More great news about the economy

“From KYW Radio in Philly:

Employee Health Insurance Premiums Jump 11.2 Percent

A new study provides further evidence that employees' health insurance is getting more expensive.
It says family premiums in employer-sponsored health plans have jumped 11.2 percent. It's the fourth year of double-digit growth.


Researchers found there are at least five million fewer jobs providing health insurance this year compared to 2001.

This year, 63 percent of firms offer health benefits to workers -- down from 68 percent three years ago. The change is primarily driven by fewer small firms offering coverage.

The family premium for a "preferred provider" organization -- the most common type of insurance -- hit an average of $10,217 a year. This is the first time it broke the $10K barrier.

The study of 3,000 companies was conducted by the Kaiser Family Foundation and the Health Research and Educational Trust.”

“Thanks, Geo!”

“The first person to blame this on lack of TORT report is officially an idiot.”

“"The first person to blame this on lack of TORT report is officially an idiot."

Phaedrus
01:52:41 PM
09/09/04

You have another explanation Phaedrus. You think the insurance companies like losing customers?”

“Ding ding ding ding!


We have a winner!”

“I work for an HMO. I do have several other explanations.

Lawsuits cost less than one percent of total healthcare costs.

If you really want to get to the bottom of healthcare costs, you absolutely have to start with the pharmaceutical companies. After that, look at emergency room coverage in hospitals and the uninsured, and under it all, pay close attention to the governmental contracts with healthcare and drug companies.”

“According to the Department of Health and Human Services actuaries most recent report on malpractice premiums reported to the National Association of Insurance Commissioners that year were $9.6 billion, making malpractice costs about .62 percent of national health care expenditures. Malpractice costs rated only an eleven-word mention in the actuaries’ 13-page report

I found these in a quick review of my company's news releases database:

Levit et al, “Health Spending Rebound Continues in 2002,” 23 Health Affairs 147 (2004)

Statistical Compilation of Annual Statement Information, 2002, National Association of Insurance Commissioners (2003). ”

“"Lawsuits cost less than one percent of total healthcare costs."

I beleive the trial lawyers lobby and their front groups are now putting out .55% Phaedrus. I must admit the statistical jujitsu they go through to get to that number is amazing. BTW several of our clients are insurers and their real costs from malpractice insurance and lawsuits ranges from 15% on up.”

“15% of their yearly revenues?

What kind of quacks are you representing?!?

My last job involved an integrated HMO/Delivery system, and the total spent on malpractice insurance and malpractice-specific legal advice was well under 1% of the company's total revenues. In fact, it never made the list of the top 100 itemized expenditures on the financial reports for any year I worked there.

The providers were covered by the company who got group rates and had a staff of legal representatives, of course, but still!

Our biggest expenditures at this company this year are Hippaa compliance and Sarbanes-Oxley. And our subsidiary settled a huge lawsuit in Florida this year. That certainly doesn't happen every year.”

“Oops, sorry. If you're talking about the insurer's costs for malpractice, and they're offering malpractice insurance, then of course it's going to be higher than the total effect on healthcare costs. That's not the point.”

“I blame this on lack of TORT report.”

“Beauty!”

“You think the insurance companies like losing customers?"
Bison
01:58:12 PM
09/09/04

Last month, I gleefully watched a very nervous HMO rep. visit our contract negotiations, in which he showed how the school (and insurance company would save money by dropping spouses and the employee's children from the schools HC plan. According to HMO guy the school would save over $300,000 per year to "incent" people to drop family coverage and go to single coverage. It seems most of the insurance claims come from employee's family members (kids).


So the answer is YES, insurance companies like losing customers who use the insurance (heck, I even narrowed it down for you!) Insurance Companies make more money by providing insurance to folks who don't use the insurance. BRILLIANT!”

“Yeah, HMO's make more from single-subscriber members than from family-plans. The HMO still has the last say over the premiums they charge, though.

The market has made it better for them to keep the family coverage somewhat affordable, but if both parents work, they certainly want the "other" parent to have the kids on the "other plan"...”

