Debate 10/5

“Come on, Cheney actually looked alive. I think he atleast deserves a sympathy vote. Until tonight I thought GW was pulling a Weekend at Bernies on us.”

“I am LH, 10,000,000 times. I love the internet.”

“Bob Dole had the dignity to resign from the Senate rather than be an absentee Senator. Kerry has been an absentee Senator for 20 years.

It is not a non-issue.”

“The district in which I teach gets zero money from No Child Left Behind.

What we do get are mandatory performance targets with zero funding.

We also get certification requirements with zero funding.

I thought the Republicans were against unfunded mandates.

Under NCLB, I would be considered unqualified to teach in my minor area from college. However, because I have a master's degree that had NOTHING to do with that subject area, I am now highly qualified in that subject area.

My fiance needs to achieve a minor in science to teach science classes. She is now taking four science classes that have NOTHING to do with the subjects she teaches so that she can teach those subjects and the "highly qualified" designation.

NCLB requires useless, unrelated training for teachers.

If we have lower performing class move through, our Annual Yearly Progress goes down. If we get a particularly smart crew, our AYP goes up. It has a lot to do with the kids.

Last year, the results of our tests showed that all 100 kids who took the test refused the answer the exact same three questions, but they did all the rest. We got no results for it. Our kids all said they answered the question, but the scoring mechanism didn't reflect it. Our AYP was based on that test.

So, give us high standards, but do it in a way that makes sense.”

“bbw, do you think it is ok for Cheney to work for a companyto who worked with countries who are enemies of the US.

he didn't even try to answer that when it put to him. He changed the subject because he knew he couldn't answer.”

“birch, you voting 10,000,000 times, that has something to do with disabling the "cookies" right, lol. Ah, ha!!!”

“sorry, guys, for the typos. It's past my bedtime. 5AM wakeup. Eeeks.”

“John Kerry and John Edwards will:

Meet Our Responsibilities To Our Schools
John Kerry and John Edwards will establish a National Education Trust Fund to ensure that schools always get the funding they need. They will also ensure that No Child Left Behind works for schools, states, and teachers by rewarding those who meet higher standards and rewarding schools that turn around and improve.

I'm sorry but this statement just sounds like Kerry feels he can do a better job at enforcing Bush's policies. Maybe I don't understand how a trust fund works either, but I would think that if you wanted to fix the education system you would give them funding rather than dangle it out like a prize to be won.”

“"I have alway's wondered why Kerry/Edwards bash the No Child Left Behind policy when their website states they want to hold our education system to the standards that it set for them......"


Because they refuse to fund it. Here you have a situation where the Feds are telling the States what to do with thier system. The States are in charge of thier programs, not the Feds. Now, what happened was that the Feds said "Do this or you lose some funding" to the states. By funding educational programs, the Feds "buy" power from the states. What the Dick and Bush show did was strong arm the States into complying, which doesn't generate a lot of warm feelings, but is still very much in line with Uncle Dick and Mr. Bush's mantra "It's our way for #&%!$ Off!"


Also, and maybe RL could chime in to ass or clairify, It's my understanding that as a district, you only want to make enough progress, so that there is room for future progress. Example:

District A has an AYP grade of let's say 96%, which would be concidered pretty good. Next year, they go up to a 98%, but the following year they drop back down to the 96%. Although htey made progress the last year, the following year they went down and would be deemed "failing" and placed on probation. If they should drop to 95.5%, then the heads would start a rolling....”

“"Also, and maybe RL could chime in to ass or clairify....."


Cripes! I'm loosing it! Should read " to ADD or clarify".

Sleepie time!”

“Instead, NCLB has an implied threat that if the AYP is not achieved, funding will be cut.

So, take all the failing schools and remove their resources.

NCLB is good. Unfunded mandates are bad. Kicking schools and kids while they're down is really bad.

Bush=Unfunded Mandates”

“I thought they both did well. If I were to try and step back and be non-partisan, I think Cheney got the best of Edwards, but Edwards held his own quite well. Cheney came across as wise, Edwards as enthusiastic and charming. Oh that Edwards, he's so HOT. hot Hot HOT! OooOOoo la la! One thing that struck me was that Edwards seemed to come across so negative about everything, nothing was going good at all... nada, zip, zilch, zero, as if this country was unraveling and Edwards was about ready to scream to the audience, "QUICK, HEAD FOR THE EXITS, THIS COUNTRY IS GOING DOWN HARD!!! RUN FOR YOUR LIVES, RIGHT NOW... SHE'S GONNA @#$@ BLOW!!!"”

