Hostage Takers In Russia

“I was only responding to your accusation that I am being selective. Was it not right for me to point out that it is the US, and the World, who is being selective?

I gotta go. Can some other bleeding heart take over for me? ;)”

“Ok...can't help myself...

There are two alternatives to being selective about who we protect.

(1) Protect no one.
(2) Protect everyone.

Which one do you like, bearmagnet?

I don't like either of them. But I don't accept that being selective means we are "condoning" violence/abuses in all those cases where we do not intervene. There are practical limitations that make #2 impossible.”

“"The international community was poorly positioned to respond effectively to these developments because it had acquiesced in Russia’s efforts to keep outside observers from being deployed to Chechnya. In late 2002 the Russian government refused to renew the mandate of the OSCE Assistance Group, effectively closing the organization’s important field presence in Chechnya."

My point exactly. No one knew what was going on.

"Isn't being attacked by who? terrorists for Jordans crimes of abusing refugees?"

Jeesus man! Do some reading! Most of the 4 million odd 'refugees' aren't even Palis but are from other countries and migrated there. I love it when people victimize the Palis and make them sound like they are living in dirt holes. Many have the same living conditions as New Yorkers.”

“Fritz - all kinds of pressures can be applied and should be applied depending on the nature/severity of the action in question. Words are neither pressure nor action. Words alone, in fact, do condone and in fact is diplomatic SOP.

Nigal - I Only read words under pretty pictures. :)

I didn't suggest they were palis, did I? So jordan has a refugee problem. OK. Why does Jordan have a refugee problem”

“Just so you're sure to read this here's a pretty picture...



"I didn't suggest they were palis, did I?"

I thought you making a comparrison between Jordan and Israel.”

“Well that turned out pretty crappy. _{A hundred die in school siege shootout}

In a related story, Turkey is talking about sending troops into Iraq to fight separatist Kurds. No one could have imagined that one, huh?”

“At least it wasn't cause they gassed them this time V. It is horrible there were people who died but there was no way this was going to end well. I am glad the Russians didn't cave though.”

“Those are dead children.

How the hell can y'all discuss this as a political action?
You kill children, you need to die.”

“"How the hell can y'all discuss this as a political action?
You kill children, you need to die."

Easy SS. You know as well as anyone you can't get more than three posts into a thread before things drift away from the subject at hand. No one is disputing the fact these phucks deserved to die. Let's try not to make it sound as if we are trivializing the death of children here. I don’t care for that.”

“pretty. I didn't bring up Jordan. Mutt did, didn't he? And I'm still not sure why.

Never trivialize the killing of anyone, especially children. So when are we going to demand the execution of Russian soldiers responsible for killing children? And I'm not talking "accidents". I'm talking about cities they wiped out while knowing full well the rebels had left.

Since no one here complained before about Russian atrocities can I assume its OK for them to do it? They can wipe out whoever they want as long as they are "fighting" terrorism?

Or did someone complain?”

“"Since no one here complained before about Russian atrocities can I assume its OK for them to do it?"

Keerist Bear! No one here even denied what the Russians did to them. The subject at had is what the terrorists are doing to Russian children. Just because everyone doesn’t ride around on their Huffy like you do doesn’t mean we deny or condone something.

"They can wipe out whoever they want as long as they are "fighting" terrorism?"

Now you are just acting like an ass. No one is defending the actions of the Russians. Speaking out on the terrorists doesn't mean we take the Russian's side and actions. Don't try to put words in my mouth through assumptions.”

“Let's see. Russian forces go into Grozny and slaughter tens of thousands, including women and children because Chechnia wants to cede from Russia. Chechen rebels slaughter women and children in retaliation.

America gives Israel the means to slaughter women and children in Palestine. Palestinians kill women and children in Israel. Suadis kill 3,000 Americans. Americans kill Iraqis?

America keeps up the insanity but targets the wrong group.”

“I didn't bring up Jordan. Mutt did, didn't he? And I'm still not sure why.

Ask Tilt or Violin why. It's one issue they don't like talking about, as it sours their cheerleading for the terrorists.”

“I've never owned a Huffy.

And who's getting huffy here you, you, you jerk face!

Maybe I'm misreading y'all but everyone here seems to be judging & condemning the rebels with extreme prejudice.

What happend in Russia is tragic and those people should be brought to justice.

But since justice will not be balanced and Russia will and has gotten away with the same atrocities how can we demand retribution from one side of a very dirty and ugly war?

Maybe reality is hitting me in the face and I don't like it:

The losers only will be judged and punished.

And after that, everyone will forget their anger and live in peace and harmony for ever and ever.”

