Philmont Questions

“My son is going to Philmont next June with the Boy Scouts. He needs a few things, such as rain gear and a new sleeping bag. I am starting to look for deals on summer stuff. Can anyone tell me what bag temp rating I should get?”

“We got several good Philmont experts, so you should get some nice responses.

The desert can get chilly at night, but I can't see bringing a zero bag. A 20-degree is a nice all-around bag, and you can always supplement it with some capilenes.”

“its not in the desert really, and depending on the route they take they could get a fair amount of elevation.

HPM is the resident expert.”

“I was there this past June/July. I cariied a 25' bag and it was fine. I'm a cold sleeper. My 2 sons had a 40 and 30 degree bags and they both were fine too. Good raingear is a must. It rained the first 4 days on the trail. It was also used for windbreakers/warmth when we summited Mt Baldy. It rained all morning and the winds were approx 60 mph on top.”

“Thanks you guys. I am leaning towards a 30 or 40 degree bag for him, and some capilenes as TD suggested for extra warmth at night. He'll be in a tent, so that should help.”

“I'll second that on the rain. I was there back in the early 80's and it rained at least some almost every day.”

“Hope I can find some good quality rain gear that doesn't cost a small fortune.”

“check out Red Ledge brand on campmor.

I've got some of their pants and jacket and its excellent.”

“He, shoot, when I went I used a poncho! But that was a long time ago, we all used ponchos!”

“He wore a Red Ledge jacket at the last Jamboree and a few outings and got soaked. Granted, this was on the east coast, and I really think he just sweat a lot due to the humidity and got wet that way.”

“Me? Philmont expert? No, not realy. I've never been but I do work towards getting scouts ready to go every year.

35 to 20 deg on the bag depending on his sleep preferances

Take your pick on rain suits.

Just get stuff that is as light and compresses as small as possible as the Philmont provided gear they have to use isn't very light. Even with having two food resupplies it's not unusual for the kids to be lugging 50+ pound packs around.”

“We ended up taking our own tents and tarp and saved alot of weight/space. Even at that, I was at 45# and some of the older scouts had 55-60#. I still haven't gotten all of the pics loaded to me webpics yet.”

“50 - 60 pounds! Good gawd. My son only weighs 120.”

“The Philmont expert is Phil who posts the photos on the photopage out of the goodness of his heart. He's a really great guy. He had something to do with Philmont. If you went to the photopage, you would find his e-mail address. I'm sure he would be happy to help you with any questions.”

“Philmont East or West?”

“my son made his second trip there this summer and is considering working there in 2005. he took a 32 degree bag,3D bag. it did get wet this time and i had almost bought him a down bag. his weighs 2lbs. also the require long johns. i ordered silk(black) from campmore, they were very light and it kept him warm at night. i love my silks. as for rain gear we went with marmot pre-cip. i think it was northcountry that had the o3 version on sale at the beginning of the year. got a jacket for $30.00 but waited too long and had to pay full price for the pants. go as light as you can afford it is well worth it. any other questions please feel free to ask away.”

“I've been there 3 times. Philmont has an amazingly diverse climate. We hit nights that didn't drop bellow 60 in the south country deserts and hit some lower 40's up on higher elevation. It's not the normal temps that really get you tho. It's the temps after storms. We were upon philips and got an inch of hail. Temps dropped to the middle 30's really fast.

I was fine in my 20 degree bag, the temp i use for normal summer/fall camping. I just wore my fleece if i got cold.

The one thing I would make sure you bring is good rain gear. Invest in a descent set...definatly a wicking membrane. Hydrovent works quite well...don't quite need XCR or anything super fancy. YOu will get wet, almost every day, and you will appreciate good rain gear. Also I suggest goretex gloves for when it's 40* and raining. Really helps out a bunch. consider that a lesson learned the hard way. Bring a good fleece jacket too.