“Where do you guys find these post-debate online polls? I go to the sites, CNN, ABC, FOX NEWS, etc., and I don't see anything saying "instant debate polling results) or anything?”

“The best thing for a district to do is score REALLY badly in the first year.

Then, they need to score just a little bit better the next year. Then a little bit better in the next three years.

The result is a gradually improving AYP.

A school that scores consistently well will show no progress. NCLB penalizes this severely.

The goal is 100% compliance in about ten years.

The unfortunate thing is that a standardized test that has 100% passage will be considered too easy. It will be toughened up. So, you create a moving target that ultimately can never be reached.”

“laqtis, ass or clarify? That is too funny. I couldn't figure that one out and was thinking I'm tired too I guess and should go to bed, lol :)”

“Wow, the pundits (and they're liberal Matthews etc...) Really think Cheney kicked Edwards ass.”

“All I know about schooling is that I know way too many people that can't spell 3 letter words, and graduated high school.”

“I'm sorry but your facts are WRONG.

What he said is just NOT true.”

“Mmmmmmmmmm...that's virtually the only thing I remember about the debate is both saying the other's facts were wrong.”

“Interesting debate last night. Did I think Cheney whooped Edwards? Yes. Did I think Cheney was a grumpy turd? Yes.

"No Child Left Behind" is a joke by the way. Ask any teacher.”

“My mom's a teacher (fifth grade), she thinks "No Child Left Behind" is one of the best things to happen to education, as a matter of fact that's one of the reason's she'll be voting Republican for the first time ever (for President). I've heard from other teachers, such as one of my best friend's who lives in Washington state that it's worked wonders also. I suppose there has to be some component of an individual school's circumstances that colors people's views on the law.”

“Interesting that you have that perspective, Bison. I can't say that I've ever heard anyone here who feels that way about it. I wish my wife was here to defend her views, and what I hear from her friends.”

“WASHINGTON, DC – The non-partisan federal Government Accountability Office (GAO) concluded in a new report issued today that unless the Bush Department of Education takes specific internal steps outlined by GAO, states may not be able to meet important No Child Left Behind (NCLB) standards and assessment systems requirements by the law’s 2005-06 deadline.

GAO Faults Bush Administration on Implementation of No Child Left Behind Act

WASHINGTON, DC – Because Congress and President Bush have under-funded the historic No Child Left Behind Act, millions of children across the country are not getting the education services they have been promised, such as additional in-class instruction, critical services like after-school programs, and better teacher quality.

“Providing public schools adequate funding is a critical component in our bi-partisan effort to ensure that all children have the opportunity to succeed in school,” said Congressman George Miller (D-CA), the senior Democrat on the Education and Workforce Committee and a principal author of the No Child Left Behind Act.

“Congress and President Bush proudly promised schools that if they enacted challenging new reforms to hold themselves accountable for the education of each of their children, that substantial new federal funds would be made available to them to help them carry out this new mission.

“Well, the reforms are being put in place, but the money schools were promised is not.

State-by-State Report Shows Negative Effects of Underfunding No Child Left Behind Act

Alabama did not get $147 million in public school funding last year promised by Congress and the President, including $90 million for extra academic support for low-income students, $11 million for critical after-school programs, and $6 million to raise teacher quality.

Alaska did not get $37 million in public school funding last year promised by Congress and the President, including $19 million for extra academic support for low-income students, $4 million for critical after-school programs, and $2 million to raise teacher quality.

Arizona did not get $182 million in public school funding last year promised by Congress and the President, including $104 million for extra academic support for low-income students, $13 million for critical after-school programs, and $6 million to raise teacher quality.

Arkansas did not get $84 million in public school funding last year promised by Congress and the President, including $52 million for extra academic support for low-income students, $7 million for critical after-school programs, and $3 million to raise teacher quality.

California did not get $1.3 billion in public school funding last year promised by Congress and the President, including $898 million for extra academic support for low-income students, $103 million for critical after-school programs, and $47 million to raise teacher quality.

