Health Savings Account

“Anyone familiar with the new (to me anyways) Health Savings Account (HSA). The company I work for is looking into that type of plan. The company is looking for ways to cut the expense of our current health plan as it went up again.
Does anyone use the HSA, is it worth it, do you really save money by being well and not sick. How does it work for those unexpected accidents or illnesses that pop-up.”

“This will be new for Feds, too. Next open season is coming up and the first-ever HSAs will be offered. No details yet.

Many "experts" argue that HSAs attract the younger/healthier into them, leaving the older/sicker for the standard plans, raising costs in them. Guess we'll find out when this upcoming open season is over.”

“I've used Medical Savings Accounts before and those were a good deal - gave you a way to fund deductibles and non-covered med expense with pre-tax dollars.

I don't know about HSAs and if they will be similar or not.”

“I wish I had access to a HAS. One of the problems with our health care system is that the consumer (patient) is to far removed from the payment of the cost and thus the buying decision. The free market checks on high cost just don’t appear to be working in the health care market. This is one way to put that decision directly in the hands of the consumer. It will be good for all if these become widely used. As for the “leaving the older/sicker for the standard plans, raising costs in them”, if it is a group plan they are in, as it is now these are the people raising the costs for everyone else. In the name of some fairness why should those with good health habits pay more so those with bad habits can pay less. It is just dishonest to pretend to feel that its bad to raise the costs for one party when the current system raises the costs for the other party. Bad luck, not habits, is what brings bad health on some and that is what insurance is suppose to be for. So give me an HAS for the small stuff and a major medical plan in a group for people that try to care for their health. I am tired of having little choice to but to be in a health insurance group with the smokers and indolence. Why should I suffer any of the results of the habits that are their choice.”

“It would appear that the major difference between the HSA and the FSA (Flexible Savings Account) is that HSA allow you to carry over savings from plan year to plan year. FSA is a use it or lose it proposition. FSA is also good for child care expenses whereas HSA would not.

It sounds' like a good deal to me. Anytime you can pay for something with pre-tax dollars, it makes your dollar go further.”

“if HSA are in fact very similar to FSA ( i called it MSA above ) then by all means its a good, great deal.

Being able to carry over makes it even better (like rollover minutes with a cell phone plan).”

“here is an article from the Memphis Business Journal on HSA

EXCLUSIVE REPORTS
From the September 3, 2004 print edition
Major carriers will gauge interest in new HSA plans
Scott Shepard
As health insurance season approaches, Memphis insurance brokers are preparing for an onslaught of sales pitches, but these are coming from insurance carriers anxious to get their new consumer-driven products in front of business owners.


The new item this year is the Health Savings Account, which is generating the most chatter, but HSAs join three other tax-preferred ways to pay health expenses. HSAs came into existence with the Medicare bill earlier this year, but carriers have been waiting for the IRS to issue guidelines.

HSAs get the enthusiasm because they function like a health care IRA: unspent money in the account rolls over year-to-year, invested in a mutual fund. 10 years from now, you may get a tax-free facelift or pay a penalty and spend the money on a non-health purchase -- unless your doctor prescribes two weeks in Cancun.

Humana, Inc., expects wide adoption of HSAs based on the experience with Health Reimbursement Accounts. Those use employer money only, but subscribers don't have to lay out cash for co-pays and other expenses. They just whip out their Humana Access debit card, which is serviced by Bank of America. The plans are designed to get people involved in managing their own care.

"On average, consumers use about 70% of the account and the rest rolls over year-to-year," says Beth Bierbower, vice president of product innovation at Humana. "They do a nice job of engaging consumers; 82% of our own associates renew their HRA and they become very savvy about drug costs and quality measures."

Humana will begin quoting prices for HSAs Dec. 1, for plans that become effective Jan. 1, says Evans Looney, market leader for Tennessee. The HSA will also have Humana's debit card; software is heavily programmed to prevent unauthorized purchases.

United Healthcare of Tennessee, Inc., will begin quoting its HSA plan in October, for a Jan. 1 effective date for fully insured groups. The company is already quoting self-funded plans, which are usually larger employers. United a year ago acquired Golden Rule Insurance Co., which specializes in individual coverage.

"They already bring the experience of managing roughly 150,000 HSA members, and with that we gain knowledge around benefit design, regulatory issues, administration and management," says Brian Shipp, president and CEO of the Arkansas and Tennessee Division of United.

