Hostage Takers In Russia

“OK, the U.S got it's govt' buildings and commerce buildings protected. But the schools are not protected.

The students taken hostage by the terrorists in Russia, could easily have been here. The kids are sitting ducks.”

“Didn't anyone mourn the Chechnyan children?”

“Maybe the Chechnyans are angry for some reason? Please note HRW has documented abuses committed by both sides. Here are the Russian abuses:

Source

http://www.hrw.org/campaigns/russia/chechnya/

The Crisis Continues
Russian Forces in Chechnya continue to commit atrocities at an alarming rate. Russian abuses documented by HRW since late 1999 include:
• summary execution of civilians;
• arbitrary detention and the beating and torture of detainees;
• and looting.
Chechen forces have summarily executed servicemen they have captured as well as physically abused civilians.
The humanitarian situation remains in crisis as well. A third of Chechnya's population — more than 260,000 people — is displaced within Chechnya and another 170,000 are living in difficult circumstances in neighboring Ingushetia. Humanitarian organizations cannot operate effectively in Chechnya because of the climate of insecurity.
See HRW's recent press releases and reports on Chechnya to find out more

The bodies of nine men bearing the marks of extrajudicial execution were found in Chechnya on Friday, Human Rights Watch said today. Eight of the men had been forcibly disappeared two weeks ago after armed men, presumed to be Russian forces, took them from their homes

The armed conflict in Chechnya, now in its fourth year, is the most serious human rights crisis of the new decade in Europe. It has taken a disastrous toll on the civilian population and is now one of the greatest threats to stability and rule of law in Russia. Yet the international community’s response to it has been shameful and shortsighted.

Russia’s forces are committing abuses against displaced Chechens in Ingushetia as the brutality of the conflict in Chechnya spills over into this neighboring republic, Human Rights Watch said in a report released today.

In April, the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe (PACE) adopted a strongly worded resolution stating that Russian government structures have "failed dismally to provide... protection from human rights abuses" to civilians in Chechnya and identifying a climate of impunity as a primary cause for continuing abuses by Russian and Chechen forces.

Chechens in Moscow have long been the target of police abuse. But the mass hostage taking at a Moscow theater by Chechen rebel fighters in October 2002 triggered an intense police crackdown and widespread discrimination against ethnic Chechens living in Moscow.

Russia's announcement today that the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) must end its mission in Chechnya raises serious human rights concerns, Human Rights Watch said today. The OSCE mission mandate expired December 31 after Russia and the OSCE failed to agree to extend it. The six-person mission had been tasked since mid-2001 with promoting respect for human rights, facilitating humanitarian aid, and promoting peaceful resolution of the crisis in Chechnya. Russian officials reportedly stated that the mission would cease to exist.

Persons in Chechnya continue to "disappear" in the custody of Russian forces, Human Rights Watch charged today. Days after the U.N. Commission on Human Rights in Geneva introduced a resolution on the situation in Chechnya, Human Rights Watch released a new 49-page report, Last Seen…: Continued "Disappearances" in Chechnya, detailing 87 cases of "disappearances" carried out between September 2000 and January 2002

Russian forces have raped and sexually assaulted women during winter operations in Chechnya, Human Rights Watch charged today.

Russian forces on sweep operations in Chechnya continue to commit serious violations, Human Rights Watch said today. Fourteen witnesses have told Human Rights Watch researchers in the field about torture and ill-treatment, forced disappearances, and the discovery of the corpses and burned remains of nine people that took place during the March 6-11 sweep operation in Staryi Atagi, 25 miles south of Grozny

Russian forces in Chechnya arbitrarily detain, torture, and kill civilians in a climate of lawlessness, Human Rights Watch said today. In a 51-page report, Human Rights Watch details a series of military sweep operations during which it found hundreds of men were arbitrarily detained, dozens tortured, and at least six extrajudicially executed.

Russian authorities have literally buried evidence of extra-judicial executions in Chechnya, according to Human Rights Watch. In a 24-page report, Burying the Evidence: The Botched Investigation into a Mass Grave in Chechnya, released today, the organization documents the Russian government’s botched investigation of a mass gravesite discovered in late February 2001.