The only other suggestion i have is to take almost none of their gear. We took two stoves, two 2 qt pots, and two serving spoons plus personal gear. Left all their pots and pans behind. Mix ALL the food in the bags and have everyone lick their bowls clean. Then add some water, clean the film off and drink it down. They have a system of doing dishes where you collect all leftover food chunks in a plastic bag. We never touched ours. Makes for much more pleasent trip. Just be sure to boil all your bowls before and after dinner. Kids will whine until they see the alternative.

oh yea...and go through the food when they hand it out and ditch everything you are not going to use. Then go collect from the swap box as much extra stuff that you will eat. Meals are for even numbers of people. So if you have an odd person, you will appreciate the extra food. It's amazing how valuable a powerbar is when you're 6 days out and you meet a crew with an even number of people. So get what you can. Also bring tobasco and other spices. They help alot.

geeze i just keep thinking of more and more stuff.

anyway, i'm sure i'll think of more. Feel free to e-mail me specific questions. My addy is in my profile, or if you have AIM my screen name is Mbeals99”

“My Philmont Page. Click on "Helpful Hints" to get some of your questions answered. I agree with a lot of what deathmarch said.

My son and I used 25 degree bags and were fine. We used a combination of their tents and personal tents. We used their rainfly and big pots. Everything else was ours.

Adult packs were around 50#, but if I went again my pack would be around 40#. The boys were probably all under 40#. We didn't carry much extra stuff.

I'll echo the need for good rain gear. We got some kind of rain all but two days. Fortunately only got rained on one day while hiking. All the rest was afternoon showers or at night. A rainsuit acts as another layer for warmth, so opt for rain suits, not ponchos.

We did a lot of food trading at the food boxes. We traded our pan-cooked breakfasts for oatmeal and cream-of-wheat. Like it was mentioned, take some spices to liven up some of the meals.

Philmont is great. My biggest recommendation is to get in shape...especially adults. You need a lot of cardiovascular conditioning to be really prepared. Everyone should have well broken-in boots and gear they have tested.

We had three practice hikes at altitude during the summer before we actually went to Philmont. Two of them were butt-kickers so we knew we were ready.

Phil & Son on top of Baldy Mtn. (12,400 ft.). Windy & cold, but spectacular view!
”

“yea...i second the butt kicking hikes to warm up that phil mentioned. the first time I went, we had manditory monthly hikes that had predetermined pack weights and mileage. If you could not make these hikes you didn't go. We had one final weed out hike where we did 20 miles of the knobstone with 35#'s. Again, if you could not finish the hike, then there was a good chance you weren't allowed to go to philmont. That year, we were one of the strongest crews out there. Not only physically, but in the manner we would get camp set up and stuff. After the first night, our ranger just stood back and watched. Actually loosened up and had a good time. The other 2 times, the leadership wasn't as put together, and it showed.”

“More good comments from dm99.

Our goal was to get to our next camp BEFORE noon so we could get our campsite assignment and activity time. Then we could pitch camp, eat lunch, and usually have an early activity. If you drag in after 12 noon, you don't get the better spots and activity times.

The rangers at Philmont were cool. They like to see a crew that is together and confident.”

“you good point about the camp site. forgot about that. Also ask your rangers about campsight selection for the places you're going. They've been through there enough they know what sights are cool. Especially make sure you get to your layover camp early. If you're going to be sepending an extra day somewhere, might as well camp someplace cool”

“I was there this last summer. A 20 degree down bag worked great for me. I slept in shorts and a t-shirt. I only used a rain coat (precip) but next time I'll have rain pants too.

They are not using swap boxes at all the camps any more - only the trading posts/re-supply points. Most camps only have a drop box now where you can ditch unwanted food.

Keep the personal gear to a minimum. I took a lexan bowl, a spork, & a 12 0z nalgene for meals.”

“Thanks everyone. These are really great pointers. I will pass these along to the trip leader and refer him to Phil's Philmont page.

Now, if I could just figure out a way to join them. Hmmmmmm.....”