To handle debit transactions and establish mutual fund relationships, United chartered its own in-house bank, Exante Federal Bank, in 2003. Cigna has farmed those roles out to JP Morgan, while Blue Cross Blue Shield of Tennessee, Inc., has partnered with Wells Fargo.

All the carriers expect a traditional rollout, with early adopters leading the way in 2005 and blazing a trail others will follow.


"We'll offer HSA qualified plans as a dual offering," Shipp says. "Whatever benefit options are available, an employer can offer an HSA plan next to it. I can understand broker wariness. They haven't seen the plans or the pricing."


United will begin training seminars in October for independent brokers so they're prepared to explain and demonstrate the product to their clients.

All these plans rely on Internet access and a degree of sophistication in working online. There are so many numbers and benefits to compare that HSAs would not have been possible 10 years ago. Carriers offer detailed ways to compare different plans side-by-side, not unlike shoppers compare SUVs and stereo equipment online.

Humana has used its own employees to test and tweak its plans, but many at first weren't comfortable with computers and being engaged consumers. Just 6% of Humana workers were the pioneers.

"They're highly compensated and they are people who know how to do math," Bierbower says. "Now that we're into the fourth year, we have 41% of our own associates in these plans."

Blue Cross has also created new high-deductible policies that are compatible with HSAs. Blue Cross already has high-deductible policies, but to be HSA compatible they must be set up so that the entire family shares the same deductible, rather than individually. Also, they contain no co-pays except for some preventive care.

The Blues talked with several Tennessee-based banks, but spokesman Bill Steverson says none were ready for HSAs.

"Some banks were uncertain because these aren't quite like a 401(k)," he says. "This money will be withdrawn so there's uncertainty about how much of an opportunity this will be for them."

Although Wells Fargo has no retail business in Tennessee, it has a commercial presence plus a well-developed online operation, Steverson says.”

“Mtn gal - getting old is not a "bad health habit" (or maybe it is). You're talking about the generation that raised you, and beyond that, the generation that fought WW2.”

“I had a beautifull PPO. Cigna. It's all I needed. Miss it much.”

“This sounds like a viable idea for my union folks. The question is, where would this money reside? Banks, Mutual Funds, etc. If your money is at risk, it may not be a good idea (see Enron), but if it's a stable account, and the monies are guaranteed, then it will be something I push.”

“we are going to have a meeting this Thursday with the United Healthcare Rep. I have quite a few questions/concerns.
One is prescriptions. Most people pay the deductible but if you had to pay full price for 3-4 scrips would that equal or exceed what you insurance premiums are for a month. You could end up in a hole if you have to pay for quite a few, esp for a family.”

“Ask broad questions of the United rep, and demand detailed answers. My experience with those a-holes, is that they'll lie to tell you what you want to hear. It's all about the benjamins with those folks.”

“Snake, Back up and think about it, it will come to you. I said nothing about age and you have no Idea how old I am. My statement has nothing to do with Medicare. I would not ask for a group that limited participation by age. Even in advanced ages habits current and past are a large factor in ones health. I don’t limit my compassion to just those that find a soft spot in your heart. All deserve it, at least until they individually prove otherwise.”

“I was curious if you could use these as a tax dodge for retirement.

Basically, if you are young and don't have many expenses, you could keep loading up on the thousand dollars tax free. Then, at retirement time, it would just turn into a retirement account.

Or am I just misreading this whole plan?”

“Mtn Gal - I did as you suggested and can see how you meant it different than I took it. As far as age is concerned, does that mean you are of the group that raised the WW2 generation? ;.)”

“I must be older than that. Some people say I raised Cain. But I don’t even reminder meeting Adam.”

“reformed lurker, if you stay single and are young you could rack up some money over time BUT when you get married and have kids that money will disappear quickly. When you have kids they get sick due to being around other kids. Kids pass it on to the parents who pass it around...a never ending circle of being sick. Also you get all those doctor bill expenses at full price.”

“Make SURE it rolls over! My wife has a similar account and if you don't use it by the end of the FISCAL year, it's gone. But it is a nice way to avoid some taxes as it is "pre-tax" income.”

“Damn yall. Now I'm gonna have to go read the rules on this stuff.

my hunch is that you can't load up lots of dollars and then "convert" it to a retirement type account. FSA's will only payout the money for "qualified" expenses and only then on a reimbursement basis, HSA are prolly much the same.