“Hmmmm its insurance companies faults? What about smoking and obesity which cost billions annually to the health care system, that has no impact? How about the 3 biggest health care costs being lifetsyle related ,type 2 diabetes,heart disease, and smoking related illnesses. How about people start giving a crap about their own health. I find an inescapable irony when I hear smokers whine about health care costs. I would like to introduce my friend kettle to my friend black!

I hope rates continue to sky rocket, through the fricking roof. This will force insurers to adopt a system similar to auto insurance or home owners. You wanna get all kinds of speeding tikctes, fine pay more, a home in a flood plain, pay up, smoking, and obesity, feed the kitty.

Folks need look no further then the mirror to see the cause.”

“hey smokers, its < a href=http://www.berkeley.edu/news/berkeleyan/1998/0916/smoking.html> your fault.”

“Well that and the fact that Pill companies are spending an awful lot of money telling you to tell your doctor to prescribe you meds.

I think, if I were King, I would outlaw drug companies advertising. Prevention is worth a pound of cure, so is outlawing drug salesman taking up my Peds time trying to sell them the lastest ADHD drug on the market, that isn't even approved by the FDA (NPR is my source).

Something has to be done about healthcare, driving costs up isn't the answer, IMHO, sorry. That will only cost more American jobs, through cuts backs like we have seen and more outsourcing.”

“more good stuff”

“hmmm thats 189.7 billion so far, but lets blame pharmacia, to quote chuck d " nigga please!"”

“"Well that and the fact that Pill companies are spending an awful lot of money telling you to tell your doctor to prescribe you meds."

"pill companies" can say what they want, you dont have to listen.”

“So, do we do somthing about the culture we live in?

Yes.

Is there a one shot cure?

No.

Will it take an additude adjustment?

Yes.

Can it happen now?

Maybe.

What could be done?

I don't know, but at the very least, I try to do my part as much as I can.

What do we do about it, then?

Your guess is as good as mine....”

“""pill companies" can say what they want, you dont have to listen....."

You are correct. I don't listen, but it's not me that I worry about. I've got me wits about me.”

“"Something has to be done about healthcare, driving costs up isn't the answer, IMHO, sorry. That will only cost more American jobs, through cuts backs like we have seen and more outsourcing."

The thing that need doing is called taking care of ones body and stop waiting for miracle cures. Until people are responsible for their choices and lifestyle we'll have a healthcare crisis. We all pay for people to kill themsleves. If thats acceptable so be it.”

“"What do we do about it, then?"

We do the same as other insurers, one pays higher premium to offest the higher cost of ones irresponsible choices.”

“"The thing that need doing is called taking care of ones body and stop waiting for miracle cures. Until people are responsible for their choices and lifestyle we'll have a healthcare crisis...."

I completly agree. We have become more of a lazy culture, fast *whatever* that it is troubling. The creation of the automobile has done more to undermind our lives than it has helped. It has opened the flood gates for all kinds of bad habits.

Quick question: Would you be willing to pay an extra .10 a meal, that would go to off set health care costs for the *fatties*? I'd be willing to pay a quarter. Just like smokes. You pay for a bad habit and that money should go to off set costs on the rest of the area's society. Seems fair. *They* have gotten good care on my dime, why not have them give back if they are causing the situation?

What I don't like is where healthy people have to make up the cost for unhealthy people. It's a bad thing, as the healthy people out live the unhealthy and wind up paying more in the long run because of it.”

“"Would you be willing to pay an extra .10 a meal, that would go to off set health care costs for the *fatties*? "

H E L L no! I already pay the difference in my health care costs. I want THEM to pay. Its their choice to not take care of themselves, its their responsiblity.

Thats like me buying a gas hog and asking others to pay $.05 more per gallon to "offset" me inefficient car. Thats just plain wrong.

I wish I could recall the name of the company...Its a life insurance company out of indiana that does really well with low premiums and a sloind bottom line. They have a formula that bases your policy on your 5k run time. Thats what I am talking about.”

