GWB - "Loving" Women since 1972

“An old girlfriend sent me this email, I thought I'd sahre:

The Bush Record on Women

Women are still paid 76 cents for every dollar earned by men. Women in
America suffer from pay disparity and it's not getting better -- the pay
gap
has increased under Bush's watch. [Census Bureau] Even those who work in
the
Bush White House only earn 78 cents to every dollar earned by their male
co-workers. [The Washington Post, 7/13/04]

* African American women were paid 34 cents less than men in 2002.
[Census Bureau]

* Hispanic women were paid 46 cents less than men in 2002. [Census
Bureau]

George Bush has dismantled efforts to ensure equal pay for equal work. Bush
eliminated the Equal Pay Initiative, a program designed to expand federal
enforcement against discriminatory practices that threaten equal pay for
women and minorities.

George Bush closed White House Office on Women's Issues. Upon taking
office,
Bush "quietly" closed the White House Office on Women's Issues, according
to
the Boston Globe. White House officials did not explain the decision to
close the office but claimed the office "expired at the end of President
Clinton's term."

The unemployment rate for women is 37 percent higher than it was when Bush
took office. [Bureau of Labor Statistics]

* The unemployment rate for African American women is 10.4 percent,
117 percent higher than for white women. [Bureau of Labor Statistics]

* The unemployment rate for Hispanic women is 8.4 percent, 62 percent
higher than for white women. [Bureau of Labor Statistics]

2.2 million women have lost health care coverage on Bush's watch and higher
costs have caused one quarter of women to delay or forego care. [U.S.
Census
Bureau]

* Family health care premiums have increased by $2,630 during the past
four years, an increase of 49 percent. [Kaiser/HRET Survey of
Employer-Sponsored Health Benefits, 2003]

George Bush has appointed extremists who are hostile to women's issues in
powerful policymaking positions throughout the executive branch. One
example
is the appointment of Dr. David Hager to the Food and Drug Administration's
(FDA) Reproductive Health Drugs Advisory Committee. Hager, an OB/GYN,
refuses to prescribe birth control to single women and has gone as far as
recommending prayer for women when they have premenstrual syndrome. Hager
also joined with the Christian Medical Association to lobby the FDA to
reverse the approval of RU-486. ["Tribulation Worketh Patience," New York
Times, 10/9/2002; "Jesus and the FDA," Time, 10/14/2002]

Bush Prohibited States from Offering Paid Family and Medical Leave. Bush's
Department of Labor repealed a rule drafted under President Clinton that
allowed states to use unemployment funds to provide for paid family or
medical leave. The rule had been drafted to help men and women who wanted
to
take time off to care for a child or a sick family member but could not
afford it. [National Women's Law Center, "Slip Sliding Away," April 2004;
nwlc.org]”

“BB - I think you know that the relevant issue is if two people of opposite gender, DOING THE SAME WORK, are getting paid the same or different. Wouldn't you agree that there is a higher percentage of women in support roles and the food industry, which typically pay lower. Wouldn't you agree that this is often a CHOICE by the women for flexibility reasons?”

“I agree that there are a higher percentage of women in those industries, but I don't know if the above email compared men and women in similar jobs. If we go with your theory, women also work as strippers, and at Hooters, which would even out the average. :) Ask Chili & Opie!”

“Ahhh, but we're talking about reported income instead of total income. I think you'll agree that there is a difference.

Another point, we have an engineer with more total years of experience than I do, but she makes less than me. Is this discrimination? No, she works part time and has a flexible schedule. She works as much or little as she wants. This is what she wants and describes it as the perfect job, yet we would show up in your stats as "discriminatory."”

“My wife is a civil engineer.

She first went to work in '84 and received her P.E. in '89.

She has made less than men with the same or less experience.”

“But also doing the same type of work? Meaning, at about early 30's some folks start to do more management and others continue with strict design work. If it's designer to designer and both perform the same work and the same quality of work and both meet with clients at the same level, and.... I'm not saying that is or is not your case, but there are tons of variables.”

“There's another sociological reason for the disparity in income that I've never really seen discussed. Women often take the first offer made to them. There are two women who have the same job I do, we were hired at the same time. On paper they are both more qualified than I am, yet they make significantly less money. Why? They took the first offer the company made, I didn't. Do I feel bad about that, no, they should have held out for more money. I've seen this same dynamic just about everywhere I've worked.”

