More great news about the economy

“Phaerdus, great points. I agree basing a system of paying based on health would be very hard, but it could be done. Genetic factors would have to be weighed in, fortunately science makes consistent breaks throughs in this area so its far more attainable then ever. No one smokes because of genes. Perhaps start small scale with smokers on a tiered system. Say that employer "a" pays $100 per month per employee which is their base plan, smokers could be charged an additional % fee to offest their lifestyle choices and associated costs, that seems simple enough to start. And yes people would lie about smoking, fortunately a simple swab test to the cheek is a give away every time.

I brought up health because its really the only thing an individual can do. If I take better care of myself odds are good I will be less of a burden on the system,plus If I have a high co-pay I wont be making as many trips to the doc which saves me money in the long run, its a two fold win. Extrapolate (i lOve that word LOL) theses healthy choices to 10, then 100,1000 etc and it adds up.
I agree drug costs are absurd, NPR had a few great programs on the subject today. But we wouldnt need many of these drugs if we werent so unhealthy.

I am not trying to over simplify the issue. If it were easy, it would be done. I am suggesting that a huge burden would be lifted if people exhibited a bit of self restraint.”

“It's a pretty simple solution to blame people for eating more. It's also a solution that ignores the vast array of human experience, education, culture and genetics.

Labelling people today as somehow weaker or lazier than they were thirty years ago is hardy convincing. Obviously there's a cultural and marketing and education barrier to people making healthier choices - it's not all about people being lazy. That's a huge oversimplification.”

“I do, however agree with you about smoking. We're both ex-smokers and know it can be done.

Also, the education about the risks of smoking are adequate that I hardly believe anyone is ignorant of them.”

“"Also, the education about the risks of smoking are adequate that I hardly believe anyone is ignorant of them"

Apply the same effort to over eating.

"Obviously there's a cultural and marketing and education barrier to people making healthier choices "

Within the last 11 years the federal government mandated that all food products be labled with all caloric and nutritional info. We arent at a lose of data. I dont think that there is any "obvious" indication of a lack of education on health. Its front page news quite often. Schools teach nutrition in mandatory junior high cooking class.

Yes marketing is powerful. How about turning off the TV and going for a walk. No marketing,more excercise. Its not hard.

"I do, however agree with you about smoking. We're both ex-smokers and know it can be done"

The same applies to eating well, It may be a challenge at first but with time its easier, just like quitting smoking. It takes the same self-discipline to do both.”

“I'd like to see the education of advantages of healthy eating on par with the education of the dangers of smoking. I'm pretty sure we're not at that point yet.

If we were, McDonalds would have a warning label on Big Macs, and the Sugar lobby would be answering questions before congress.

Another thing about food is that we can't quit cold turkey like we can with smoking, so the tempatation to overeat and underexercize is always there.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think you're wrong about the effects of a healthier lifestyle. I just don't believe that as much of the blame falls on laziness as you believe.

Europeans are just as lazy as Americans, but much thinner.”

“"It's a pretty simple solution to blame people for eating more. It's also a solution that ignores the vast array of human experience, education, culture and genetics."

an increase in annual food consumption of over 200lbs occurs in 34 year. amercicans are fatter then ever (97 million are overweighht), yet the two are unrelated? I would say there is not only a correlation but a direct causation. You only get fat by eating more then you burn, an extra 200 lbs of food annually will probably braoden the waistyline a hair.”

“Sure, but the reasons for eating more aren't solely to be blamed on laziness and gluttony.”

“European fast food (according to readers digest a few months back) establishments serve smaller servings.

Its a combo of lazy and over eating.”

“"Sure, but the reasons for eating more aren't solely to be blamed on laziness and gluttony"

No? Who is forcing people to eat 200lbs more a year?”

“Here's where we'll just part ways amicably.

I've been saying that individuals, given the proper education and environment will make better food choices.

You insist that people should make better choices while shrugging off every indication of a larger problem. It's all the individual's fault.

I just can't see how people have changed so much over the last thrity years that they became so lazy and gluttonous, so I'll believe there is a larger issue at hand, and you can believe that it's no one's fault but the fatties.

Gotta run.”

“Fat bottom girls make the rockin` world go 'round!

Hey, is it always just one thing? No, but always a combo of things that make a problem. False dichotomy on any issue is poor. A situation is not always one way or another.”

“"Hey, is it always just one thing? No, but always a combo of things that make a problem. False dichotomy on any issue is poor. A situation is not always one way or another"

I never said it was one solitary thing. If individuals make responsible choices as a group things happen, a great example is voting.