Today a resolution expressing grave concern about human rights violations in Chechnya was adopted by the U.N. Commission on Human Rights. The resolution strongly condemns the use of disproportionate force and serious human rights violations by Russia's forces and calls on Russia to investigate of all violations of international human rights and humanitarian law. It also raises concern about the pattern of forced disappearances, torture and summary executions perpetrated by Russia's forces in Chechnya. The resolution stops short of calling for an international commission of inquiry. Find out more.
From March 19 through April 27, 2001 the United Nations Commission on Human Rights held its annual meeting in Geneva. HRW urged Commission members to:
• condemn ongoing atrocities in Chechnya;
• note the total failure of the Russian government to abide by the UN's previous resolution;
• and establish an international commission of inquiry to investigate and document atrocities committed by both sides to the conflict in Chechnya"”

“The Chechens do have legitimate issues with Russia. However, the radical Islamofascist segment of the rebellion cynically uses these issues as a cloak of legitimacy to further its own terrorist agenda: uniting the Muslims in the Caucuses to form an Islamofascist theocracy (eerily similar to al Qaeda, eh?). It's this radical segment that is responsible for terrorism - killing innocent civilians in Russia. Although Russia should be condemned for its atrocities, the Islamofascsists did bring it on themselves when they resorted to terorrism. And because of this, the whole conflict is bloody quagmire.”

“A great read is Robert Young Pelton’s book The Hunter, The Hammer and Heaven. He spent some time with the rebels when Russia was fighting them and some of the chit he saw makes your hair stand up on end. It was a media vacuum and the Russians acted with impunity. Huge gasoline bombs were used and other illegal stuff. This however gives no excuses to these terrorists, er, sorry, freedom fighters. Hang them up by their testicals and throw rocks at them until they fall to pieces.

There is a
thread going on at the Black Flag Café at Pelton’s site on this. The BFC is a great read and there are people from all over the world there.”

“Good post, Nigal.

I wonder who's going to be the first to come to the defense of the Chechen terrorists? Tilt? Violin? PedXing?”

“There is a movie, "Prisoner Of The Moutnains", made after the first Chechen war in the early '90s.

I remember reading about an organization of Russian mothers who were retrieving their conscripted sons from the first Chechen disaster(war).

Their boys were(and maybe still are) being poorly trained and sent to fight in Chechnia in a war with little purpose other than to keep Chechnia from leaving the "federation".”

“Any time children pay the ultimate price for someone elses ideals, it wrong, not matter what the cause. Children do not know or care about politics.

It is a sad day when children die in the name of a political ideal.”

“I'm a little fuzzy on the history but I believe Chechnia was grabbed by the Russians in the latter half of the 19th century.

This is an old grudge the Chechens are playing out and resorting to terror tactics just seems to intensify the conflict.

This looks like a job for outside arbitration.”

“Actually I think the Russians should just leave Russia. If they weren't there there'd be no attacks, right BearMag?”

“Culturally the Russians and Chechens are no strangers to violence.

The terror tactics are clearly wrong.

The Russians are outsiders in Chechnia.”

“This is an old grudge the Chechens are playing out and resorting to terror tactics just seems to intensify the conflict.

That's because the terrorism is coming from the rogue Islamofascist military leaders who have direct ties to al Qaeda. They are NOT fighting in terms of the historical feud - they're fighting for Islamofascist causes, like I've said already.

It's an important distinction to remember.”

“That's a weird question, Nigal.”

“"The Russians are outsiders in Chechnia."

Yes, this is the greatest pitfall of imperialism isn't it?

"That's a weird question, Nigal."

I'm just going on BearMag's theory that if the Jews simply left Israel they wouldn't get attacked anymore. It must be applicable here as well.”

“Agreed, Mutt.

But continuation of the historical conflict makes for fertile ground for the Islamofascist "Brothers".

The same kind of Islamofascists showed up in Bosnia ten years ago to "help" their "brothers" fight the Serbs.

U.N. forces escorted these moo-jah-ha-din wackos out of the country.
They were trying to enforce Islamic rules on Bosnian women.
Some women were beaten for wearing European style clothing.”

“"I'm just going on BearMag's theory that if the Jews simply left Israel they wouldn't get attacked anymore. It must be applicable here as well."

I don't see any such "theory" by bearmagnet.

And I don't understand why you, Nigal, would post that.”

