The Debate 9/30

“When you get the bigger portion of a tax cut, percentage-wise and amount-wise, then you get the bigger portion of a tax cut. Sounds logical to me. Where's the problem?”

“"I'll repeat it ad infinitum until you give up, because I say so."

Dunadan
09:27:14 AM
10/01/04

Dunadan, that is exactly what you and mtnsteve and Bolshevik Bear etc do... talk about the pot calling the kettle black.”

“It makes no sense at all to compare apples and oranges and confuse poor ignorant people like Dunadan. I guess it's not a wonder that you think the way you do with people like lee leading you around by the nose.”

“I want to thank the Kerry mole who snuck itching powder into George's underoos.

The above quote about who attacked us that Town Dog posted is when Bush lost it. I think he realized that he'd just blown the debate. Rove must've had a fit.”

“oh... and lee won the post-debate debate.”

“Yeah it's hard to win against people who can't do math.”

“ABC POLL ON WHO WON DEBATE: Kerry: 45 - Bush: 36 - Tie: 17

CNN/GALLUP POLL ON WHO WON DEBATE: Kerry: 53 - Bush: 37

CBS POLL ON WHO WON DEBATE: Kerry: 44 - Bush: 26 - Tie: 30”

“Bison, I think you're out of your league. You argue against a financial planner who makes his living helping people submit their tax forms. Reminds me of the time Arc was arguing economics with Violin. Ya gotta love it.”

“Do you have any idea what I do for a living Dunadan?”

“"As far as the debate goes, I don't see how anybody could look at this debate and not score this a very clear win on points for John Kerry." "It was John Kerry's best performance ever."
-- Joe Scarborough”

“"As far as the tax cut debate goes, I don't see how anybody could look at this debate and not score this a very clear win on points for lee."
-- Violin”

“LMFAO@Violin, ... itching powder in the underoos, ... that explains it.”

“Like I've said before you start gettin' in trouble when people who can't do math are keepin' score.”

“I sure as heck hope you're not in financial planning, Bison, if you can't even admit that the rich get the bigger part of GW's tax cut. I mean, it doesn't say that you don't support GW if you just admit that the more of the cut goes to the rich. It's OK, you can do it.”

“I thought Kerry did very well. I thought he looked more presidential than Bush. And the whole debate seemed to be about Kerry. Kerry talked about what he'd do and Bush talked about what Kerry had said and what he was planning to do. As an incumbant I would have thought it would have been better for Bush to focus more on his record - this is what I've achieved and so on. He ended up on the defensive for almost the entire debate.”

“GW's next performance will be in Crawford as the hunchback of Notre Dame.”

“Thanks for the idea Dunadan - I'll fire up photoshop later.”

“I can feel it from here.


I was worried that I was gonna have to continue to find new ways to state the obvious until bison realized he was turned around backwards. And I just didn't think I was gonna have enough time in the day.


Just for the fun of it . .. .


Bison. you Said "if I had the same sources"

Okay.


YOu are, I assume a middle class wage earner. YOur "sources" are what you earned from your job.


My clients are retired folks with NO earned income. Their "sources" are what they get from Dividends, Interest and Capital gains.

The tax cut AS A PERCENTAGE, that they got on their "sources" was BIGGER than what you got on your "sources".

Their sources (divd, int and cap gains) garned them a 58.62% tax cut and your sources (earned income, maybe some savings interest) garnered you a 25% tax cut.


So. If we extrapolate from this example to the american public in general, this is what we get:

Wage earners get a 25% tax cut.

Folks who live on divd, and cap gains get a 58.62% tax.


Now, stay with me here, the more stocks you own, then presumably the more dividends you earn. And the more capital gains you create.

You can therefore argue that the MORE stock someone owns . ..the more they would have benefited from the tax cuts.

And . ..I don't think this is a leap . . .the more stock someone own . . .the wealthier they probably are.

ergo: The wealthier you are, the more you benefited from the tax cut.





I suddenly feel cruel.

Well. that's enough for me.


I have got to tend to my rich folks.



In fact the ones in question are taking a distibution of $30,000 for one of those luxury eco-cruises down the coast of South America to Patagonia, Terra del Fuego and possibly antartica.

3 weeks on a 75 guest luxury yatch . . .


hey bison . ..guess whose paying for that $30,000 trip . . . . .”

“Dunadan I said very clearly that more of the total amount of money goes to the rich. The fact that you would expect anything different is amazing, here's a quick math lesson for you, if you take a smaller percentage of a huge number and compare it to a large percentage of a small number, the first instance is going to have a larger total. No #&%!$. But that has nothing to do with who got a bigger tax cut. There is one point of comparison from me to a rich person, that is wages, no rich person got a larger tax cut as a percentage of wages than I did, that's just the facts. Bringing the amount that they got back on dividends makes no sense when comparing my tax cut to their's which is what the discussion was about.”

“Lee, does the tax cut apply to bonuses, stock options and the like?”

“Once again you can't get your apparently very thick head around the central issue lee. There is no place for a comparison about who got the larger tax cut between someone who got all of their income from wages and someone who didn't. If they had recieved all of their income from wages they would have gotten a smaller tax cut than me. Whereas, and this is where I still come out ahead, If I had recieved all of my income from the same sources as your retired couple I would have benefited just as much.”

“Back to the original topic: Kerry wins debate number one.”