“Again, no one is disputing that Bear. You seem to be all fired up and wanting to argue about it. When no one argues the point with you, you try to put the Russian’s point on us so you can have someone to argue.

Stick yer head up yer arse and fight fer air if ya wanna fight. Poopyhead. :)”

“Nigal - I'm not picking a fight, you are! So double poopyhead to you!

I'm really trying to understand how everyone thinks even if I may not understand how I think...?????

Anyway, like I said, it seems some people are quick to judge certain actions because of a Pavlovian response to the word "terrorist".

Maybe I'm terroristed out? I'm lashbacking? I need more coffee....

Rosey - grozny is an excellent point and a forgotten atrocity.

Mutt - come on! Tell me! Obviously I'm ignorant here.”

“Once again America has taken to speaking out both sides of our mouth. We righteously travel halfway around the world to kick as in the war on terrorism yet at the same time we tell Israel they should sit on their hands and now we tell Russia they should hold talks with Chechen terrorists. How hypocritical can we get? Putin was right for blasting us when he told us to go find Osama and ask him to come to a neutral country and sit down with him and ask him what we need to do in order for his to stop trying to kill Americans.”

“Maybe if the Americans did mettle in this situation and gave assylum to a Chechen leader, this might have turned out differently?

Putin blasts U.S. on terror stance
From CNN Moscow Bureau Chief Jill Dougherty
Tuesday, September 7, 2004 Posted: 2:48 AM EDT (0648 GMT)


MOSCOW, Russia (CNN) -- Russian President Vladimir Putin has said that mid-level officials in the U.S. government were undermining his country's war on terrorism by supporting Chechen separatists, whom he compared to al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden.

Putin's charge, made in a meeting with a group of western foreign policy experts, came just days after hundreds of people, mostly children, died in the bloody end to the Beslan siege.

Putin also defended his government's decision to storm the school and said the hostage holders had begun shooting children out of boredom.

His comments did not suggest the final raid was triggered by the shooting of children.

In the wide-ranging meeting which lasted almost four hours, Putin said he likes President Bush, calling him a friendly, decent, predictable person.

But Putin said each time Russia complained to the Bush administration about meetings held between U.S. officials and Chechen separatist representatives, the U.S. response has been "we'll get back to you" or "we reserve the right to talk with anyone we want."

Putin blamed what he called a "Cold War mentality" on the part of some U.S. officials, but likened their demands that Russia negotiate with the Chechen separatists to the U.S. talking to al Qaeda.

These are not "freedom fighters," Putin said. "Would you talk with Osama Bin Laden?" he asked.

Putin said the Chechen separatists are trying to ignite ethnic tensions in the former Soviet Union and it could have severe repercussions.

"Osama Bin Laden attacked the United States saying he was doing it because of policies in the Middle East," Putin said. "Do you call him a freedom fighter?"

Putin's comments came a few weeks after the U.S. granted asylum to Ilias Akhmadov, the "foreign minister" of the Chechen separatist movement.

The Russian president also justified the rescue operation in Beslan, conceding that it took time to mobilize the operation.

He said Russian special forces stormed the school knowing they themselves were likely to be killed.

In one dramatic moment, Putin said Russian security forces overheard a disturbing walkie-talkie conversation between the terrorists:

"What are you doing? Why? I hear some noise. What's going on? I'm just in the middle of shooting some children."

"They were bored," Putin said. "So they shot children."

Putin said investigators determined the hostage takers included 10 fighters from "Arab" countries, along with others from the former Soviet Union and one person from North Ossetia where the hostage crisis unfolded.

Putin said the terrorists' goal was to ignite conflict between two local ethnic groups, the Ingush and the Ossetians.

In other comments, Putin said Russia would take its own approach to democratic reform.

"We'll do this at our own pace," he said. Democracy can mean different things in different countries, he said.

"In Russia, democracy is who shouts the loudest," he said. "In the U.S., it's who has the most money."

Asked about the U.S. presidential race, Putin was complimentary of President George W. Bush, saying he likes him. He is a friendly, decent, predictable person, but "it is not about personalities," Putin said.

He said polls in Russia show 7 percent support for Bush, and 25 percent for Democratic challenger John Kerry.”

“"He said polls in Russia show 7 percent support for Bush, and 25 percent for Democratic challenger John Kerry."

Damn! The pollsters must be bored as hell! I’m not sure if this should be viewed as an endorsement for Bush or Kerry? LOL!

On the other side of the coin here I don't think we can believe a damn thing the Russian admin claims or says regarding this situation. they have shown their dishonesty on many occasions now. But then again, we don't like it when Russia tries to stick it's nose in our business so why should we stick our's in their's? Let the UN deal with them.”