NS:: BREAKTHROUGH on Preventing Cramps

“Thanks, madeintahoe, for your string, Does anyone drink Cytomax ? It resulted in my reading about Cytomax and then about hyponatremia. Because of severe leg cramps at times, I have been trying to find a way to avoid them when backpacking, and at other times. My knowledge has been increased and I may now be able avoid the leg cramps. The most important thing I learned is that I need to replace the lost body fluids during exercise, (as well as after.) Secondly, I learned that Sodium (salt and chloride) is an electrolyte, which helps the body distribute water. So, starting with my next trip, I will be replacing things along the way, not just at the day's end.

Previously, I had some success using Gatorade plus two Tums per day. But since I am usually hiking to help lose weight, the high sugar content bothered me. Likewise, Cytomax must contain a lot of sugar, too. Otherwise, why would they offer Cytomax Lite? With high hopes of no cramps, I will soon be backpacking. So, thanks again.

Facts on Hyponatremia

"The MedTerms.com medical dictionary defines hyponatremia as an abnormally low concentration of sodium in the blood. Hyponatremia is also known as “water intoxication.” Sodium (salt and chloride) is an electrolyte, which helps the body distribute water. This is essential for water balance and for your muscles and organs to function effectively. Electrolytes are lost through sweat. When exercising, our body temperature rises and we sweat to keep cool. The more we sweat, the more sodium lost. Sweat loss varies from as little as 16 ounces to over three quarts during each hour of exercise (Gatorade Sports and Science Institute). For this reason, it is important to replace lost body fluids during and after exercise. To completely replace these fluids, you must not only replace water, but also sodium and chloride. Those who consume excessive amounts of water after exercise can further deplete sodium and chloride levels, leading to electrolyte depletion and possibly over-hydration."

”

“Oh,...sorry ..I thought this was a thread for the women ;)”

“Same here, Divinty.”

“I just take Ibuprophen...or how ever it is spelled”

“and when hiking I take emer'genC”

“The only hyponatremia I've ever experienced was in the hospital thanks to an overenthusiastic staff there. Peeing over a liter an hour was a bit much.”

“LOL@divinity

I started using gatorade this summer in addition to drinking lots of water. I think it made a noticeable improvment in my hiking speed, endurance, and in reducing muscle soreness.”

“Hyponatremia is a common ailment of marathon runners. A woman collapsed and died at the finish from hyponatremia a couple of years ago. It was reported that she only drank water during the run, no gatorade. Gotta replace those electrolytes you're sweating out.”

“that is...she died at the Chicago marathon.”

“And remember Potassium is also an electrolyte, and it helps control muscle contractions.”

“So......are you trying to replace potassium or are you just glad to see me?


LOLl..hahahah...sorry..I had to say it”

“LOL”

“Thanks, divinity, I needed a good laugh.

And thank you, BackSlacker. A lack of potassium is usually suspected first. I have been pretty good at maintaining it's level. And now chloride is included in the list. I have suspected insufficient salt was a problem, but have not done much agout it. but the big thing now, for me, is to replace things along the trail, not just at the day's end.

Unfortunately, I have two other contributing things. Medication keeps my blood pressure very low and my heart pumps only about 85% of what it should pump. Consequently, I believe that my body recovery rate is hindered and takes more time.

Phil - Glad to hear about your improvement.”

“this past summer I started mixing gatorade up and using it in my water bladder during the day. I'd measure out powder mix for one litre and carry it in those little snack size ziplock bags. One for each day that I planned to be out. Seemed to work pretty good.”

“Cytomax keeps me going. When I ran marathons they said it was better than water. Been using it since ~1988? Good stuff.”

“I have used the emergen C drink mix that Divinity talked about. It works ok. I have been taking a potassium supplement 60mgs. daily for a couple of years now. I used to get leg cramps all the time, mostly from working on my feet for 10 hours a day. The potassium works real well, but I still sweat profusely during a hike or any outside activities, esp in the summer. I carry along Gatorade, but seldom use it. I will try it during my next hike in hot weather. Haven't tried the stuff you mentioned, let us know how it works Paul.”

“try "endurolytes", they are an electrolyte capsule taken every couple of hours during strenuous activity. Cost $13 or so for 120 pills. I have used them with great success for 2 years.”

“Thanks all.

birch - Thanks for the information. Those capsules may be just what I need. Using Google I found many sources of Electrolyte Capsules. It was interesting to learn that proper balance may help problems with the feet, too.

Maintenance of proper electrolyte levels will reduce swelling of hands and feet after many hours of exercise, and that will reduce "hot spots" and blisters on the feet.

”

“birch - Why did you start taking taking endurolytes and how did you find out about them? The cause of leg cramps is something my doctors cannot explain. Thanks.”

“I just put about a shot glass full of balsamic vinegar in about 16 to 20 oz. of water and drink one in the morning and one in the evening to prevent cramping. It works and digest easily.

(Directions:
Take a bottled water bottle (16 to 20 oz.)
Take a big gulp out of it
Put in about a tablespoon or two of Balsamic vinegar.
Drink mid-morning and mid afternoon.”

“I still just use Midol.”