The money is held by a "trust" that is usually managed by an insurance company. They have a fiduciary responsibilty to manage the funds in a "prudent manner", in other words if they put it in something risky and lose it they are on the hook for the funds. Typically, they are held in money market accounts. The incentive is not to build up earnings on the money but rather to fund qualified expenses with pre tax dollars. Your not going to earn diddly squat on the money you put in the plan. I don't think FSA even pay interest on your balance. I guess the administrator prolly gets the earnings as their "fee" for managing the accounts.”

“first i would get suze orman's opinion....then i would consult the i-ching :)

i agree with buddha bear...ask a lot of questions and demand detailed answers......”

“I didn't watch the SOTU last night but supposedly Bush talked about Health Savings Account.

I was on a HSA account for the past yr. We changed insurance companies and I had a choice between another HSA or a reg. medicial insurance. I chose the reg medical insurance where I pay the copay on office visits. prescriptions, ER and such.
Under the old HSA account I ended up spending more money that I did under the reg plans. Others I worked with stayed with the HSA plan because it worked best for them.

There is good and bad to an HSA account. You have to look at it closely to see what is best for you and your family.

Also the size of the company can play into what the cost are per employee.”

“i'm on a HSA and i love it...my company put $1000 in a fund and every medical expense i have, doctors visits, prescriptions etc, comes out of that...i have no copay, everything comes out of that fund...if the $1000 gets used up in a year i am responsible for the next $1000 and then everything after that is either 100% or 90% paid for by the insurance company depending on the procedure...and if i get preventative procedures they're paid for my the insurance and it doesn't come out of the fund...it works great for me cause i rarely go to the doctor and have no permanent medications”

“thriftyhiker, that sounds like it would work for me. So you're responsible for the first 2k and after that insurance covers everything? What are the rates for the insurance like?”

“is that 2K for you or your whole family..my deductible was almost 3k”

“As you said, if you're healthy, it works well. For those who aren't healthy - who need medical tests and treatments that they may not get because the money comes out of their pockets - maybe not so good.

But the current system really isn't working. The price of insurance has gotten ridiculous because the cost of treatment has gotten so high. Just routine annual tests can cost hundreds of dollars. If I had to pay all that, I'd skip it.”

“actually my company puts the first $1000 in a fund for me, i don't pay that, and i'm responsible for the next $1000 it it's needed...so the most i would pay in a year would be $1000 plus if i had any procedures/surgeries that i would have to pay 10% of...i pay $23 a month and that's just for me...they have a family plan but i'm not sure what the premium is but the fund jumps to $2000 and maybe more w/ each dependant, i'm not sure...bottom line, i go to the doctor maybe once a year...i pay nothing except my $23 a month...if i were to ever go into the hospital it would only cost me $1000”

“Ginny, it's not the cost of health care that has increased, it's the malpractice insurance has increased. The health care providers can't afford their insurance and the cost is passed down to the patients (and their health care insurance.) Maybe if our country wasn't so damn sue happy, we would have affordable health care.
Then again we can always go socialist. (I didn't say that! LOL!) ; P”

“The price of insurance has gotten ridiculous because the cost of treatment has gotten so high.

the cost of treatment has gotten so high because of the price of malpractice insurance and the inability for the consumer(the patient)to shop around...insurance companies get an underserved bad rap...doctors are getting sued left and right these days for little things...i saw a report just the other day about small towns having problems keeping doctors cause they're all going to work at hospitals so they don't have to pay the high price of malpractice insurance...but that's for another soapbox ;)

damn, pixie beat me to it...i need to learn to type faster :)
last edited: 2/01/06 4:00:12 PM”

“I just switched to a HSA/large deductable account. Our company put $1000 seed money in too. I put what I used to pay in premiums in every month. I think it'll work out good. Over $2500 in expenses and I'm covered 100% by insurance.

The money that I put in will roll over every year and accumulate if I don't use it for medical expenses. Once I'm at retirement age I can use it for anything I want - kind of like an IRA.

If it doesn't work for me, I can always swith back to either the HMO or the low deductable PPO.”