Colorado did not get $96 million in public school funding last year promised by Congress and the President, including $54 million for extra academic support for low-income students, $7 million for critical after-school programs, and $4 million to raise teacher quality.

Connecticut did not get $80 million in public school funding last year promised by Congress and the President, including $47 million for extra academic support for low-income students, $6 million for critical after-school programs, and $3 million to raise teacher quality.

District of Columbia did not get $44 million in public school funding last year promised by Congress and the President, including $28 million for extra academic support for low-income students, $4 million for critical after-school programs, and $2 million to raise teacher quality.

Delaware did not get $32 million in public school funding last year promised by Congress and the President, including $19 million for extra academic support for low-income students, $4 million for critical after-school programs, and $2 million to raise teacher quality.

Florida did not get $500 million in public school funding last year promised by Congress and the President, including $313 million for extra academic support for low-income students, $35 million for critical after-school programs, and $17 million to raise teacher quality.

Georgia did not get $283 million in public school funding last year promised by Congress and the President, including $180 million for extra academic support for low-income students, $22 million for critical after-school programs, and $10 million to raise teacher quality.

Hawaii did not get $47 million in public school funding last year promised by Congress and the President, including $22 million for extra academic support for low-income students, $4 million for critical after-school programs, and $2 million to raise teacher quality.

Idaho did not get $38 million in public school funding last year promised by Congress and the President, including $22 million for extra academic support for low-income students, $4 million for critical after-school programs, and $2 million to raise teacher quality.

Illinois did not get $409 million in public school funding last year promised by Congress and the President, including $265 million for extra academic support for low-income students, $31 million for critical after-school programs, and $13 million to raise teacher quality.

Indiana did not get $131 million in public school funding last year promised by Congress and the President, including $80 million for extra academic support for low-income students, $10 million for critical after-school programs, and $5 million to raise teacher quality.

Iowa did not get $51 million in public school funding last year promised by Congress and the President, including $29 million for extra academic support for low-income students, $4 million for critical after-school programs, and $2 million to raise teacher quality.

Kansas did not get $66 million in public school funding last year promised by Congress and the President, including $39 million for extra academic support for low-income students, $5 million for critical after-school programs, and $3 million to raise teacher quality.

Kentucky did not get $123 million in public school funding last year promised by Congress and the President, including $81 million for extra academic support for low-income students, $10 million for critical after-school programs, and $5 million to raise teacher quality.

Louisiana did not get $200 million in public school funding last year promised by Congress and the President, including $137 million for extra academic support for low-income students, $16 million for critical after-school programs, and $8 million to raise teacher quality.

Maine did not get $24 million in public school funding last year promised by Congress and the President, including $24 million for extra academic support for low-income students, $4 million for critical after-school programs, and $2 million to raise teacher quality.

Maryland did not get $161 million in public school funding last year promised by Congress and the President, including $83 million for extra academic support for low-income students, $10 million for critical after-school programs, and $5 million to raise teacher quality.

Massachusetts did not get $171 million in public school funding last year promised by Congress and the President, including $110 million for extra academic support for low-income students, $13 million for critical after-school programs, and $6 million to raise teacher quality.

Michigan did not get $299 million in public school funding last year promised by Congress and the President, including $197 million for extra academic support for low-income students, $23 million for critical after-school programs, and $10 million to raise teacher quality.

Minnesota did not get $91 million in public school funding last year promised by Congress and the President, including $49 million for extra academic support for low-income students, $6 million for critical after-school programs, and $4 million to raise teacher quality.

Mississippi did not get $116 million in public school funding last year promised by Congress and the President, including $75 million for extra academic support for low-income students, $9 million for critical after-school programs, and $5 million to raise teacher quality.

Missouri did not get $140 million in public school funding last year promised by Congress and the President, including $87 million for extra academic support for low-income students, $11 million for critical after-school programs, and $6 million to raise teacher quality.

Montana did not get $38 million in public school funding last year promised by Congress and the President, including $21 million for extra academic support for low-income students, $4 million for critical after-school programs, and $2 million to raise teacher quality.

Nebraska did not get $43 million in public school funding last year promised by Congress and the President, including $24 million for extra academic support for low-income students, $4 million for critical after-school programs, and $2 million to raise teacher quality.