“Wearing European style clothing in Europe no less.”

“But continuation of the historical conflict makes for fertile ground for the Islamofascist "Brothers".

Well, all sides are complicit in this, to be sure.”

“The Russians in Chechnia are throwin' gasoline on the fire.”

“"I don't see any such "theory" by bearmagnet.

And I don't understand why you, Nigal, would post that."

It is from another discussion we had a week or so ago Mark.”

“I'm just going on BearMag's theory that if the Jews simply left Israel they wouldn't get attacked anymore. It must be applicable here as well."
Nigal
09:43:12 AM
09/02/04

LMAO! However, you can not compare What i said about Isreal to any other state. I made that somewhat facetious statement based on how Isreal was created, which is somewhat unique in modern times, no?

Let me state that although I disapprove of Chechnian terrorism I understand it. What did everyone expect? Chechians were faced with a foe that was not only overwhelmingly superior but disregarded basic human rights. Russia bred these terrorists and created outside muslim sympothy.

Granted the sympathy would have been there with or without Russian brutality but to what degree?

How many people have lost civillian relatives to Russian tactics? How many of these are children who will grow up with hate?”

“Good point, bearmagnet.

The following is a caption from a photo.
"The Train Station: Chechen women, in traditional headscarves and skirts, slap cement on salvaged bricks in an attempt to put Grozny's bombed-out train station back together. The women, many of whom lost husbands, sons and fathers in the war with Russia, work without pay. Their only reward is distraction from their grief and doing something for their city. Chechen men, afraid of leaving their homes and being arrested by Russian soldiers, usually do not participate in the rebuilding efforts."

From the same website:
"Grozny, the capital of Chechnya, was once a thriving city with over 400,000 residents. After almost a decade of war, it is now completely devastated and virtually a ghost town. Yet, there are still residents who live among its ruins. Walk through the city and discover how the city's inhabitants live from day to day."

MarkO:
The irony about Grozny is that many Russian retirees were living there when Russia destroyed the city, killing their own elderly.......collateral damage?”

“And since the world has ignored Chechnya, Chechnya is doing it's best at getting the world to notice. Too bad terrorism works so well?

Also - is it OK for Russia to do what they've been doing because Russia is not a Muslim State?

Who here hasn't brough up as a point Husseins treatment of the Kurds?”

“That's a bit like saying, "I don't condone wife beating but I understand it.".”

“Wife beating is nothing like invading someone else's country.


Does Dubya beat his wife?”

“They are both bad things MarkO. Try and connect the dots a bit more.

O-------------O

If'n ya still don't get it I can work some graphs or pictures for ya.”

“You're the one who doesn't get it, Nigal.

Russia has the power to end hostilities by leaving Chechnya alone.

I do believe the terrorists must be punished, however.

Punishing the citizens of Chechnya only breeds more terrorism, grief and thoughts of revenge.

The Russians are doing something akin the notorious Phoenix Project.

They are rounding up young men and disappearing them in an effort to thin the ranks of fighting/able men.”

“You’re off on a tangent Mark. I was making an analogy as to BearMag’s justifications.

I just can’t believe you haven’t blamed all this on Bush yet. Nyuck nyuck!”

“That's a bit like saying, "I don't condone wife beating but I understand it."."
Nigal
02:10:11 PM
09/02/04

Wow. Uhhhhhhhhhhh. No it's not.


Unless the wife first cut the arm off the husband.”

“You know you are having a bad day when you are captured and held hostage and then the roof falls in.”

“Russia has the power to end hostilities by leaving Chechnya alone

Naive.”

“What a tragic situation. On CNN this morning I saw the ex-hostages (the ones that survived) running around in a daze, some wearing nothing but their underpants....poor kids. Very sad.”

““Wow. Uhhhhhhhhhhh. No it's not.


Unless the wife first cut the arm off the husband."

I just think that saying you don’t condone terrorism but you understand it, and then launch into a whole list of justifications for there actions is a bit like saying, “Some of my best friends are black.” And then start telling #&%!$ jokes.

I like straight talk with no disclaimers.”

“I think it is straight talk. I understand drug use but.......bad example.I understand war but don't condone it. How is that a disclaimer and/or not "straight"? It's understanding "reality", no?