You or I cant change corporate ins policy, we can change ourselves.”

“"You insist that people should make better choices while shrugging off every indication of a larger problem. It's all the individual's fault."

Show where I specifically "shrugged off" any data to support a larger problem. You gave your opinion. I gave sources.”

“Phaedrus, heres some CDC info about poor eating habits and sedentary(lazy) lifestyles. The quote is from...

http://www.cdc.gov/pcd/issues/2004/jul/04_0043.htm

"the past 20 years, the combination of decreased physical activity and unhealthful eating has resulted in a doubling of the percentage of overweight children and adolescents. Recent reports indicate that five of every eight children aged nine to 13 do not participate in any organized physical activity during their non-school hours, and almost one fourth do not engage in any free-time physical activity (2). More than one in seven children aged six to 19 years are overweight (3), and type 2 diabetes, a disease traditionally restricted to adults, has been reported among adolescents (4)."”

“From http:www.adcouncil.org/campaigns/healthy_lifestyles/

"An unprecedented majority of American adults (64%) are overweight or obese due to sedentary lifestyles and unhealthy diet and exercise habits"

" just can't see how people have changed so much over the last thrity years that they became so lazy and gluttonous, so I'll believe there is a larger issue at hand"

The CDC can sees the pattern even if you cant.

"Here's where we'll just part ways amicably" Adios.”

“since europe was mentioned...

http://www/eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2002-04/ajoc-dpa041902.php

"Changes in physical activity levels over time had the strongest relationship with increasing BMI in the cohort. An increasing intensity level of physical activity during work and leisure time was inversely associated with obesity. The authors conclude that a physically active lifestyle together with abstention from smoking, moderate alcohol consumption, and a variety of healthy foods provide the greatest likelihood of avoiding obesity. "”

“Birch: You're misrepresenting my point.

My contention is not that people have not gotten less healthy from eating more and exercizing less. That is blindingly obvious, and thanks for giving data supporting that fact. My contention is that there is a root cause (or several) that you are ignoring, including education, marketing, availability, profitability, and the manufacturing of food in the US.

Sure, the ultimate responsibility for a person's health falls on that person, but when there is an overwhelming trend, such as you have so aptly demonstrated, it points to a pervasive societal problem that should be addressed instead of simply blaming individuals for being fat.

We, for instance, as a nation, do not allow tobacco companies to target advertisements at children. We do, however, allow McDonalds to do so, and we're surprised that we're raising a nation of non-smoking fatties? Sure parents have a good deal of choice in the foods their children eat, but when the parent fails, it becomes society's problem in the realm of healthcare.

We also allow government to be ruled by food lobbies, such as the sugar lobby, and influence governmental standards to such a degree as to be ridiculous (see my recent posts in "an allegory of corporate science"). This affects what children are served at school cafeterias, how products are labelled and marketed, and ultimately, helps shape the unwashed mass of public opinion on what foods are healthy.

Simply blaming individuals for an obvious trend is folly.”

“In other words: The people are not what's changed in the last thirty years.”

“"In other words: The people are not what's changed in the last thirty years."

We haven't gotten fatter and lazier in the passed 30 years? Jeezus, look around man. Go look at the children in schools. When I went to school even just 20 years ago we had a few kids who were fat but I'd say it's at least 1/3 now.”

“Ya know what Birch?
I'd bet if we sat down and talked about it we could both describe several areas that both of us would consider absolutely irresponsible to build on.

As far as the health discussion it seems to me that over the years more and more not less information has become available regarding health, nutrition and exercise. I truely fail to see how it can be argued that people don't know what to do or how to find out how to keep healthy.

It seems to me that the real issue is the expendature of effort. Some folks just won't expend the effort or have a rough time maintaining the disipline to get in shape.”

“I, for one, am tired of picking up the tab for fat people who don't excersize because they allegedly have to work two and three jobs to survive. Find the time, fat-a$$, I'm tired of paying for your laziness!”

“The last 4 years have produced the greatest economy, here in the good ole' USA, in the history of the world.”

“Violin, that you?”

“I don't think so, Mark-O. V can do better than that...”

“We haven't gotten fatter and lazier in the passed 30 years? Jeezus, look around man. Go look at the children in schools. When I went to school even just 20 years ago we had a few kids who were fat but I'd say it's at least 1/3 now."
Nigal
08:26:10 AM
09/13/04

And you believe it's the quality of the people that has changed, and not the environment around them?”

“As far as the health discussion it seems to me that over the years more and more not less information has become available regarding health, nutrition and exercise. I truely fail to see how it can be argued that people don't know what to do or how to find out how to keep healthy.