“CD - Lots of women at Philmont! Is there room on the crew for you? In the over 14 age category there are a lot of female Explorers. Plus 4H groups can send crews.

About 1/4 of the rangers were female the summer we were there. They were really cool!”

“Yes, there is room. In fact, my son asked me to go. But there's the issue of cost ($1400 x 2) and lack of vacation time. (...sniff). This would be a great adventure for my son and me to experience together.”

“$1400 a pop? damn. We traveled there from Indiana and it was half that. Even when We flew to the grand canyon it was only about 800 to 850.”

“The actual cost for Philmont is $475. Anything above that is costs relating to getting there and any side trips or activities your local council might add on.

North Florida Council is charging about $1275 this year.”

“Ok, I can't stop thinking about this trip, so I put in my application and deposit. Now I have to wait to see if I get a spot. This is an adventure with my son that I simply cannot pass up. Thanks for all the info everyone.”

“Good luck, I hope you can share this experience with him.”

“Philmont rocks!!!”

“What size pack do you guys think I will need for this trip? My pack is a Mountainsmith Chimera which has a volume of 3750 c.i. I have a feeling that will be too small. Still waiting to hear from the Boy Scout Council to find out if I have a spot.

BTW, I ended up getting my son the Marmot Never Winter 30 degree bag. Less than 2 pounds and packs down well. Thanks for the suggestions.”

“Creek Dancer - You have to be able to carry 4 days of food, personal gear, plus your share of group gear. Your pack is a bit on the smallish side, but doable, depending on what you strap to the outside. You may not have to carry much cookware, the stove, or water filter, depending on how you divide things up.”

“I was there this past summer. I carried a 5000 cu in pack. As a leader I like to have some extra room in case we need to take some of the load from a Scout. most packs were around 40# with food and water. As Phil said, 4 days of food was the most we had to carry at a time.”

“Thanks Phil. My pack really doesn't lend itself to strapping much on the outside, so I think I will look into something larger in the 4500 - 4800 c.i. range.”

“Good point spikehiker.”

“I got a spot! Yeah! So now I need to get my gear together. Just a few more questions.

Does anyone know if there are GPS coordinates available for this area?

Do you recommend the donkeys? The trek leaders suggested we pass on this. He said you spend most of your time either pushing or pulling the critters along. And you can only have them carry the food. So what's the point of using them if you still have to carry the heavy stuff?

Any recommendations on a trek? I hear the north trek is the best because that includes Mount Baldy.”

“My brother used the donkeys when they went.
He really didn't have much to say good or bad.

The food ain't that light though.”

“Creekdancer! Congratulations! You will love it!

For GPS waypoints, see section 1.2.3 on this page.

As you will see, that link has lots of good info.

We did the burro thing and were glad we did. We had two boys who liked animals and seemed to have a way with the burro. Someone had given us some tips and that seemed to help. We we got the burro, they rewarded us with an improved itinerary! The burro carried our tents and sleeping pads as I remember.



We were in the North the whole time and recommend it. itinerary.

The adults thought the food was OK. You can spice it up a bit. See my "hints" page.
last edited: 3/04/05 11:02:15 PM”

“I remember Mt Baldy - lightning rolled in and we had to turn back about 150 feet from the summit. That was my first experience with Western Mtns (grew up in West Tn i.e. river bottoms) fell in love and spent the next 20 years trying to move out west - finally made it.

You can't go wrong in Philmont.”

“Did Philmont 2x, in 1986 and 1988. In '88 we did Blady on foot, part of then Trek 22 with 24 being the hardest. I remember leading the crew up it, 20 steps and stop, 20 steps and stop.”

“Went to Philmont as a scout in 1978. Hiked from north coutry (inluding Baldy) to Rayado(sp) Canyon in the south. It never rained the whole time. Returned with my father, and 4 siblings in 1992 and hiked from Rayado and back to base camp over the Tooth of Time. Great trips both times. The second time I had a 5000 cu inch pack. The Philmont food is heavy, as are group equipment, but the days are not long or far. You will have a trip of a lifetime with your son.