Nevada did not get $61 million in public school funding last year promised by Congress and the President, including $33 million for extra academic support for low-income students, $4 million for critical after-school programs, and $2 million to raise teacher quality.

New Hampshire did not get $31 million in public school funding last year promised by Congress and the President, including $17 million for extra academic support for low-income students, $4 million for critical after-school programs, and $2 million to raise teacher quality.

New Jersey did not get $209 million in public school funding last year promised by Congress and the President, including $122 million for extra academic support for low-income students, $15 million for critical after-school programs, and $7 million to raise teacher quality.

New Mexico did not get $98 million in public school funding last year promised by Congress and the President, including $57 million for extra academic support for low-income students, $7 million for critical after-school programs, and $3 million to raise teacher quality.

New York did not get $966 million in public school funding last year promised by Congress and the President, including $664 million for extra academic support for low-income students, $73 million for critical after-school programs, and $24 million to raise teacher quality.

North Carolina did not get $230 million in public school funding last year promised by Congress and the President, including $137 million for extra academic support for low-income students, $17 million for critical after-school programs, and $9 million to raise teacher quality.

North Dakota did not get $17 million in public school funding last year promised by Congress and the President, including $17 million for extra academic support for low-income students, $4 million for critical after-school programs, and $2 million to raise teacher quality.

Ohio did not get $310 million in public school funding last year promised by Congress and the President, including $196 million for extra academic support for low-income students, $23 million for critical after-school programs, and $12 million to raise teacher quality.

Oklahoma did not get $129 million in public school funding last year promised by Congress and the President, including $64 million for extra academic support for low-income students, $8 million for critical after-school programs, and $4 million to raise teacher quality.

Oregon did not get $98 million in public school funding last year promised by Congress and the President, including $62 million for extra academic support for low-income students, $8 million for critical after-school programs, and $3 million to raise teacher quality.

Pennsylvania did not get $337 million in public school funding last year promised by Congress and the President, including $217 million for extra academic support for low-income students, $25 million for critical after-school programs, and $12 million to raise teacher quality..

Rhode Island did not get $23 million in public school funding last year promised by Congress and the President, including $23 million for extra academic support for low-income students, $4 million for critical after-school programs, and $2 million to raise teacher quality.

South Carolina did not get $80 million in public school funding last year promised by Congress and the President, including $81 million for extra academic support for low-income students, $10 million for critical after-school programs, and $5 million to raise teacher quality.

South Dakota did not get $34 million in public school funding last year promised by Congress and the President, including $21 million for extra academic support for low-income students, $4 million for critical after-school programs, and $2 million to raise teacher quality.

Tennessee did not get $160 million in public school funding last year promised by Congress and the President, including $97 million for extra academic support for low-income students, $12 million for critical after-school programs, and $6 million to raise teacher quality.

Texas did not get $843 million in public school funding last year promised by Congress and the President, including $548 million for extra academic support for low-income students, $66 million for critical after-school programs, and $30 million to raise teacher quality.

Utah did not get $53 million in public school funding last year promised by Congress and the President, including $24 million for extra academic support for low-income students, $4 million for critical after-school programs, and $2 million to raise teacher quality.

Vermont did not get $27 million in public school funding last year promised by Congress and the President, including $16 million for extra academic support for low-income students, $4 million for critical after-school programs, and $2 million to raise teacher quality.

Virginia did not get $195 million in public school funding last year promised by Congress and the President, including $88 million for extra academic support for low-income students, $12 million for critical after-school programs, and $6 million to raise teacher quality.

Washington did not get $147 million in public school funding last year promised by Congress and the President, including $79 million for extra academic support for low-income students, $10 million for critical after-school programs, and $6 million to raise teacher quality.

West Virginia did not get $66 million in public school funding last year promised by Congress and the President, including $46 million for extra academic support for low-income students, $6 million for critical after-school programs, and $2 million to raise teacher quality.

Wisconsin did not get $128 million in public school funding last year promised by Congress and the President, including $78 million for extra academic support for low-income students, $9 million for critical after-school programs, and $5 million to raise teacher quality.