“Its loads easier to blame a big company or a system. But it all boils down to you and me. Its that simple.”

“I agree that folks should take better care of themselves but...
Where I live is an irresponsible choice?

How do you figure that?”

“"Its loads easier to blame a big company or a system. But it all boils down to you and me. Its that simple....."

So, is it wrong to have a *sin tax* on booze and cigs? I see nothing wrong with taxing bad habits that are a drag. Are people addicted to fast food and fats? Just because you are able to avoid tempation, doesn't mean everyone can. I can avoid smokes, yet I support upping the tax on cigs for another 5 bucks for all I care. Sometimes, the government can make change of habits through taxing, though that is not my first choice. I would love to have people take it upon themselves to do the right thing, but sometimes the people need to be shown what is good for them, if not through *enlightening programs*, which we have, than through the pocket bookj, That's why you are paying through the nose through your medical care. These people are not paying for thier bad habits, but you are. If there was some cost that would offset this, your medical care would decrease.”

“Birch:

I agree with your general issue that Americans, as whole, need to take a better look at what they are doing to themselves.

But a lot of that comes from a number of reasons. Two right off the bat are that they're uneducated about how to eat healthily and it's expensive to eat healthily.

They already have a tiered health system to some degrees. People already get rejected from insurance plans for being smokers.

What about high risk activities like owning a motorcycle or moutain climbing?”

“I agree that folks should take better care of themselves but...
Where I live is an irresponsible choice?

How do you figure that?"

If you chose to live in an area known to flood regularly you should pay more.You cost the insurance system (ie.me) more.

Laqtis, I am all for "sin" taxes, I am against a tax however on food in general to offest healthcare costs.I think we are arguning the smae point now, at least the responsiblity part.”

“"Two right off the bat are that they're uneducated about how to eat healthily and it's expensive to eat healthily."

Someones lack of education about food is my fault,its not like there is a lack of quality info available. Regarding cost, when I made 7.50 and hour and sass made 7.00 we ate healthy, we paid rent two car payments and actually had money for cigarettes (18 months without so far) we shopped at the discount market and bought older slightly bruised produce.It has to be a priority.


"hat about high risk activities like owning a motorcycle or moutain climbing" I seriously doubt that these activities have the impact onthe healthcare system that smoking and obesity do, though I will happily read info to the contrary.”

“Yes we are, birch. My thing is that the sin tax should be on fast food, pure and simple. It's the worst offender. Start there and the others will fall. I'm not suggesting that we tax everything, that's plain silly. Tax the bad stuff.

Here's a personal example to back up rosey's point:

I'm driving the Illnois turnpike, stop for a wiz at one of those *centers*. Afterwards, I looking for something to drink and I go to the vending machine. Side by side, one has water, one has pop. The one that has water is offering it up for .25 more than than the pop machine! WTF! It's cheaper to get a coke than it is water.

Granted, places around us that offer *good food*, like Whole Foods are few and therefore higher in price, but it is cheaper to eat *poorly* than healthy. I've been looking, and we're changing our diet, but now that we have only one income, we have to make choices. Plus, is it fair that I through a McDonalds cheese burger down both kids throat, just so I can get lunch in them before I go to school and drop them off at teh sitters? No, it isn't and I feel like a heel for it.

Our culture is such that we live so fast, need stuff so fast and demand it fast, that we don;t take time to realize that we will be leaving to most presevered bodies this planet has seen since the Egyptians. They will thanks us for it in the future, but I don't like it now and I'm trying to change that for ourselves.”

“"I'm driving the Illnois turnpike, stop for a wiz at one of those *centers*. Afterwards, I looking for something to drink and I go to the vending machine. Side by side, one has water, one has pop. The one that has water is offering it up for .25 more than than the pop machine! WTF! It's cheaper to get a coke than it is water"

Bring a jug of water from home and pack a sandwhich.We do.

I am not suggesting shopping at boutique stores like "whole foods". I can get 6 plastic bags of good produce for $30 or less GAURANTEED anytime of the year, you have to shop.

