Oil economics

“There aren't any easy answers and there's nothing out there that I've read about that can replace oil. Affordable oil and natural gas keeps the world economies moving and built them to this point to begin with. The problem is finding replacements before they get expensive enough to cause the world economies to weaken too much and results in countries going to war over what is left.

All the alternatives have lots of problems and there's no magic bullet out there.

Even if you build massive solar and wind plants you still would need fossil fuels as a back up when the sun isn't shining or the wind calm. Cost effective, battery and storage technology is still decades away. In order to offset a 10% reduction in U.S. petroleum consumption, the amount of installed solar and wind energy systems would have to be increased by 2,200%.”

“A six hour day of clean insolation on 20- 225W panels will drive a Tesla 100 miles. That's 27KWH and a car that 0-60s in 4 seconds - let's look at something made for efficiency next time. haha”

“Well we don't have to switch to a post-oil situation just yet. We should be looking to reduce consumption and ramp-up the alternatives though.

Combination vehicles like hybrids are the way forward - allow them to be plugged or solar charged to carry out the mostly short distances people drive every day, then fill the gas tank should you need to drive to grandma's.

Basically the rising costs are going to dive the alternatives anyway.
last edited: 2/02/08 7:30:33 PM”

“Fred had the right idea.

”

“Unless they get similar money that big oil gets now and has for years. Same money and tax breaks for alternatives would go a long way to making them quite affordable.”

“Why does everything have to come from the other side of the world? You better start thinking about the power that fact has over the control you have over your own life and while on the subject look at those that have imposed this mess on you.”

“I agree with most of your assessments RichB, but if our government yanked every NICKEL that we give to oil and coal comapnies away from those companies, and made those companies actually pay TAXES. That money, invested in R&D would propel program timetables from 20 years to 2 or 3 years. I'd much rather see the money spent for this rich man's war used extensively on creating an infrastructure of solar/wind-powered compressed air (yeah, there is a dude out there that invented a car run off of compressed air)/hydrogen stations across the country. Imagine the jobs it would create, and the cheaper fuel due to competition.

People could also start walking and riding thier bikes, but then they'd have to get off thier lazy arses.

Buy Local.
Buy American Made.
Buy Union Made.
And throw a sweatshirt on in the winter and turn your heat down for Pete's Sake!”

“A friend of mine is an architect in town and just built a hydrogen fuel station for the local power utility. The roof of the structure is all photovoltaic cells. He said it covers about 70% of the eletrical costs to strip off the hydrogen atom from the water. Seems like a pretty plausible solution.”

“And throw a sweatshirt on in the winter and turn your heat down for Pete's Sake!”
Buddha Bear
10:50:43 AM
2/03/08
I thought I told you to stay away from my wife! I wondered where she was getting these ideas.”

“Home grown vegetable oil diesel will not replace petroleum but will supplant some of the imported oil. It will also make money for Americans who produce and process it.

Bio Diesel can be produced and processed and consumed locally in cooperative fashion much like dairy has been for a long time.
Some of America's unused family farm acreage can be put to use and make profits for those families.

Sku-Rew Big Oil!!”

“Big Oil packs a Big Punch, so it will take a lot of work to get the bastards to release the stranglehold they have on us.”

“Some day the old and the homeless will supply bio-diesel for the more mobile travelers.”

“don't get me wrong. i think the whole h2 thing is peachy and if i could snap my fingers and make the change tomorrow i would be all for it. i just see this as a change that is going to take place on a time scale longer than the remainder of my life. the concept of cheap transportation touches almost every level of our society. i still see cars on the road that were made 20 years ago...

bio-diesel does make sense to me. it can kind of use the existing delivery infrastructure and people are used to the concept of a fuel that is a liquid at room temps. one problem is that bio-diesel is hygroscopic meaning it attracts water so the delivery system has to be very water tight (same problem with ethanol). the current fuel delivery network is NOT. so a change to bio-diesel would still require changes in the fuel delivery network.

LP gas also seems plausible. other countries use it extensively. there is the delivery infrastructure issue, of course, but a substantial infrastructure exists for LP gas today. right now about 90% of U.S. propane is domestically produced but i don't know if this would be the case if we ratcheted up demand. it is not a renewable source of energy but it might be a good "transition fuel".”

“One superbowl ad was for a new Hyundai with 375 hp.”

“A 375 hp Hyundai...I missed that one. What's next--Kia fields a NASCAR team in response?”