Wyoming did not get $31 million in public school funding last year promised by Congress and the President, including $17 million for extra academic support for low-income students, $4 million for critical after-school programs, and $2 million to raise teacher quality.”

“So-Called No Child Left Behind Law
Needs Fixing Before Expanding
Washington, D.C. - Policymakers should be focused on fixing and funding the so-called No Child Left Behind law. Instead, they are being called upon to compound the inefficiencies of the current law with additional bureaucratic testing requirements, said the National Education Association (NEA) President, Reg Weaver.

The President put forth a plan for expanding the so-called No Child Left Behind law to testing for three more grades, from third to eleventh instead of the already mandated third to eighth. He also announced a plan for testing high school students before they earn a diploma at a public high school.

The President's announced plan to expand the so-called No Child Left Behind law comes at an interesting time. Lately, teachers and parents find the current law's use of one-size-fits-all tests to determine whether a school is labeled as failing to be a major flaw that needs fixing.

"There are critical flaws in this law that both Republicans and Democrats have said need to be fixed," NEA President Reg Weaver said. More than 30 state legislatures - some with Republican majorities - have either passed or proposed state policies that call for changes in the law. "We should be talking about ways to create smaller class sizes, hire and retain high-quality teachers in the classroom and invest in up-to-date resources for all students. Not pile on yet another high-stakes test."

"The new plan would be redundant since about half of all states have exit exams already in place, and would invest precious education funds into yet another unnecessary test," Weaver said.

He pointed out that a similar situation was present with the proposal of the so-called No Child Left Behind two years ago. At that time about half of all states already had accountability systems in place. As a result, once the law was passed, it added an unnecessary layer of bureaucracy and created confusion for parents, teachers and school officials trying to navigate the difference between state and federal labeling of their schools.

"We need to be circumspect as we consider the new proposals presented by the President. When a prescription drug has negative side effects, the government forbids the sale of the drug until the company can make it safe for patients," Weaver said. "In that same vein, when there is an education law that doesn't work, we should hold off on expanding it until we can diagnose the negative effects on children and students, parents, teachers and education support professionals and develop a prescription that will bring a quality public education and great public schools to every child."”

“NO CHILD WILL BE LEFT BEHIND WHEN…
No child will be left behind when all parents become partners in the education of their children. Education does not occur in the vacuum of the classroom; it must be cherished and reinforced in the home. Until the entire citizenry demonstrates that education matters, divergent values will contaminate the best efforts in the classroom.

No child will be left behind when educators truly get the message that many well-meaning parents are truly turned off by school bureaucracy. Educators must creatively develop the means to engage those parents. Some parents never have overcome negative experiences they had as students; others are intimidated by an academic inferiority complex. Educators sometimes unwittingly stoke the invisible flames that interfere with meaningful home-school partnerships by the insensitive use of educational jargon, or by the emission of a subliminal aura of condescension. In the book Beyond the Classroom, sociologist Laurence Steinberg's 5-year study of schools in middle America, he found that up to 40 percent of parents totally detached from their children's education after sixth grade. Reason would dictate that that percentage is significantly higher in urban areas.

No child will be left behind when government and business leaders recognize the "9/91" factor. Coined by conservative George Will in a January, 2002, column (Waiting for Real Education Reform), the 9/91 factor points out that from birth to age nineteen, ninety-one percent of a child's life is spent outside the boundaries of the schoolhouse. Until an open, substantial dialogue about that fact takes place, any legislatively mandated timetable for universal proficiency is as reasonable as my walking on water.

No child will be left behind when we no longer have dysfunctional families or troubled children. When Jerry Springer's guest book dries up; when children are freed from physical and psychological abuse, depression, anxiety, and bipolar and oppositional defiant disorders; when the array of psychological baggage that affects a growing, percentage of our students across all demographic descriptors is eliminated; then, all children will be free to learn.

No child will be left behind when poverty is a thing of the past. When students no longer have to deal with hunger, fear of crime in their neighborhoods, or any of the myriad problems that arise when unemployed or under-employed adults head their households, students will come to school ready to learn. Nearly forty years ago, Lyndon Johnson initiated the "War on Poverty" with the same vigor George W. Bush has applied to launching NCLB. The paucity of essential resources that a sizeable number of Americans endure testifies to difficulty of solving many of society's problems -- even in the face of the most determined government endeavors.