BTW; Hello to a fellow Virginian from the far SW part of the Old Dominion (though not the end of the state, but pretty close)”

“Hey trailngel! Looks like you are new. Welcome to TT.

I was tickled when my son asked me to go. I keep reminding myself that I will have to step back on the trek and not be the mom. Yeah, I am really looking forward to this high adventure. Great memories will be made.”

“Thanks everyone. The scouts will be happy about the waypoints. Phil, I will be sure to tell the crew about the website. There's lots of good stuff in there.”

“Creek Dancer - We had two adults on our trip who had been to Philmont before. They were helpful in showing us the ropes with food and a few other things.

Note that the Philmont maps are not totally accurate. It is not that they are wrong so much as incomplete. You may run across a trail junction...but it may not be on any map...so what do you do? You need to have competency and faith in your navigation skills. For example, at one junction I was the only one who felt we should go to the right. Everyone else felt we should go left. So we went left...for about a mile until the trail veered in the wrong direction...then everyone realized I had been right.

Another thing - start preaching now that everyone will be expected to participate in the activities once they get their camp set up. We had boys who just crashed after that. They really missed out!!”

“Phil, I have heard that about the maps. So between the maps and GPS, hopefully we won't get lost. At the first leaders' meeting, we heard story after story about crews getting lost.

Good point on getting everyone to participate in the activities. My first impulse as a parent and a mother would be to step in and get the scouts busy. But I will leave that up to the scout crew leader and only step in if things get out of hand. There will be another leader there as well.

Soooooooo, I was too embarrased to ask at the meeting, but how many showers can we expect along the north trek. I know there is one as you come off Baldy. I am just wondering how many baby wipes to take along.”

“I remember taking 2 showers, one hot, one ICE cold but if you gather wood and start the fire to heat the water in a wood-fueled hot water heater, you could have that hot as well. We were just too lazy. Also, if your trek includes a trip to the indian sweat lodge (i.e. primative sauna upon which after sweating all the dirt off of you and exiting, you get a mongo bucket of cold water dumped on your head.), that will totally count as a soapless shower.”

“Creek Dancer - The answer is 2 or 3 hot showers. I seem to remember hot showers at Dean Cow and Baldy Camp. But I am thinking we had them at Ponil also.

I would heat up water for a complete sponge bath every other day. I used wipes the rest of the time. I really like to feel clean when I change in the evening. Also, FYI we had outhouses at every camp. (Which reminds me, take extra TP. Philmont doesn't allot enough).

There were a lot of females at Philmont, both as participants and as rangers. All the rangers at Philmont were cool! They each had a keen sense of humor and were "in character."”

“I was at Philmont last summer with both of my sons. Great Trip! Our trek started in the south and ended in the north. We did the Tooth of Time and Baldy. I think it was listed at 92 miles. Got stuck out on the tooth in a lighting storm. We did the donkeys. I didn't like them. Our crew had a fast pace and the donkeys really slowed us down. Slow enough that we missed one of our activities because we got into camp too late. We did the activity the next morning but, it really thru off our schedule. We had one shower on the trail but, it was at a food pick-up about 3 miles from our camp. It felt great but, the "freshness" didn't last very long. Feel free to email or post any questions.”

“Phil, the boys liked the outhouses. pilot to co-pilot was the favorite !”

“spikehiker - The pilot to co-pilot was interesting!...and outdoors too!

Regarding the burros again. Our trek was 55 -60 miles, so we had time to mess with the burros. For a longer mileage trek, I could see canceling the burro. Regardless, we wanted to get the most out of our trip and the burro seemed to help us do that.

I prefer the shorter treks so you have a better shot at getting to your camp before noon to check in. That makes life a lot easier. You get your campsite assignment and activity time BEFORE the rangers disappear for lunch so you can pitch camp, relax for lunch, and get the earlier activity times.

I'm getting nastalgic just talking about this again!”