“hyundaigenesis.com/

Had to check if I really heard that right.
last edited: 2/03/08 7:44:29 PM”

“Liposuction hoses will be standard in all bio-diesel models in 6 years. Let's get aunt Lucy to go with us, we won't have to stop on our way to Vegas.”

“hehe”

“I wonder what the loudest yelling TTers drive?”

“some little monster on here was recently boasting about their new car - funny mine does better than theirs with gas mileage, LOL

But I think they buy carbon credits, so it's cool. :-)”

“do you know what i hate, how the price of food has shot through the roof!

anyone tie this to ethenol subsidies? seems that there is corn oil in everything we use.”

“Whatever we use It will be a wonderful day when the middle east has to find something to do with thier oil.”

“It's not only the ethanol production that made food prices go up. Because the price of oil and natural gas have increased food costs go up as well. Fertilizers are made from oil, oil fuels the tractors in the fields, natural gas cooks the processed foods, transportation costs increase as oil go up. From what I've read, lots of farmers have to buy corn to feed dairy cows so as that goes up so will milk prices. As supplies for oil get tighter and price continues to rise, food prices will do the same.
last edited: 2/05/08 5:03:25 AM”

““do you know what i hate, how the price of food has shot through the roof!

anyone tie this to ethenol subsidies? seems that there is corn oil in everything we use.”
Pamela
3:54:30 AM
2/05/08

I think it may have more to do with transportation costs for that food.”

“but my gas price is dropping, i just paid 2.89 a gallon”

“Obama:
Calls for getting 25% of U.S. electricity from renewables by 2025. Calls for 30% of the federal government's electricity to come from renewables by 2020. Proposes investing $150 billion over 10 years in R&D for renewables, biofuels, efficiency, and other clean tech.

AND
Calls for 60 billion gallons of biofuels to be produced in the U.S. each year by 2030.

Hilary has the same position except hasn't porposed the mone for research that Obama has.

Now if they get any of this done.”

“They (opec) are setting the trap again as always. Get the price down just long enough for SUVs to rage on and for the gov. and peeps to forget all of the renewable thing and then--up goes the price again.”

“these politicians are all just telling people what they want to hear to get their votes. i mean realistically what else would you expect? yeah, i know calling for a man on the moon actually did it... but these are different times. there was a time when a president would call for something and the country would respond. now all the country is looking for is to be serviced. "ask not what your country can do for you..." well there are a lot of people that spend a lot of time doing just that. i am more than a little disillusioned, more than a little jaded when it comes to this topic. i'll admit that.
last edited: 2/05/08 7:47:03 PM”

“i spoke with a gentleman at the Scout meeting tonight, and he also believes it's the ethenol subsidies. and i didn't even bring it up, he did.

damn subsidies. danm green freaks who begged for it. why don't they just make the crap from lawn clippings and leave the farms out of it!”

“Maybe these politicians mean well, but switching to large scale biofuels isn't feasible to fuel a global economy. On a small scale like burning waste vegetable oil, it's okay, but to expect it to fuel every car, truck and tractor it would take up too much land, deforest the globe, drive up food prices or worse make food scarce and strain water supplies. It would come down to whether you want to eat or drive your car.

Consider that the political processes are entirely controlled by massive corporations in the petroleum, defense, automotive, agribusiness, construction, and media industries. Most of the things people mention here that sound favorable, like conservation, riding bikes, walking, having urban gardens, fuel efficiency standards would be at odds with the interests of these corporations. Because of that it's doubtful they will ever be aggressively pursued in a time frame fast enough to make a difference.”

“Free trade isn't so free when transportation becomes more of the control and thus the price of the Miss Named Queen of energy waste.”

“Get the fair tax in there now and it, because a 25% sales tax, will drive yankee ingenuity that would build a black market so inventive that foreign goods could never compete----get the government on your back and you'll , as always , figure a way to screw them but good. Use the failing drug war as a template.
last edited: 2/06/08 8:16:13 AM”

“Rich you forgot sitting in a circle on a mountaintop thumping drums and going OOOOM.”

“Nice grenade lob, Sargie. It think we've already been down that road of lies from which you spew. You may want to go and reread that thread. Don't bother posting anything more. I'm not interested.

Obama is riding the ethanol wave, which is a pipe dream.”

“"........damn subsidies. danm green freaks who begged for it."

I believe it's the corporate farms that "begged" for it.
After all the corporations are the ones who grease Washington with money in order to make more(with our money).