It's matter of the priority that this type of information is given in comparison to the push toward cheaper, faster, tastier. I doubt most people don't KNOW that fast food is bad for them, I just don't think people are given a proper frame of reference for that.”

“Kill your television!”

“"And you believe it's the quality of the people that has changed, and not the environment around them?"

You’ll need to quantify what you mean for me Phaed. What do you mean by environment? I’m not trying to be birch’s little cheerleader here but he really did establish statistically the main drains and causes for health problems here and abroad.

I don't feel healthy people should have to pay for the people who choose to be unhealthy any more than I feel good drivers should have to pay for the crappy driver's mistakes.”

“Rosey has the answer.”

“You’ll need to quantify what you mean for me Phaed. What do you mean by environment? I’m not trying to be birch’s little cheerleader here but he really did establish statistically the main drains and causes for health problems here and abroad.


Yes, and I'm looking for the reasons that those behaviors that are causing those health problems are so much more common.

As I understand it, he's saying it's because people have changed. I'm saying something else has changed and that the people are reacting to it in the same fashion as they would have if it had changed 30 years ago.

So my question to you is: Do you think that people have changed in their basic nature in regard to exercize and food over the last 30 years or has something changed around us that has spurred the change in normal people?”

“I have a few thoughts on this that I'll share as soon as I get back. I'm going to drive my car accross the street to get a pack of smokes and a couple of candy bars.”

“Don't forget the supersized milkshake from the drive-through on your way back.”

“I sure hope you have one of those motorized wheelchairs to get you to your car, Violin.”

““So my question to you is: Do you think that people have changed in their basic nature in regard to exercize and food over the last 30 years or has something changed around us that has spurred the change in normal people?"

Please keep in mind I’m giving my opinion and there are no forthcoming links, cut and pastes or in depth study to come. I think it is the changes that have occurred in these areas:

Increase in eating out:

There is a hundred restaurants in nearly every town in America these days it seems. You could count on one hand the restraints that actually serve good, healthy food. This also is effected by our time constraints too. Don’t have time to cook a good, healthy meal at home? Hey, order in.

Disregard for nutritional knowledge:

We all know that food from the restaurants is crap. Can anyone actually claim they don’t know this? Even with the advances we have made in the knowledge of nutrition we STILL make the bad choices. Why?

Decrease in parent’s proper handling of a child’s nutrition:

This is also effected by time constraints. It’s much faster and easier to make the kids hot dogs and mac and cheese than it is a balanced meal. And it’s even easier to grab a happy meal. Kids pick up eating habits so easily. Of all the families I know, and I know a lot, birch and sass get highest marks for their handling of their child’s diet. They are the only ones I know who do it properly.

Time constraint’s effects on eating healthy:

This is also effected by our seemingly increased laziness.

All of the above can be changed or rectified by the person. They represent choices, not conditions that can not be overcome.

BTW- I am guilty of nearly all of the above.”

“Good points.

So, my opinions dovetail with yours in that I believe that the odds are stacked against people today, and that the same people with the same work ethic who, 30 years ago would have been thin, are fat in today's society.

2 family incomes are necessary for a number of families to keep afloat, leaving less time for all the things we discussed. Corporate lobbies are pushing for nutritional recommendations that have little to do with nutrition and a lot to do with profit. Marketing focuses on ease, convenience and sasisfaction with (usually) little regard for nutrition. Children become ingrained with the ideas of the fast food culture.

Hence, with all that, I find it just a little over-simplistic to lay all the blame of an individual's overweight status on his laziness.

I think America will wake up from this in time, but in the meantime, I don't think the best plan is to penalize those who have fallen into unhealthiness. I think the best plan is to encourage a shift in the way we look at food and the way we market and manufacture it.”

“Our president has a plan to help reduce fat kids in America. His plan calls for lower wages, if any, for the kids' parents. Then, the parent won't be able to buy so much food, and the kid will start losing weight. The plan has already been enacted, and if reelected, GWB guarantees that 90% of American children will have body fat of less than 2%.

Bush has answers, Bush/Cheney 2004!”

“We may agree that these are the reasons but you missed where I said that we are able to overcome these things. There is a big differnece between reasons and excusses. Millions of people keep themselves healthy every year. And this is no reason why the healthy should have to foot the bill for the unhealthy...myself included.”

“Yeah, what Nigal said! Why should we bail out the health problems of fat kids when there are thousands of American companies that could use that extra tax money to capitalize on corporate tax loopholes, so the skinny shareholders can make more money (which they won't spend on McDonald's, unless they own stock in it of course).”