No child will be left behind when the consummate mass of educators, business leaders, government policy makers, and other interested segments of society realize that quality education is much more than test scores; that laying foundations for future learning involves more than just teaching reading, writing, and mathematics.

The paramount goal of public education needs to be to inspire among all students a sense of passion about the direction their lives can take. To meet that objective, all classroom instructors would have to invest themselves in understanding their students diverse learning styles; they would have to allow students to access their own strengths while working consistently to diminish their weaknesses. Such an effort, however, would require only a modicum of testing to keep vigilance over the basics. It would, moreover, remove the figurative sword of Damocles from above each student's head; frustration with NCLB's "all or nothing" proficiency demands will, I'm afraid, increase the dropout rate.”

“but enough of that.

Impressions. Cheney did a good job of attacking attendance records. Interesting enough, Edwards did a good job of attacking voting records.

I didn't see a clear cut winner in the debate, but thoroughly enjoyed the rhetoric. I think it will be interesting to see what develops in the debate on Friday.”

“I didn't realize that Cleveland had a 31% poverty rate, but I do know that in my county where I live over 50% of the children qualify for free or reduced lunches.

There is no industry within an hour's commute. Everyone is either retired, or driving at least an hour to find work. We've seen company after company close their doors and move to Mexico and other places. Outsourcing is good? Not here. I'm surprised to see the Republicans continue to think it is good. In 70 years, every single president has seen an increase in available jobs during their tenure. Only this president has seen the reverse. Added 1.4M new jobs? Really? Where.

Just my rant for the morning. That's one of my hot buttons.”

“Have a good morning. :) I need to get to work, and keep the job I have.”

“Even as one of the nation's best trial lawyers, Edwards could not explain the inexplicable - the deficiencies of Kerry's record. Edwards failed as a credible advocate for John Kerry last night and Dick Cheney proved that substance will always trump spin. There's no evidence that John Kerry has any convictions - despite Edwards' best attempt at political spin.

Every time Edwards had an opportunity to explain John Kerry's record to the American people, he chose to attack the Vice President, and his low moment came 40 minutes into the debate when a befuddled-looking John Edwards latched onto Halliburton - a political attack proven false by the nonpartisan FactCheck.org. Read the article here: www.FactCheck.org/article.aspx?docid=261.

In Edwards' defense, he was put in the position of defending the indefensible. He didn't get to pick John Kerry; John Kerry picked him.

Vice President Cheney won the debate last night and these quotes sum it up best:

"So they, in effect, decided they would cast an anti-war vote, and they voted against the troops. Now, if they couldn't stand up to the pressures that Howard Dean represented, how can we expect them to stand up to Al Qaeda?"

"I'm up in the Senate most Tuesdays when they're in session. The first time I ever met you was when you walked on the stage tonight."”

“The morning after you have to say Cheney definitely had the more memorable lines, which for better or worse is what you really want to do in a debate.

One interesting note, why didn't someone tell Cheney not to lean over and obstruct his microphone, it wasn't a big deal, but his speech was muffled alot.”

“I have worked in education for 11 years, my wife is a 7th grade math teacher, 99% of her friends are educators and not one of them, her or myself feel that NCLB is a good thing. It's very flawed, such as the statement from bison that his mom will be voting for Bush in part of NCLB. What a crock. Anything that is said against Bush, you say it's wrong and that it's all good. I seriously doubt anything that you are posting lately. It lacks merit. It will be very interesting is see what happens on this board after the next couple of weeks pass. Either we'll have 4 more years of complants due to Bush, or we'll see 4 years of the Right going back on the offensive and attaking Kerry and being sore losers.”

“I actually formulated an iota of repect for Cheney when he refused to throw his daughter under the bus for his political and financial interests. Then I remembered all the other sons and daughters he threw under the bus to attain his political and financial goals, at thier expense, and the iota disappeared.

When I was sitting, thousands of people laughed at Cheney. :)”

“Are you trying to tell me that me that I don't know what my mom, a teacher for over 30 years, and her friends, who are also teachers, have to say about NCLB? Talk about a crock.
I'm not denying that there may be problems with it in some areas, and I posted as such, and I expect that teachers in schools that have different circumstances may very well have a vastly different view from the teachers at my mom's school (Sterling Elementary in Sterling, VA if you feel the need to call them up and interview them). But don't try to tell me what my own mother says about it. She's happy that when the kids get to fifth grade now they can actually speak english and understand the concepts that she's trying to teach.”