Bio Fuels are not expected to fuel "every car and truck".
The idea is to move away from the current situation where every car and truck is fueled by petroleum and give people what they want.................choice.
That would also make the limited supply of petrol last longer.”

“but the thing is, it can be done with lawn clippings and the like, stuff presently going into our landfills. we can leave farms completely out of the picture.”

“That's more of a Republican talking point than anything else.”

“Maybe I'm missing something here. How do you get oil out of lawn clippings? You need vegetable/plant matter that produces oil. Grass doesn't do it.

Hemp seed on the other hand. What about aloe? I just don't know enough about plant and vegetable oils but man, that would be a field to get into if you were starting out in school. I guess that's biochemistry?
last edited: 2/06/08 2:02:55 PM”

“Concepts like these along with conversion of vehicles to electric/hydrogen or compressed air hybrids are the answer. The wind and wave technologies have become more advanced and will play a major role as well.

I think Portugal or Spain built one of these solar thermal plants and it's generating much of the energy for a major city. We have the perfect places to do this in the States, build the plants right on old abondon missile silo ground out west.

Imagine if the politicians actually wanted to solve this problem, and reduce the costs to the citizens, and reduce our dependance on foriegn oil. Every state has the land to do it. Put up wind/solar down the middle of every highway interstate. Land = free and not being used for anything productive. The interstates go through our most populated areas, so distribution is logistically feasible. If the power generators were owned by the public, energy would be super cheap, and could be maintained by state gov't. Pay for the equipment by taxing the crap out of oil & coal company profits. If they are greedy and raise gas prices, it will drive the market toward the cheap, clean energy and electric vehicles. maybe if the Big 3 got in on the deal, it would save thier hides as well.”

“Switch grass is looking to being a "new" producer of biodiesel. Right now it takes more energy to produce the fuel than it makes.

In terms of energy output compared with energy input for ethanol production, the study found that:

* corn requires 29 percent more fossil energy than the fuel produced;
* switch grass requires 45 percent more fossil energy than the fuel produced; and
* wood biomass requires 57 percent more fossil energy than the fuel produced.

In terms of energy output compared with the energy input for biodiesel production, the study found that:

* soybean plants requires 27 percent more fossil energy than the fuel produced, and
* sunflower plants requires 118 percent more fossil energy than the fuel produced.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/07/050705231841.htm

http://bioenergy.ornl.gov/papers/misc/switgrs.html”

“then what you are telling us is that bio fuels suck. figures.”

“Eventually all will become cheaper than fossil fuels.

I wonder how many eastern mountaintops will remain after the "Clean Coal" companies (/SARC) get through with them.”

“www.edison.com/pressroom/pr.asp?id=5885

Those mountain tops get in the way when the black helicopters come after you Tilt.
last edited: 2/07/08 9:38:02 AM”

“Just get a bicycle. Muscle power!”

“Don't have muscles - Huckelberry -Norris didn't give me a free Total Gym.”

“I am saying that in the future, may be new technology will make biomass fuels more feasible. If some of the power comes from solar that will also offset the energy deficit.

I do like the used veggie oil (like from Dunkin' Donuts, McD's and the like) it is a better deal with the conversion to biodiesel.”

“The truth is trasportation takes all kinds of energy and the days of it being cheap enough to not create choices among it's other uses have passed in our wake. Trying to mobilize the rest of the world to our standards just ain't in the cards ,so, do we finally start trickling down to standards of the masses or try to fight our way into a few more mobile years?”

“Producing hydrogen via solar is quite intriguing.”

“I wonder how many eastern mountaintops will remain after the "Clean Coal" companies (/SARC) get through with them.”
Tilt
9:31:36 AM
2/07/08

Pisses me off thinking about it. I'm still a young guy, but it's amazing the change back home just since I was a kid. Everywhere you go you can see a mountain that's had at least some strip mining on it. Some are almost completely flat on top.”

“
Studies Say Clearing Land for Biofuels Will Aid Warming
By Juliet Eilperin
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, February 8, 2008; Page A05

Clearing land to produce biofuels such as ethanol will do more to exacerbate global warming than using gasoline or other fossil fuels, two scientific studies show.

The independent analyses, which will be published today in the journal Science, could force policymakers in the United States and Europe to reevaluate incentives they have adopted to spur production of ethanol-based fuels. President Bush and many members of Congress have touted expanding biofuel use as an integral element of the nation's battle against climate change, but these studies suggest that this strategy will damage the planet rather than help protect it.....

”