I understand death and certainly don't condone that!

If you brutalize a childs family in front off him for a long period of time and the child "snaps" finaly, killing the aggressors. I would understand that. I might not condone the killing, however.

Everyone has pretty much condoned what the Russians have been doing to the Chechnyans. Now, the Chechnyans are responding in a way that gets World attention.

I understand that.”

“"Everyone has pretty much condoned what the Russians have been doing to the Chechnyans. Now, the Chechnyans are responding in a way that gets World attention."

I haven't seen anyone condoning what the Russians have done there. The only attention the Chechnyans are going to get is tanks rolling into their towns hunting terrorists...and rightly so if done properly.”

“Looking the other way is condoning.”

“I have read very little of this thread, but "looking the other way is condoning" seems like an serious oversimplification to me, unless you mean that only in a specific context.”

“"Looking the other way is condoning."

Even if we looked in that direction there was nothing to see. Unlike us who have CNN reporters in the invasion the Russians had a total media blackout. Only the Russians and the Chechens knew what was going on.

You seem very selective in who you choose to consider a victim BearMag. I have trouble reconciling your inconsistencies sometimes. You bemoan the poor Chechens and Sudanese yet when Israel has weekly terror attacks you simply say they should leave. WTH?”

“Why Fritz?

“It is so easy to deceive me, for I am glad to be deceived.”

- Alexander Pushkin, “Confession” (1826)


The armed conflict in Chechnya, now in its fourth year, is the most serious human rights crisis of the new decade in Europe. It has taken a disastrous toll on the civilian population and is now one of the greatest threats to stability and rule of law in Russia. Yet the international community’s response to it has been shameful and shortsighted.

The international community has a moral and political obligation to protect fundamental rights of people in and around Chechnya. It should with a unified voice be prevailing on the Russian government to halt forced disappearances, torture, and arbitrary detention, which Russian forces perpetrate on a daily basis. It should be compiling documentation about abuses into an authoritative, official record. It should be vigorously pressing for a credible accountability process for perpetrators of serious violations of international humanitarian law, and should think strategically about how to achieve this when the Russian court system fails to deliver justice. And it should stop Russia from forcing the return of displaced people to areas where their safety and well-being cannot be ensured.

But none of this has happened. The international community has instead chosen the path of self-deception, choosing to believe Russia’s claims that the situation in Chechnya is stabilizing, and so be spared of making tough decisions about what actions are necessary to stop flagrant abuses and secure the well-being of the people of the region.

The year 2003 saw no improvement in the international community’s disappointing response to the Chechen situation. All the international community could muster were well-intended statements of concern that were never reinforced with political, diplomatic, financial or other consequences.

Chechnya was placed on the agenda of the U.N. Commission on Human Rights, the highest human rights body within the U.N. system, but even there a resolution on Chechnya failed to pass. No government leader was willing to press for specific improvements during summits with Russian President Vladimir V. Putin. In late 2002 the Russian government closed the field office in Chechnya of the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE). And to date the Russian government had still not invited U.N. special rapporteurs on torture and extrajudicial executions to visit the region. And unlike in other armed conflicts in Europe, few foreign missions in Russia sought to gather first-hand information about continuing human rights abuses.

Many analysts attribute international diffidence with respect to abuses in Chechnya to changing international priorities after September 11, 2001, particularly the increasing focus on global security. But in fact the antecedents to inaction go much farther back, even to the early months of the war. The international community deserves credit for the strong and forthright criticism it mounted at that time, and for efforts to bring diplomatic pressure to bear to convince the government to rein in abusive troops and allow access to the region. But the effort for the most part was half-hearted and short-lived, ending soon after Vladimir Putin, who became acting president upon Boris Yeltsin’s resignation on December 31, 1999, was elected president in March 2000.

In the early months of the war, Russian forces razed Grozny in indiscriminate bombing, killing thousands, arrested thousands more, and summarily executed more than 130 detained persons in post-battle sweep operations. International criticism was sharp. The OSCE in 1999 insisted on a reaffirmation of its mandate in Chechnya, and in April 2000, the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe suspended Russia’s voting rights, restoring them only in January 2001. In late 1999, the EU adopted a decision to freeze certain technical assistance programs because of Chechnya and recommended that embassy personnel travel to the region and gather information on events there. But after Yeltsin’s resignation the EU toned down its rhetoric; the recommendation to send in diplomats was never implemented.