“I thought it was a tie.

It was clear that if Bush were to have a serious run in with a pretzel, nothing would change in the administration (not that I think no change would be a good thing).”

“I'm kinda curious how Kerry and Edwards are going to hire, train and house and feed all the new troops and special forces they want plus, build wonderful new armed forces housing for the wives, without raising taxes on the average American? I think new housing would be wonderful, and maybe a raise or two also, but how're they gonna do it w/o taxing?”

“Edwards did remarkably well in his delivery, as he didn't have much to work with. His trial lawyer experience obviously proved of great value in sounding convincing while remaining characteristically ambiguous. Cheney had the bulk of the substance on his side, and could have done a better job presenting it. He slouched too much and wasn't as energetic as Edwards, though he did come across as being very intelligent.

Tie.”

“Kerry voted for NCLB.”

“I think there is a difference. I've seen several people make comments regarding voting records.

When we say that someone votes for something -- lots of ideas sound good when they are voted for, and I am sure that most have good intentions.

The fact that Kerry voted for NCLB?I don't doubt that he did, because it sounded good - but it was not executed or funded.

In fact, I was all in favor of the war when Bush proposed it. From the fact presented, it sounded good, and it made sense - but it has not been executed well.

Does that make me a flip-flopper? No, I just think it's having the courage to admit when my opinion has changed as a result of new information.

The fact that Bush/Cheney continue to link 9/11 to the Iraq war is getting under my skin badly.”

“A friend of mine just sent me this email, after reading my rant.

Michigan says if Bush/Cheney are re-elected there will be no jobs left in Michigan.

I have a couple of friends who are teachers and have listened to the "no child left behind" issues - they are not happy campers.

Outsourcing - our governor just voided a contract the state had with a company in India to do our welfare stuff - can you imagine what happened when we found out it had been going on for some time?? Guess we'll have a new governor this year.

In Indiana - we are not seeing any jobs being created other than a hand full here or there - very small companies mostly in the service area. That’s why I must get back to work too :-) Have a good day.”

“Whether you like it or not, what can be construed as flip-flopping is a lot more commonplace than it is given credit for. You just hear more about during election times during campaigns, in an effort to discredit the other party. But, yes, circumstances change all the time and the original line of thought changes. Cheney went back as far as the mid 80's in exemplifying Kerry votes. You may also hear a man like Cheney (out of the other side of his mouth) say that the world is different now. It's a post 9/11 world. So, if that reasoning can apply to the critisism that is leveled at the current administration, then why can't it apply to a vote from 1984?”

“"a serious run-in with a pretzel," LOL!!

i hate to say it, but as for demeanor and well-spoken-ness (i doubt that's a word), i think Cheney won. boooooo!! Edwards seemed abrasive and nanny-nanny-boo-boo to me. i'm not talking about their politics, just the way they came off. Edwards seemed insecure to me, maybe he just doesn't like public speaking? anyway, i'm still voting for Kerry, of course.”

“I'm up in the Senate most Tuesdays when they're in session. The first time I ever met you was when you walked on the stage tonight.""
prosecutor
07:08:05 AM
10/06/04


That comment was a diversion because Cheney couldn't answer the question that Edwards through out.”

“"The fact that Bush/Cheney continue to link 9/11 to the Iraq war is getting under my skin badly."

SecretDisorder
08:13:51 AM
10/06/04

The fact that Kerry/Edwards try to confuse the American people into believing that Iraq has nothing to do with the war on terror just because Saddam wasn't involved in 9/11 really gets under mine. They want to make it seem like it'll all be good when we capture Bin Laden. Horse#&%!$. It's about a hell of lot more than Al Qaeda. On MSNBC last night Chris Matthews was trying to use a quote in which it was clear that Cheney (an earlier quote from Meet The Press) was saying exactly this, Matthews tried to somehow interpret that to mean the Cheney was saying that Saddam was involved with 9/11, which isn't at all what Cheney was saying. Maybe liberals and conservatives just speak a different language from each other.”