Making good choices isnt always quick or convenient, neither is obesity,lung cancer or diabetes, you chose your poison I'll chose my cure.”

“"Bring a jug of water from home and pack a sandwhich.We do......"

And so do I. Problem with your solution is that after about 10 hours driving in one day, the jug gets a little warm in a van with no AC and 85 degrees outside. But enough of that.

It seems that you have a mission, so tear it up and more power to ya. Preach on, I'm standing right behind ya applauding for ya!”

“I dont have a mission in any way shape or form. I am stating the obvious. I could give a rip what anyone does, just dont ask me to pay for it. I am just fed up with folks shirking their responsibiliy to their health. If it was isolated to them so be it. Its not.

And I agree hot water sucks, thats why I use a cooler or freeze half the nalgene first.”

“Paying more is not what I object to. I object to calling it an irresponsible choice. There is nothing irresponsible about it. Weather and geology happens everywhere.”

“"I object to calling it an irresponsible choice. There is nothing irresponsible about it....."

Is this something I addressed or.....?

I'm lost now.”

“HPM, then we disgaree. In some areas there is a lot more " weather and geolgy" going on then others, prudence and caution ought to apply.”

“People who consume butter should be outright shot!”

“Hey Birch! I eat healthier now. I lost over thirty pounds. I don't get heartburn anymore. My triglycerides are down to a normal level. I feel better. But, if I remember correctly, when I was going on this diet, all you did was ride me into the ground about what a kook Atkins was. Are you on some sort of self--righteous tear on the general population?

I apologize if I am sounding callous, but you said yourself that you were smokers and you made your sacrifices. One of the examples you cited was about the produce you bought. Now, at the time, you hadn't licked your problem yet. You cut into your food budget before you ditched the cancer sticks, right?

My point is, that it takes a certain amount of discipline to to get around to overcoming these shortcomings. You know, as well as I, that it is unrealistic to expect the population as a whole to be able to accomplish this. So, the blanket statements you make about curing the problem is not very attuned to reality, is it. I mean, advertisers and the ideas that are hurled towards the public every day makes it look so easy (and VERY appealing looking) for people to not eat right.”

“Birch, one thing to consider is that HMO's set prices on company premiums at contract time based on a number of factors including the total claims for that company over the last contract period. Companies who offer benefits, such as company exercize facilities or reimbursed gym memberships, have been shown to reduce their portion of health insurance premiums by enough to make the reimbursements worthwhile. So, in that regard, your ideas are already being enacted on a macro scale.

You're absolutely right about the overall health of Americans being a problem for healthcare prices, and it's something I didn't mention. In fact, it could be one of the largest factors in rising healthcare prices. It isn't, however, the only one, and the factors I mentioned also cause a good deal of cost increase, and can't be overlooked. My point was originally that these are larger factors than malpractice lawsuits.

As for charging individuals a higher premium based on individual health: I think it's a good idea in theory, but would lead to huge inequalities in health coverage for reasons people have no control over. For instance, a person with a congenital heart problem would be much more expensive to insure than a thirty-pound overweight person. The first person had no choice in his condition, but would be under a bigger financial burden to get healthcare, and would need it more. If you're suggesting a general age/sex delineation, it already happens below the HMO level. The HMO pays providers capitation based on the age and sex of the subscriber. For instance, my capitation rate to my primary care physician is 15 dollars a month. A 60-year-old man's capitation rate is 35 dollars. Billing is done based on services provided, but doctors visits are payed from capitation and copayments.

One way the healthcare system has of insuring those who use more pay more is to increase copayments, but this has the undesirable effect of dissuading people from seeking medical help for problems until they become larger and more costly to treat.

It's a complex issue, and there aren't any simple solutions, but I don't think charging individuals based on health would ever work. The market competition wouldn't allow it to happen.”

“My take on healthy living:

Hike as much as you possibly can and eat whatever the hell you want. Works for me.”

“Fat smokers, unite!”

“I agree, bison! You can eat allthe salts and fats ya want on the trail! In fact you need it.