“I did a study on this for my employer last month. HSA's are a brain child of right wing think-tanks, which made me very skeptical at first, but I did the research anyway. I teamed up with two treaserers of some local school districts, and compiled data comparing regular insurance plans v. HSA's. Here are the main points of my report on the issue:

1. HSA's Benefit young, single, healthy workers.
2. It's a tax-free shelter.
3. Depending on the rules of the HSA, it could possibly serve as a severance package.
4. Older workers, families and women would pay more than many current HC plans.
5. May keep workers from obtaining service to save money, resulting in future, more serious health problems.
6. Critics say that the plan will only benefit the wealthy, however, it must be pointed out that they are under the assumption that the employer would donate little, if anything, to the plan.
7. Could place huge financial burden on employees who have catastrophic illness in the first 2 years of account activation.

BEST USES OF THE PLAN
1. If the employer pays into the plan, yearly, that would cover 90%+ of the deductible.
2. If employee could roll extra money into a severance package, and or, into the next years plan. For example: Dicks deductable is $2,000. His employer contributes $2,000 to his HSA every year. After year 1, Dick has $1,000 left in his account. He chooses to roll the money into Year 2 account, which gives him $3,000 at the start of that year.
3. 100% coverage after deductable is met.

According to my data, the only area where an employer will save money under HSA's and meet the criteria stated above, is with a very high deductible ($5,000), and the employee contributing at the very least, 20% toward the deductible.

Basically, unless you have no HC insurance, do not have a chronic illness, and or are paying 50%+ toward your current premuims, this is not a decent option. The problem is, it's a quick fix even for those folks. Health Insurance companies will end up upping the rates once this catches on, and then there will be no savings, and the employee will end up suffering the most.
last edited: 2/01/06 4:13:54 PM”

“HSA are set up for people (with or without families) who don't have set medical expenses every month. I do and that is why it cost me so much.

Like I said it isn't for everyone”

“We use an FSA. I have to guess every year but I get it spot on every year. This last year I guessed to within $17 out of $3000. Pretty good even if I do say so myself.”

“Jimmy, good luck if you get diagnosed with diabeties or cancer in month 2 of any year. Then, you'd feel it.”

“$2500 is the deductable for our HSA per individual with a max of $5000 per family.

Our plan includes a wellness benefit where our annual checkups up to $500 are not subject to the deductable; so we can go to the doctor every year without paying anything.

This plan is great because you can switch off of it and back to one of the other plans in the beginning of each year if your annual medical costs increase.”

“so with seed money of $1000, the $150 each month that I was paying for the HMO, and the $75 per month the employer is paying in extra (total $2,700 going in there this year) it would be tough to go wrong.”

“There is so much mis-information on this thread I think I'll throw-up on my keyborad before I can finish typing my response. For brevity, I'll just respond to BB's fairy-tale, union-orineted post:


1. HSA's Benefit young, single, healthy workers.

Of course they do.. DUHHHH, it's a health-benefit plan! Why wouldn't it benefit someone who doesn't need many services (ie., young, healthy people!)? Just HOW FAR UP your rectum IS your head to not know this is obvious?

2. It's a tax-free shelter.

SO?

3. Depending on the rules of the HSA, it could possibly serve as a severance package.

SO??


4. Older workers, families and women would pay more than many current HC plans.

No #&%!$??? You mean people who would actually USE health care services more, such as older workers, families and women... would actually be asked to PAY more for the services they use? WOW!! What a CONCEPT! (Do you have any idea how silly it sounds to even question this?)

5. May keep workers from obtaining service to save money, resulting in future, more serious health problems.

What... you mean we won't FORCE people to pay for services / insurance they don't want? WAIT... isn't one of the major "uninsured" groups we always hear so much whining about from the left - the young, self-proclaimed "invincible" males 20-28 YO who think they'll never get sick & shouldn't ever need health-care insurance?

Jeesus, be consistent for once in your life, OK?

6. Critics say that the plan will only benefit the wealthy, however, it must be pointed out that they are under the assumption that the employer would donate little, if anything, to the plan.

BB, there are multiple plans being suggested, most likely there will never be ONE plan, but a "menu" selection option. And, once again, for the millionth time, why is it the EMPLOYERS responsibility to pay for health care? Sorry... but it's the EMPLOYEE's responsibility! Let THEM pick & choose what they want!

7. Could place huge financial burden on employees who have catastrophic illness in the first 2 years of account activation.

REALLY!? Sorry, but life isn't fair. Under any plan I've ever seen, yesterdays, todays or tomorrows, if you are unfortunate enough to come down with some catestrophic illness, then guess what... you're gonna suffer financially! What is the world is such a surprise about this?