“"It seems to me that the real issue is the expendature of effort. Some folks just won't expend the effort or have a rough time maintaining the disipline to get in shape."

HPM, I agree with you entirely here. Though you were a touch gentler with the phrase "expendature of effort" vs my term lazy...”

“Phaedrus,

You've mentioned all of the cultural influences as reasons/excuse for the problem with our broadening waistline. But all of your theories beg the question, what about me?

Regardless of the power of marketing dont we all have a responsiblity to ourselves to take take of our bodies? Yes Many people work long hours to make ends meet,I am not talking running marathons here. A 30 min walk 5 days a week reduces heartattack risks by 60%. It is undeniable that Americans eat more and excercise less then we did 20-30 years ago. Its worth noting that I am not talking about only obesity, type 2 diabetes is one of the fastest growing diseases same with heart disease, one may appear "healthy" but may be rotting form the inside out.I have giving very reliable sources to support this.

The food pyramid is a great example of eating. Its readily available info (all over the walls of home ec. rooms in our schools) It stresses a balanced diet limiting the intake of simple sugars,fats and oils. Its not some conspiracy cooked cooked up by the sugar industry,or anyone else.

I am not in any way trying to over-simplify the issue. But no one puts food in my mouth but me. Sure I love french fries and candyand pop, but I know these things will contribute to poor health so I avoid them. Marketers want me to buy McD's, it doesnt mean I have too. I have the same control over my body that everyone else does, its about how I use it. The only ones who can claim and sort of "victim status" (which you imply in your phrase "fall into unhealthyness" as if it happened to them like rain) are kids whose parents feed em crap.

I would love to see McD's regulated in terms of nutrition but untill them its up to me to take of myself, thats my job.

I can blame others, but when my triglycerides break 600 and my bodyfat is %40 I have no one to blame but me.”

“Agreed, Birch. We probably live similar lifesyles in that regard, but not everyone is you. Not everyone has the benefit of common sense, and that's been a fact as long as there have been humans on the planet. In the US, the average IQ is between 90 and 110.

Penalizing people for their inability to deal with a culture that is slanted toward their failure is the wrong way to go about it, IMO.”

“"Penalizing people for their inability to deal with a culture that is slanted toward their failure is the wrong way to go about it, IMO."

Are you actually suggesting that people are too stupid to know proper nutrition? Having spent years working with people who have the comprehension level of a three year old I have a much higher expectation and view of people. It doesn’t take a whole lot of brains to know that a dinner consisting of veggie- veggie-grain-meat-fruit is better than a super sized value meal.”

“Okay, you're right. They're really smart, but lazier than hell, and eat like swine. Devious fukkers.

We should withhold medical care from them if they don't have enough money to pay for it, and when they end up in the ER and we end up paying more for it than we would have the other way, we can all get really mad at the fat, brilliant, lazy bastards and start a national campaign to kill fat people for the good of the country. Anyone you meet who looks like he might be more than 30 pounds overweight should be field-dressed and fed to the pigs that we use to make ham for Egg Mcmuffins for the rest of us skinny, healthy types. I have seen the future and it is LEAN.”

“I mean, we can all agree that obesity is a national edidemic.

So where are the national education campaigns? Nutrition classes are not even really a part of grade school ciriculum anymore. Schools, at least in Cali, have eliminated almost all gym and recess. Just repeating the tired old food pyramid doesn't work anymore. There are too many temptations for young children and for me, this is where the education would start.”

“My daughter's school has vending machines with all sorts of nutritious sugar products, carbs and all that good sh_t!!!”

“You were doing real good there Phead. You got about three responses to me without condescension but then ya went and blew it.

Smooth move Ex-Lax.

LOL!”

“IN some schools they even serve Burger King and PIzza Slut.”

“That's just wrong. Of all the places. Soda pop is a huge contributor too. Just one pop a day will put 17 pounds a year on your ass.”

“Sorry, nigal, I honestly wasn't trying to be condescending. I was trying to be funny.

The point of the condescending/funny post is to point out that health insurance is not car insurance. We can live without a car.

We end up paying more for those people who don't have insurance and access healthcare through ER visits than we do by having obese people on healthplans on equal footing with the non-obese.

IMO, nutritional campaigning and regulation would go a lot farther toward easing the obesity epidemic than charging more for health insurance to fat people.”

“So in your opinion is it unfair for those who don't try to be healthier and do things they know can cause increased healthcare cost to have to pay more? Take life insurance for example, the costs for a 40 year old smoker are more than a 40 year old non-smoker.”