Phed - One thing that troubles me and only because I have seen it happen on a small scale, is people going without healthcare because it's too expensive and using the emergency room for health care instead! This is a huge drag on the ER with petty items. Some of these people in trn don't even pay thier bills, yet the Hospital cannot turn them away. That's interesting to say the least.”

“Yes. I mentioned that above.

We HAVE a national healthcare plan through emergency room visits already, and we all pay the costs. It seems to me that if we actively managed an insurance for the uninsured, we could make it more efficient, in the same way the government manages TRICare for the military.

Currently, a hospital absorbs the costs of uninsured ER visits and passes the costs on to the insured and self-payers, along with collection costs, revenue loss, and tax write-offs. We pay a lot more for that uninsured ER visit than we would with a national healthcare plan.”

“All this talk of good health has motovated me to cook up a batch of fried tomatos!

Yummm!”

“George Bush looks better in cowboy boots, so stick that in your silly economic concerns!”

“treebeard...

"But, if I remember correctly, when I was going on this diet, all you did was ride me into the ground about what a kook Atkins was" To quote the doctor who was interviewed for the current issue of Nat'l Geographic in the article "the heavy cost of fat"...He said "you can lose weight by taking amphetamines and smoking, it doesnt make it healthy". I didnt ride you, I rode atkins who is and was a kook. Sorry man but virtually the entire US medical community has said his plan is flawed I get my info from their sources. BTW ketosis is the state that causes weight lose with atkins ketosis is a state of toxicity as per the doc in Nat'l Geo. I know weight lose is possible with that plan, after 6 months the vast majority gain it back because its such an abnormal diet.Good luck and dont take attacks on atkins as attacks on you. Intersting that Atkins wouldnt allow his corpse to be autopsyd. I wonder what his arteries were like.


"but you said yourself that you were smokers and you made your sacrifices. One of the examples you cited was about the produce you bought. Now, at the time, you hadn't licked your problem yet. You cut into your food budget before you ditched the cancer sticks, right?" Never cut into the food budget to buy smokes, I never went hungry. I had 6% bodyfat and was fit as a fiddle(other then smoking obviously).My smoking is actually a good example about an individual making the choice to do the proper and responsible thing. If I am a wrong in that, so be it. And yes in all fairness I should have been at a higher rate of insurance then. BUT i had no insurance then so its kind of a non-issue. For what its worth, I never used the word "sacrifice" (putting words in my wouth is a no-no) I still shop the same market.

"You know, as well as I, that it is unrealistic to expect the population as a whole to be able to accomplish this. So, the blanket statements you make about curing the problem is not very attuned to reality, is it. I mean, advertisers and the ideas that are hurled towards the public every day makes it look so easy (and VERY appealing looking) for people to not eat right.""

What a load of malarky. Since its hard people can make the resoponsible choice? What are we, 3 year olds? For goodness sake if people are influenced by commercials to eat crap from McD's then why cant they be influenced to eat right by other adds. You cant have it both ways. To claim its " unrealistic to expect the population as a whole to be able to accomplish this." Is such a cop out. Since its hard we shouldnt quit smoking. My goodness, lets just all give up and eat like crap and smoke and drink and the like its just to hard not too. I geuss self discipline is dead. So be it. Just cause you have no faith that people cant change doesnt mean I dont, crickey, you lost weight you are no different then anyone else right?

"So, the blanket statements you make about curing the problem is not very attuned to reality, is it"

Reality cahnges. In 1970 the average american at just over 1500lbs of food annually. Now its over 1700lbs (source, nat'l geo). It went up it can go down. If people take charge of their lives it'll happen. Or people will continue being gluttonous and lazy and not care about their health, they will reap what they sow. Just As I might get lung cancer from 10 years of smoking, it'll be my fault and If that affects my insurance I have no one to blame but me.


This attitude about this being too hard is just sickening. My 3 1/2 year has more discipline when it comes to eating then many adults. Stop shoveling food into your pie hole when you are full. Have we become a nation of non-disciplined children?”