HEY BUDDHA BEAR... GUESS WHAT... IF YOU COME DOWN WITH PNEMONIA NEXT WEEK YOU'RE GONNA FEEEL BAD... AND THERE'S NOTHING I CAN DO ABOUT IT!!


BEST USES OF THE PLAN
1. If the employer pays into the plan, yearly, that would cover 90%+ of the deductible.

This is BB's UNION proposal... the employer should pay 90%. Nice benefit.

2. If employee could roll extra money into a severance package, and or, into the next years plan. For example: Dicks deductable is $2,000. His employer contributes $2,000 to his HSA every year. After year 1, Dick has $1,000 left in his account. He chooses to roll the money into Year 2 account, which gives him $3,000 at the start of that year.

Standard HSA option, being offered today.

3. 100% coverage after deductable is met.

Standard HSA option, being offered today.


According to my data, the only area where an employer will save money under HSA's and meet the criteria stated above, is with a very high deductible ($5,000), and the employee contributing at the very least, 20% toward the deductible.

Basically, unless you have no HC insurance, do not have a chronic illness, and or are paying 50%+ toward your current premuims, this is not a decent option. The problem is, it's a quick fix even for those folks. Health Insurance companies will end up upping the rates once this catches on, and then there will be no savings, and the employee will end up suffering the most.



Get a life, BB, the facts of life include these:

1. It costs $$ to deliver healthcare. SOMEONE has to pay for it.
2. If you use more Healthcare services, it will cost you more.
3. If you want your employer to cover HC costs, then they'll have to recoup those costs elsewhere... like your salary.
4. If you take care of yourself & need HC services less, you should pay less!


I'm guessing you never took economics 101... this is all common sense stuff.
last edited: 2/01/06 7:19:28 PM”

“I have been investing in a really cool HSA the past decade or so. My body, so far so good. I quit smoking (about $80billion in costs to taxpayers) and am not obese (another $120 billion or so), my annual january visit when I inevitably get sick this week as a matter of fact.

The thing I love about my HSA is that I get to reap so many benefits. Improved health and vigor, healthy skin and hair (whats left) great teeth, energy to spare, a pleasant disposition a sense or ownership of the account,getting to feel good that my choices are actually helping to keep health care costs down (see above). Plus I dont have to wait till I am sick or retired to enjoy the benefits, I can do it TODAY!

We all have an HSA we all get to reap the return on our investment. Use yours wisely, you only get one.”

“YEA Birch! You "get it", I wish more would!”

“wanderer, actually I dont really have it, I am sooooo spoiled at my job (union shop, I am the VP) regarding health care. I just try not to use it except when necessary, I was grateful for it when we had a kidney tumor scare with our then 4year old daughter this past fall. We changed coverage this contract as a way to self-fund a raise. I know its changing, at least I get to have some impact on my options.

All that being said, I still do everything I can to keep my use down and in turn reduce my costs and burdens on the system.”

“I still do everything I can to keep my use down and in turn reduce my costs and burdens on the system

What that means, Birch, is that you DO "get it", or are at least a responsible human being! Good for you!

Healthcare is my fav subject because there is so much under our own control that we can do to (1) improve our quality of life & (2) simultaneously reduce costs that it blows the mind to consider the possibilities!

If everyone knew what it costs to provide healthcare to these groups, which are largely issues within our control:
(1) obese people
(2) Smokers
(3) alcohol abusers
(4) drug abusers
(5) participants in KNOWN high-risk activities.. ie... unprotected sex w a same-sex partner, etc.

The other big thing that drives me nuts is the influence of pharmaceutical manufacturers advertising on the masses. Everyone watches TV & then thinks they need this, that or the other pill for whatever they think ails them. BULL! What you probably need is to get off your fat a$$ and take responsibility for your own health... maybe exercise, mabe learn the benefits of a positive mental attitide, maybe stop eating the McFat "Extra-size" French Fries, etc etc etc.

The list goes on & on & on. I get carried away on this subject, it's just sooooo sad to see people die young needlessly, suffer needlessly, drive up costs that could be better applied to those who NEED healthcare legitimately, etc.

Rant over, just for now!”

“Buddha Bear: It's not my primary insurance. I have a very nice PPO that has worked very well for years, even for major medical. We use the FSA to pay for deductables, copays, perscription drugs, eyeglasses, dental copayment, etc, etc. Basically the insurance covers pretty much everything and the FSA drives down the cost of what the insurance doesn't cover by letting me pay with pre-tax dollars. It's a good deal.”