“It's a fact, Jackie.

And why would a company offer a woman less?

Maybe it's a sociological thing.......they think they can get away with it.
And there are no laws to protect women from the practice.”

“These women were'nt offered less, they were made the same offer and accepted it.”

“I don't doubt it is a fact, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's because she's female.

I will add that the construction industry is obviously still extremely male dominated and it doesn't surprise me that it still goes on in this industry in particular.”

“sociological reason

Are you suggesting that social forces external to and coercive of the female is responsible? Or some psychological factors? What do you mean, bison?”

“The business of engineering seems to be male-dominated.........dinosaur-dominated.”

“I've heard tales of worthless older men who are carried by the company.

My wife has had to "clean up" after some of the dead weight.”

“And some people believe government workers are worthless.”

“How much did Clinton do to change this gap?

I think Monica got the short end of the stick too!”

“Mutt - When you apply such psychological factors to a social group and that groups interaction with social institutions it becomes a question for sociology -the analysis of a social institution or societal segment as a self-contained entity or in relation to society as a whole.”

“I agree with a lot of what's already been said...

the statistics are too general...and I believe statistics like this discourage certain people from going into a field they think they have no chance in, simply because they've been given the idea that they can't get in, or won't get paid like they should. I'm not saying that's right, but I know at least one woman who won't go on in her chosen field because she's been told she won't get a job because she's a woman. So her attitude is "why bother?" I'd say, I'm doing it - let them tell me I can't have a job.

I'd like to see statistics where all things were equal (i.e. education, experience, etc) those results would have more meaning.

I've been working full time since I was 17, and I really have never seen wage differences. At one job I found out the guys were getting more than me to do the same job, then found out that when I filled out my application I put that I would accept minimum wage. The guys I talked to had put down a number that they wanted.”

“The tired old men probably worked 100 hours a week for 30 years when they founded the firm. That's not unique to engineering, same thing happens in law firms.

Simple solution, either change firms or start her own. It really is that simple.

I was at the ACEC convention in Colorado Springs this past fall and one of the topics was diversity. ACEC is the business org for consulting eng. The speaker referred to it being a pale maile industry. Looking around the room, he was correct. Basically, the whole focus of the 4 day conference was diversity and folks were listening. Things don't change quickly, but they do change.”

“IT ain't that simple.

The "tired old men" are incompetent.”

“Well leave then, quit playing the victim.”

“I'm not playing victim, just tellin' it like it is.”

“Twigeater makes my point quite well. I think the issue is, and I'm stereotyping here, that women in general expect to be compensated fairly, Men in general expect to get all that they can fair or not. I would expect that a large part of the wage difference comes from this. Again what my company originally offered for my position I would say was probably fair, if on the low side, the two women accepted that offer, I was offered the same amount and did not accept. Net result, I'm paid half again what they make, simply because my expectation was not to be paid a "fair" amount but rather to be paid as much as the company was willing to pay me.”

“Good point Bison. When my wife worked she was the HR manager, but basically did everything because she was able and willing to solve all problems. She never asked for more money. A guy would have been more likely to scream for it.”

“That's some fancy fact twistin' right there.”

“Nigal, I assume you're refering to the data from Komrade Bear?”

“Okay, Bison - social psychology. Gotcha.”

“Okay, Bison - social psychology. Gotcha.”

“Yeah day hiker. I don’t really mind people who like to lie and twist things to their own devises but there’s a point ya reach where it just becomes insulting that someone’s trying to hand you turd and say it’s an apple. Then they get pissed because you don’t believe it’s an apple. It’s as if they are saying, “Here, I think you are so damn stupid that you will believe this line of shlt.”.”

“The libs do that everyday around here Nigal, it's not something new.”

“Check out tables 5 and 6.

http://www.census.gov/prod/2004pubs/censr-15.pdf


I guess all the successful charges prosecuted by the EEOC under the Equal Pay Act statute and the various successful class action suits in recent years are just more evidence of how the system discriminates against white males.


This too:

”

“I didn't see other tables. Were you talking rows?

Looks like they are catching more folks and having more successful prosecutions. That's a good thing.

The chart is interesting, but I have a very hard time believing that a female attorney or doctor makes 60% that of a male. Those situations are using based on production. Now if the female chooses to work less then too bad.”