“Can't wait to see your pictures, Vile Inn.”

“I'll be watching Tuesday night when John Edwards and Uncle Dick go at it.”

“I'm not even close to the top 2% Ewker. I'm at about the 60th percentile, middle class, I got just less than a 25% tax cut, everyone else in my circumstance got the same. And the rich got a hell of a lot less."


Bison.


Again. As you stated so clearly
this statement of your is wrong. Both from a percentage and a whole dollar perspective.

"And the rich got a hell of a lot less."”

“"Andthen the ploy to look like the nice guy when he raised the meeting with the widow? or was she a mother? I forget becuase I was rechting at his sad attempt to pull the heartstrings......"

I believe that the person MR. Bush was talking about, PJ, was really birchs friend that gave his life in Afghai.......”

“Lost a lot of stuff in that last post.

Bison. We were arguing about whether middle class folks got more of a tax cut. or rich folk.



as you have agreed, in contradicition to the assertion quoted above that I was trying to disprove, rich folks got a bigger tax cut.”

“Bison. Maybe you and I can argue foreign policy after the domestic policy debates????



Like .. . ..why didn't Kerry bash him for wanting to colonize Mars???”

“Lee you are wrong, the rich in terms of the only reasonable comparison, the percentage of their tax cut on wages, did get less.”

“Bison. If you are satisfied with believing that middle class folks, wage earners like you and me received more benefit from the tax package than wealthy individuals with portfolios of stock, then more power to you.


I will view your other positions in the future through that small window, that prism, that insight that you have opened into your ability to understand, digest and communicate the political and economic currents that surround you.


My fear. And this a real concern. Is that there are other, voting age Americans who feel as you do.


I saw a piece on blue collar workers, who for whatever reason, in the face of uncontrovertible fact, thought they were getting the better end of Bush's tax cut.

They looked at the $800 check or the new jet ski in their driveway . . .and said "Bush is my man, look at the size of my tax cut"


They seemed to have no comphrehension of the magnititude of the cut for the wealthy. No comprehension that cutting the top rate on dividends from 36% to 15% was a huge huge boondoggle for the rich.

It is funny in sad way. It is like the Ellen Dengeners A.D.D. fish who is easily distracted.

Bush waved $800 in front of a bunch of wage earners who said "ooooh loook something shiny" . ..and are unable to comphrehend the magnitude of the benefit that the wealthy will reap. They are pleased as punch with Bush with no idea of where the real money went.


Bison, I put you squarely in that group of people.”

“Oh, and Kerry won the first debate.”

“To make it more interesting in the next debate, I think they should either have scantily clad cheerleaders behind each candidate, or have their daughters mudwrestle between the podiums.”

“Lee your ignorance astounds me.”

“Thanks Buck. I needed an opening to post this one:

”

“I'm extremely worried that are people like you out there who don't understand that people making wages of over 200,000 (the previous 39.3 and 36% brackets) per year getting a 14-16% tax cut are getting less than people in the lower brackets who recieved a larger cut in terms of percentage of their income. Remind me not to come to you for financial advice. And please stop confusing poor Dunadan and Violin.”

“Bison, just email Lee your IRS files from the last 2-3 yrs. This way we will know who is right and who is wrong.”

“correction -
"percentage of their income from wages"”

“Bison, post your tax returns for the last three years on this thread. Let us decide what kind of tax breaks you received.”

“Ewker you don't need my tax returns to know who is right and who is wrong, All you need to do is look at the schedule of changes in the tax code.”

“Totally disagree with Buck on politics & religion......until now!”

“So what's a NUKular MOOlah?”

“GW loves to talk about moolah.”

“Bison, I know what my taxes are and I got nothing as far a tax cut like you are talking about.
When I was married we went to a guy who got us every break imaginable but there wasn't any big tax cut.

We both then claimed single no dependents then when we filed it was married with 4 dependents. I got back a lot every yr due to the fact I let them take it out.

The so called rebate was nothing more than an advance on next yrs taxes. I got that much less when I filed.

It will be interesting to see my taxes this yr esp since I will be single.

I am not sure how the kids will play into this yr since we basically support then while they are in college.”

“I'm sorry Ewker but someone must have screwed you, or more likely there were other factors involved in your tax situation that you are not taking into account. The tax relief that was passed cut taxes across the board, everybody got a tax cut. And despite what lee would have you believe (very nice trick trying to confuse people by bringing an irrelevant example into the disscussion) the tax cut was regressive, those at the lower end got larger cuts than those at the higher ends. That is fact. It's just reality, there's no way around it.”

“Do you have any idea what I do for a living Dunadan?"
Bison
09:47:39 AM
10/01/04

Litter TT threads with Bison Chips?”

“it seems there is more people on this board who disagree with you on it than those who do.

Maybe you had someone do your taxes who screwed it up.”

“my above post was to Bison”

“"Maybe you had someone do your taxes who screwed it up."

Ewker
12:01:07 PM
10/01/04

Apparently not, you're the one who can't figure out where his tax cut went.”

“"Litter TT threads with Bison Chips?"

Buddha Bear
11:58:36 AM
10/01/04

What the hey, it's better than sittin' around postin' propaganda while Fidel Castro's balls are restin' on your chin.”

“I will say this. Kerry would look better on Mt. Rushmore than Bush.”