“wanderer, there are some medications that people still have to take no matter what shape they are in. Don't act like everyone sits on their butt and does nothing to help themselves.
Prescriptions cost a lot of money even if you only have to pay the negotiated rate (HSA accts). In my case I am saving almost 120.00 per month (prescriptions only) on mine by doing the reg medical insurance (deductible) vs the HSA.
Not every company puts money into the HSA acct for you (mine didn't). Any money that went into the savings acct I put in. It still wasn't enough to pay for my medicine each month. Luckily I had enough medicine to last for a few months while the acct grew.
I still had money going towards the HSA premium and the company put money in it also.”

“wanderer (now getting to sarge-dumbarse-level), my report thread, were from a objective POV. When you participate in something called an "objective point of view", you try to look at the good and the bad, and spell out the goods and bads in a simple way so people can understand it. Your childish attacks on my objective study, in this case, are unfounded, yet typical of "righties". The information presented in this matter was merely objective.


Birch. Thanks again for showing everybody on TT how perfect you are, and how your viewpoint is morally right! I know many of us sometimes forget how to conduct ourselves properly, and we all appreciate your constant reminders.

Oh well, it's time for me to stop smoking, eat right, work out, and hope my kid dodges a kidney bullett, so I can feel that I'm in control of my personal responsibility to society. (A lotta work, gotta go)”

“My issue with it is that it would seem to be a disincentive to visit the doctor regularly or to have certain tests done that you might not have thought twice about under other plans.

But it's people's choices.

This is however, a small tinkering with a system in need of major reform.

The litigation issue is a problem, and some small-town doctors do struggle to get insurance at an affordable rate - but to blame the majority of rising healthcare costs on this is just a BS excuse to shift attention away from the fact that American consumers are being gouged.
Americans pay nearly twice as much for their healthcare per person than many other western nations. Those costs are weighing down American business, which picks up most of the costs. It's time something is done, but then maybe that would hit the profits of the healthcare industry, and they pump enough money into Washington to make sure this never happens.”

“BB, I think quitting smoking would be a great choice for you or anyone who smokes. You'll save tons of money and feel loads better. Good luck! Plus that'll amke excercise easier for ya.”

“two quotes from BB

HSA's are a brain child of right wing think-tanks, which made me very skeptical at first

my report thread, were from a objective POV. When you participate in something called an "objective point of view"

does anybody else find these two statements to be contradictory?...just my $0.02

My issue with it is that it would seem to be a disincentive to visit the doctor regularly or to have certain tests done that you might not have thought twice about under other plans. Y2

i don't understand this...under a lot of these plans most of these visits are paid for by the insurance company with no cost to the insured, so how is this a DISincentive?

Americans pay nearly twice as much for their healthcare per person than many other western nations.

and how do we compare to those countries in terms of obesity, tobacco use, and heart disease?
last edited: 2/02/06 7:13:09 AM”

““My issue with it is that it would seem to be a disincentive to visit the doctor regularly or to have certain tests done that you might not have thought twice about under other plans.

I had to chuckle at that, because that’s what I’m doing now under my HMO. I can’t afford the co-pays. I’ve been thinking about dropping my health insurance all together (I definitely could use the extra $175 a month; BTW that's only half my employer pays the other half), but probably would because if I came down with a serious illness or got injured I’d be screwed.
last edited: 2/02/06 7:42:57 AM”

“i could be wrong but it seems to me that there would be some plans out there that you could get that would just cover hospitalization...if you're paying $175 a month i'm sure you wouldn't spend more than that on doctors visits and prescriptions...of course i'm just making assumptions about your health”

“Call me old fashioned but healthcare for me has always been about working hard to gain skills that will allow me to get a good job where my employer provides me the fringe benefits which include healthcare insurance. I much prefer taking the hard road which leads to providing for myself and not depending on an ever expanding welfare state where the government has a say so in my own well being and healthcare.

Call me crazy.”

““BB, I think quitting smoking would be a great choice for you or anyone who smokes. You'll save tons of money and feel loads better. Good luck! Plus that'll amke excercise easier for ya.”

Ever the levelheaded inspirational prophet of reason. LOL! Birch is far and away one of the greatest influences on me personally. He has always inspired me to not only do better physically but he is also a great moral barometer and a fine example of how one walks the walk. OK, this little tug job will cost ya $20. Heehee!”