“Well, I know that I was being paid less than severl men in my company (engineering consulting firm) with less experience than I have. I screamed. Pretty loudly. I got half of what I asked for. But, I asked for double of what I wanted. In the meantime, however, I got my engineering license, and ended up not getting a raise for getting my license. I was told to wait for my bonus at the end of the year. I'm now hearing my group isn't doing well financially, so if I don't get a significant increase in my bonus over last years, I'm gonna scream again.”

“Yep, you're getting a raw deal smiley. No doubt about it. Most folks get around 10% when they pass it.”

“Ya don't say?”

“But you have to look at smiley girl's situation from a pov of what would I do. If I felt that I was making less because of my gender I'd be running to the EEOC, that's what it's there for. If I'm getting paid less because that's what I chose to work for, I'd ask for a raise, if they didn't give it to me, and I decided that I wasn't getting what I was worth, I'd quit. I think to many people lose sight of the fact that there is a big difference between getting less because that's what you're willing to work for vs. being discriminated against based on your gender.”

“I didn't make a link to the census data, dayhiker - that was why you didn't see table 5 and 6 http://www.census.gov/prod/2004pubs/censr-15.pdf


"I have a very hard time believing that a female attorney or doctor makes 60% that of a male."
- dayhiker
11:15:01 AM

From the Census Bureau (1999):

Physician/surgeon
Men: $140,000
Women: $88,000

Lawyers
Men: $90,000
Women: $66,000”

“Check out female dentists. They're getting ripped.”

“Looking at tables 7 and 8 it appears that jobs that are highly unionized or are with the government have the highest degree of gender equality.”

“Oh yeah, well, well, well, I'll shut up now. That's shocking to me. The doc thing is particularly curious though because you are paid by the insurance company. You bill based on how much work you perform. I do think there's more to that one. At the attorney level who knows.”

“but WHY are they making less...is the real question...

If it truly is because of gender, then I agree with Bison. We all pay taxes for the EEOC to be there for us.

I didn't look at the tables, but is the data broken down by economic area? i.e., an engineer in Maine wouldn't make as much as an engineer in New York.”

“Geez Violin, whodduh thunk that Gov or union jobs would be like that.

Bison, sometimes people are stuck, to some extent, in a job or don't know that they have redress.

Not everyone is as smart/lucky/good-lookin'/young as you.”

“Everyone knows they can quit and look for another job, if they're not aware of this they need to see a professional. And if I'm so good-lookin' where are the ladies who are supposed to be breaking down my door? The government jobs I'm aware of pay on a schedule, there in no negotiation of salary, I believe it's the same for most union jobs. You take the ability to get a price above the market price away. So does this affect men's salaries more or women's. My guess would be that if there wasn't a salary schedule the men would be getting paid more because they'd ask for it.”

“As the father of three daughters, I'm spending their college funds today and training them to become hazardous materials removal workers. They can practice on the dog doodie in the backyard.”

“Bison, you're young and single and idealistic.

We be talkin' about the real world.”

“Okay, I did look at the tables, and also read some of the narrative...

The statistics DO NOT take into consideration age, experience, etc...I can't copy and paste, but check out this section on page 7..."earnings by occupation and demographic characteristic"

Also read page 12 for suggestions in differences in the doctors salaries...

You can't just look at the charts and get the whole picture...”

“I am talkin' anecdotal evidence and stories from the trenches.

What's wrong with "equal pay"?”

“BTW I agree with MarkO - though we all have "choices" they become pretty limited once you have family, home, need health insurance...”

“Dat's what I'm talkin' about, twigeater!”

“equal pay is the right thing, as long as it's equal across the board...say, if I have a 4 year degree and 5 years experience, work full time, am 30 years old...and my male coworker has the exact same resume...the only difference being gender...then yes, it would be wrong for one to get paid more than the other. Wrong for me to get paid more than him, and vice versa...

But it isn't right to cry gender discrimination when it really isn't.”

“Twig - I read page 7 - on the bottom (running to page 11) it says:
"Other factors that
account for earnings differences
include industry, occupation,
race, marital status, and
job tenure. When we account
for difference between male
and female work patterns as
well as other key factors,
women earned, on average,
80 percent of what men earned
in 2000....Even after accounting
for key factors that affect earnings, our model could not
explain all of the differences in
earnings between men and
women."”