“BS - Thanks. That is an excellent suggestion. Vinegar helps a lot of things. The vinegar restores potassium, the lack of which is the usual cause of cramps. I used to take it in fruit juices.

Unfortunately for me, it helps restore the natural clotting capability of blood. My heart condition requires keeping my blood thin to prevent clotting.

Here is an informative document about vinegar:
Balsamic Vinegar”

“besides Midol, my breakthrough on preventing cramps was calcium! i'd always heard the potassium thing, but that didn't help me. i started taking calcium a few months ago, and they disappeared like magic...then when i ran out of vitamins for a week, they were back.”

“"i'd always heard the potassium thing, but that didn't help me."

Budder set me hip to this and it does seem to help but I'm not a big cramper anyhow.”

“i used to get cramps in my feet and legs that would wake me up in the middle of the night. i'd sit bolt-upright going, "aahhhhh!" i do sorta miss that, b/c it was so fun to freak Tarpy out. LOLOL!! hahaha.”

“NS
Thanks for the link.
I did not know that vinegar help in clotting blood. It will take me a while to go through that link. Very interesting.

I've been using either Apple Cider vinegar or Balsamic vinegar for years and it really does work. If I haven't taken it for a few days or a week and I feel like I'm gonna cramp, I take a dose, straight, in a shot glass, and chase it with water. The cramps will immediately disappear. Good stuff. Balsamic is more concentrated and better tasting (sweet).”

“Nigal- You're lucky. When I took potassium pills, I got headaches in the back-center, above my neck.

lyra - You're right. Calcium does help. I was taking two tums a day, plus Gatorade.

The Endurolytes that birch mentioned, contain:
Ingredients (per capsule):
Sodium Chloride 100 mg.
Calcium (Chelate) 50 mg.
Magnesium (Chelate) 25 mg.
Potassium (Chelate) 25 mg.
Vitamin B-6 (Pyrodoxine HCL) 6.6 mg.
Manganese (Chelate) 1.6 mg.
L-Tyrosine 50 mg.

They look good to me. I'm planning to try them.

Years ago, working in a steel mill, I took salt tablets provided by the company. In Cosby I asked pharmacist if they had some. He had no knowledge of them.”

“"i used to get cramps in my feet and legs that would wake me up in the middle of the night. i'd sit bolt-upright going, "aahhhhh!" i do sorta miss that, b/c it was so fun to freak Tarpy out. LOLOL!! hahaha."

I sometimes get the same thing lyra. I'd sit straight up and start yelling, "Oh! Rub me! Message me!". Didn't have anything to do with cramps though.”

“Nowslimme: I've never used Cytomax, but I noticed that they have a product called "Cytomax Pre-Formance" that some people take an hour or so in advance of workouts.”

“Here's some more stuff I found interesting.
Sodium/Salt & Electrolytes
the problem will be keeping everything in balance -- not too much, not too little.”

“"...you absolutely have to have good electrolyte capsules to keep from bonking."

LOL. What a professional description.

I may need to try some of the remedies on this thread myself - started getting cramps in my left calf a few months ago in my sleep. Only had 2 bad ones so far, but both put me in the fetal position, waking my wife up with my screaming. :-(”

“thanks for the image there, Nigal! :-D”

“techntrek - I know the feeling - from years of experience. It takes about 5-10 minutes for things to calm down for me.

pedxing - Right. It appears that for some of us, it will be helpful to take something before, during and after a strenuous activity.”

“Calcium = tums munchies.


Works wonders.”

“When exercising, especially in heat, plain water or similar, is definitely not enough. You will sweat out plenty of salt, minerals and whatever. My cause of cramps, dehydration and fatigue. I use a drink called "Ultima Replenisher". This is probably one of the best drinks mixes available. It resupplies your body with all the electrolytes and minerals you need with zero sugar. Very easy on the stomach. I have used this on plenty of trail runs and hikes and it works great.

www.ultimareplenisher.com/

Hard to find, but you can always go to their web site to buy. This is definitely worth trying. Not the sweetest taste, but not bad either.”

“"thanks for the image there, Nigal! :-D"

Hey, if I was at work right now I'd have to charge ya $4.95 a minute for that image. I may be easy but I ain't cheap.

BTW- I have found that some rubs like Badger Balm and Tiger Balm help keep musles loose too.”

“Thank you nowslimmer for posting this!

More helpful and very interesting information.
I have heard of people getting cramps while hiking, especially in there legs. That must be awful to have, I have never had that happen to me, but sometimes my hands do swell up.
The taking of the vinegar is very interesting, I have heard vinegar is good for a lot of things.

I drank each morning one packet of emergenc drink on a backpacking trip I did two years ago...and I really could feel the difference throughout the day, I really believe drinking that little packet each morning helped me, I felt great the whole trip out, never had a problem at all.

I am now wondering if people that hike at the higher elevations say between 6000 & 11,000 feet which is what I do my hiking and backpacking at, compared to say sea level up to 6000 feet...if the leg cramps & the loosing of the electrolytes are worse because you are at that higher elevation? Does anyone know if that makes it worse?

Thanks again for all this information!”