“"I'm up in the Senate most Tuesdays when they're in session. The first time I ever met you was when you walked on the stage tonight.""
prosecutor
07:08:05 AM
10/06/04

That comment was a diversion because Cheney couldn't answer the question that Edwards through out."

Ewker
08:26:25 AM
10/06/04

In this case you're right Ewker but this is politics and in two weeks you won't remember that question, but you will remeber Cheney's line.”

“"Kerry voted for NCLB....."

Yep, but he didn't vote to under fund it. Also, let's see what was attached to the NCLB as well.


bison - Don't get defensive. It seems that you are always the only one that is "Making a good living" or "My Mom loves NCLB", or "My health care is great". I just seems to be quite a coincidence that while the country is getting flushed, you got a life preserver. You are the only person that I have ran into that has said NCLB is great just the way it is. Me thinks you are a little addicted to the "flame war".”

“"The fact that Kerry/Edwards try to confuse the American people into believing that Iraq has nothing to do with the war on terror just because Saddam wasn't involved in 9/11 really gets under mine...."


Wholly cow! This coming from a person that stood there for days on this board shouting the "fact" that there was a connection and proclaimed that it was even in the 9/11 commisson report!”

“No Laqtis, we live in two different areas of the country and circumstances here are much different from the circumstances where you live. We can certainly debate all day about why those differences exist if you like.”

“Compare that to the words of Vice President Dick Cheney (news - web sites), in a speech on Aug. 26, 2002, 6 1/2 months before the invasion:


"Simply stated, there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction," he said. "There is no doubt he is amassing them to use against our friends, against our allies and against us."


The president made similar charges, laying out in an Oct. 7, 2002, speech what he described as Iraq's threat:


_"It possesses and produces chemical and biological weapons. It is seeking nuclear weapons."


_"We've also discovered through intelligence that Iraq has a growing fleet of manned and unmanned aerial vehicles that could be used to disperse chemical or biological weapons across broad areas."


_"Iraq possesses ballistic missiles with a likely range of hundreds of miles — far enough to strike Saudi Arabia, Israel, Turkey and other nations — in a region where more than 135,000 American civilians and service members live and work. "





What U.S. forces found:

_A single artillery shell filled with two chemicals that, when mixed while the shell was in flight, would have created sarin. U.S. forces learned of it only when insurgents, apparently believing it was filled with conventional explosives, tried to detonate it as a roadside bomb in May in Baghdad. Two U.S. soldiers suffered from symptoms of low-level exposure to the nerve agent. The shell was from Saddam's pre-1991 stockpile.

_Another old artillery shell, also rigged as a bomb and found in May, showed signs it once contained mustard agent.

_Two small rocket warheads, turned over to Polish troops by an informer, that showed signs they once were filled with sarin.

_Centrifuge parts buried in a former nuclear scientist's garden in Baghdad. These were part of Saddam's pre-1991 nuclear program, which was dismantled after the 1991 Persian Gulf War (news - web sites). The scientist also had centrifuge design documents.

_A vial of live botulinum toxin, which can be used as a biological weapon, in another scientist's refrigerator. The scientist said it had been there since 1993.

_Evidence of advanced design work on a liquid-propellant missile with ranges of up to 620 miles. Since the 1991 Gulf War, Iraq had been prohibited from having missiles with ranges longer than 93 miles.

The Iraq Survey Group did not deal with whether Saddam's government had contacts with members of the al-Qaida network, a matter that remains subject to wide debate.”

“

He's got cute kids, don't you think?”

“"Wholly cow! This coming from a person that stood there for days on this board shouting the "fact" that there was a connection and proclaimed that it was even in the 9/11 commisson report!"

laqtis
08:36:13 AM
10/06/04

Excuse me! Laqtis what are you smoking (and maybe this is where the different language thing comes into play). I have never, ever, ever, stated any such notion the Saddam was involved in 9/11 (neither has the President by the way). There is a distinction here, 9/11 does not equal Al Qaeda. 9/11 was an attack, Al Qaeda is the organization that carried out that attack, without assistance from Saddam. Just because Saddam was not involved with that particular attack by Al Qaeda does not mean that there were not contacts between the two. Those contacts are detailed in the commissions report.”