlash's insertion)]."""”

“I guess if a war-serving fellow veteran disputes Kerry's account, it's an evil extreme right wing attack! Ha ha! Oh, I love it!”

“Did you ever stop to think about how vile and stupid that is?

Do you see anyone posting pictures of Kerry turning into Stalin?

Thanks for upping the level of political discord.”

“Yeah. And I think what Bush is doing is stupid and vile.

If the shoe fits...”

“"That's why the majority of veterans today are voting for Bush."
- Buck


Not around these parts. The decorated WW II vet in the next office has four anti-Bush posters and a signed photo of Kerry and Edwards on his wall... and he voted for Goldwater and Reagan (twice). Go figure...”