The limits the international community set for itself in this early period would set the parameters for years to come. Only the PACE recognized massacres of noncombatants as war crimes. International actors apparently were not prepared to follow through on the consequences that recognizing the massacres as war crimes would entail.

No government or multilateral institution was willing to consider linking financial benefits to improvements on the ground in Chechnya or the creation of a credible accountability process. The World Bank, which arguably had the most leverage and a mandate to withhold aid on human rights grounds, released U.S. $450 million in structural adjustment loan payments to Russia during the first year of the war, which went directly to the Russian government for unrestricted general budgetary spending.

Source:

http://hrw.org/wr2k4/7.htm#_Toc58744956”

“"The international community has a moral and political obligation to protect fundamental rights of people in and around Chechnya."

But not in places like Iraq...”

“I am woefully ignorant of the history and the current situation in Chechnya. My comment was explicity not about Chechnya. It was just a response to your definition of "condoning."

I should not have jumped in the middle of this conversation. You guys go ahead without me. :-)”

“It's an open discussion Fritz and you are more than welcome any time! :)”

“Jeezus, bearmagnet. The Russians were loudly condemned by France, Germany, the UK, and the U.S. for its actions in Chechnya. Until recently, the international perception was pretty much that Russia was the sole aggressor.

But then 9/11 happened, and the al Qaeda backed Chechen terrorists began to strike Russian civilians in earnest. The U.S. was no longer in a position to criticize Russia. France and Germany toned down their criticism because they felt they needed Russia's support to form a tri-lateral Pole to counter the U.S.'s new Bush Doctrine foreign policy.

Russia's going to introduce a resolution to the Security Council that condemns the Chechen terrorism and link it with al Qaeda. Chances are, it will allow Russia free reign to crack down on the terrorists in Chechnya - human rights be damned. But what will be interesting to see is if Russia will decide to take the war to Georgia. No Western power wants that to happen, unfortunately.”

“To condemn with inaction is to condone.

"You seem very selective in who you choose to consider a victim BearMag. I have trouble reconciling your inconsistencies sometimes. You bemoan the poor Chechens and Sudanese yet when Israel has weekly terror attacks you simply say they should leave. WTH?"
Nigal
09:02:59 AM
09/03/04

I understand why isreal is attacked. I don't condone it.

I didn't condone abuse against Kurds. The US is selective in who it protects. How are the Kurds doing in Turkey?”

“"Russia's going to introduce a resolution to the Security Council that condemns the Chechen terrorism and link it with al Qaeda."

This shouldn’t be a huge stretch either. Birch’s friend who fought in ‘ganistan and then Iraq related to him that they had fought Chechen militants in Afghanistan.”

“I understand why isreal is attacked. I don't condone it.

Ugh. Tell me then if you understand why Jordan is being attacked.”

“er, rather why Jordan isn't being attacked.”

“Even if we looked in that direction there was nothing to see. Unlike us who have CNN reporters in the invasion the Russians had a total media blackout. Only the Russians and the Chechens knew what was going on.
Nigal
09:02:59 AM
09/03/04

Same HRW article:

The international community was poorly positioned to respond effectively to these developments because it had acquiesced in Russia’s efforts to keep outside observers from being deployed to Chechnya. In late 2002 the Russian government refused to renew the mandate of the OSCE Assistance Group, effectively closing the organization’s important field presence in Chechnya. Since mid-2001, the Assistance Group had reported on human rights conditions, facilitated humanitarian relief, and promoted a peaceful resolution of the crisis in Chechnya. Negotiations over renewing the OSCE mandate collapsed after Russia insisted that the mission relinquish its human rights and political dimensions. To its credit, the OSCE refused. After the closure, the Dutch chairmanship pressed for a new OSCE presence with a human rights component, but did not receive support from other OSCE participating states necessary to make the effort successful”

“"I didn't condone abuse against Kurds. The US is selective in who it protects. How are the Kurds doing in Turkey?"

Sense when is the USA an international peace organization? Shouldn't the UN be asking the questions?”

“Isn't being attacked by who? terrorists for Jordans crimes of abusing refugees?”