“madeintahoe - Thank you. There is a lot of information becoming available.

Cramps seem to be a result of stressing muscles where there exists a chemical inbalance at the the nerve ends. Usually, this inbalance seems to result from use(exercise). Sometimes the body can use some help in restoring the balance.

I have not been able to connect altitudes up to 14,000 feet with cramps. My worst cramps occurred agoing up Mt. Fuji. But I started at the bottom, after 8 hours of buses and trains and went up about 7,500 feet, almost to the top, before stopping for a few hours. Once I stopped, the cramps hit and hit hard! But since I have gone higher without cramps, I do not attribute it to the altitude. I have not experienced any altitude problems up to 14,000 feet.

Other people may be able to connect cramps and altitude. We are all different.”

“...can be a dangerous thing.

(First off, I am not a medical doctor, but I do work in medicine.)

I was a little disturbed when I read from the vinegar site (previously mentioned). The information given is attributed to "Author Unknown", and no references to medical journals are given to back up any of the claims made. This alone should make you suspicious.

Listed as one of the "nutritious properties" is "Cholerine". This term refers to the disease cholera.

http://www.hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/Cholerine

Perhaps the author meant to say "chlorine", which like the rest of the items listed is an element. (Regular table salt is made of equal parts sodium and chlorine [sodium chloride]; when dissolved in water they dissociate into sodium and chlorine ions which can be called "electrolytes".)

The webpage also fails to mention that vinegar is primarily acetic acid, a weak acid, and that all the wonderful things they've listed are only present in very small amounts. There may be other ways of getting electrolytes back in your system without having to drink acetic acid; for example, bananas are known to be a good source of potassium.

http://www.drdecuypere.com/fruitchart.htm
(source not listed, but gives link to USDA site below)
http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/

If you prefer vinegar, by all means, drink up!

I believe the basic message here is correct: hyponatremia can be avoided by replacing electrolytes during and after exercise. This is probably why Gatorade was developed in the first place. Other products may be just as effective as Gatorade.

As mentioned, calcium is also an electrolyte and plays a part in muscle cramping. For a more "scientific" reading, try the following (but keep in mind the author is trying to sell you something):

http://www.myodynamics.com/articles/cramps.html

(If the introduction makes your head spin, try skipping down to the conclusions at the bottom.)

Your best source of information should be your family doctor or a licensed nutritionist. After all, this is your health we're talking about, and you should seek professional advice.

Nowslimmer: Please, please, please! Talk to your doctor. You are on medication to lower your blood pressure. Too much salt can lead to high blood pressure.

http://www.dietitian.com/salt.html

This sounds like something you should consult a professional about, not something you should try to experiment on yourself.

(By the way, the salt tablets that used to be available to alleviate heat-related discomfort before the widespread use of air-conditioning were found to cause more problems than they cured, so they are no longer used.)

http://www.vnh.org/FM21-10/ch2.html

Sorry for the long post!
Happy Trials!”

“Thanks for your observations and comments. You are correct and I should have labeled each link: READ AT YOUR OWN RISK.

The doctors do not have all the answers. I now believe I know much more than my doctors do about cramps, and I don't know it all! I started taking one-a-day vitamins, while backpacking, because of a limited diet. Now at every visit they check to make sure that I continue to take the vitamins.

My salt intake has never been limited severely. It was recommended that I give up or severely limit eating of red meat. I realize that I will have to experiment and be careful of taking any excess. I do imform the doctors what I am doing and what pills I swallow besides the ones prescribed. (Usually afterwards.) From your URL about salt:

Salt has been blamed in the past as causing high blood pressure. New research though is suggesting that too little calcium or potassium as having some impact on blood pressure. So salt may not be the only bad guy after all.

However, I plan to discontinue an aspirin every day, while backpacking, as recommended when taking some of the Electrolyte Capsules. My only limitation is to keep my pulse under 130. My cardiologist has ordered me to return to the mountains for backpacking. I always return home in good condition. He says that my exercise program is the only thing keeping me alive.

Well, thanks for your concern. At the moment I feel that Electrolyte Capsules are an improvement to Gatorade, Tums and bananas while backpacking. I'm planing to try birch's "endurolytes." We'll see how it goes. I love it in the mountains. Besides backpacking, I do sit-ups, push-ups, stomach crunches and pound my fists into some of the tree trunks. And I talk a lot around the campfires, even when I am alone.

That is a great reference to the FM you provided. Thanks. I bookmarked it. (Have you seen my pictures?”

“nowslimmer - great pics! Remind me not to upset you on a hike in the woods! :)

I'm glad to hear you keep your doctors informed, even if you do know more than them. (Well, at least about cramps.) :)

I think I talk when I'm alone, too, but I don't need a campfire to do that.

Happy trails!”

“bonecrusher, I started taking the endurolytes for a variety of reasons. The primary was that I have had heat stroke twice.To prevent that I drink LOADS of water when I race,run,hike etc...I like sports drinks but they are expensive (I drink accelerade) and can get messy when I am in a hurry (races etc...) so I tried the free sample I had from ecaps. I then bought a big old jug and take often. They are a standby in my medical kit in case any one I am with gets in a pinch.”