Oil economics

“Haulage?”

“Got silage juice?”

“lol nigal!

such a great movie.”

“I don't know lumberjack, I think I'll take the hummer over eating any day...”

“i would take a good hummer any day!”

“XLent 9/10!”

“I read an article in Time magazine yesterday about the effect biofuels are having on the environment and world food supplies. They weren't the only thing to blame for what is being called a "silent famine" starting, but it doesn't make much sense to make matters worse by using food as fuel.

"Biofuels to the Rescue?

As the world rushes to embrace biofuels as a solution, there are some obvious and immediate concerns. For corn-based ethanol, the ratio of energy returned on energy invested is marginal at best. The recent demand for ethanol has contributed to a rapid increase in the price of basic grains and a decline in global grain reserves during the past two years. There are detrimental environmental and social effects from mono-cropping corn, sugar cane and oil palms. Despite consuming 20% of the US corn crop in 2006, the resulting ethanol contributed only 3% (5 billion gallons) of the US gasoline supply. Clearly, biofuels are utterly incapable of replacing petroleum in the volumes which are required."”

“If the machines could plant , harvest and make the fuel and drive themselves around that oval they'd have no need for the humankind that worshipped their smelly ass greasy tailpipes for so many years.
last edited: 4/03/08 8:21:04 PM”

“The guys in the flying saucers go back to their planets to plan an invasion of earth to take Yosemite NP from the four wheeled earthlings and their slaves that fight wars to feed them.”

“Thank you RichB.

Finally someone who understands the truth, and doesn't buy in to this liberal media garbage.”

“Lota campaign money comes out those corn farmers pockets, Chief.”

“Despite that article coming from Time magazine they did make many points that have been raised before. The biofuels issue has been talked about for some time now and it's not hard to figure out that with an increasing world population, making fuel from the food supply is a bad idea. Besides, diverting food away from people, if information like this is accurate it doesn't sound like a very efficient fuel source.

"Water crises
According to the Stockholm International Water Institute, agricultural demand for water will double by 2050, largely due to the anticipated needs of the biofuels sector. This is an utterly crazy plan when water crises are going to be a major theme of the next 20 years. There are meetings being held this week in Cyprus, Israel and India as water supplies have become critical.

It takes around 3-4 gallons of water to produce one gallon of ethanol and using ethanol to power the average US car for one year would require a staggering 11 acres of farmland. This works out to be the same area needed to grow a year's supply of food for seven people, according to David Pimentel a leading agricultural expert from Cornell University.

It just doesn�t make sense
Pimentel calculated that an acre of US corn can be processed into about 328 gallons of ethanol. But planting, growing and harvesting that much corn requires about 140 gallons of fossil fuels and costs $347 per acre. That is $1.05 per gallon of ethanol before the corn even moves off the farm. Then there�s fermentation: as many as three distillation steps and other treatments are needed to separate the ethanol from the water.

So, adding up the total energy costs of corn production and its conversion to ethanol, 131,000 British thermal units (BTUs) are needed to make 1 gallon of ethanol, which has an energy value of only 77,000 BTU.

A net energy loss?
So, 70% more energy is required to produce ethanol than the energy actually in ethanol. Every time you make 1 gallon of ethanol, there is a net energy loss of 54,000 BTU. Fans of ethanol as a fuel need to answer just one question - if producing biofuels is so cost effective, why on earth does their production require government subsidies?"”

“Oil is better than that, but figures are almost impossible to get and the estimates vary from 34% down to 17% net energy from a gallon of gasoline. Your natural gas and electric bills are competing with the oil industry for these energy sources.

And, yes again I'm expecting someone else to do the research.
last edited: 4/04/08 10:41:44 AM”

“RichB, why on earth do the oil companies still get government subsidies?”

“I really don't know much about the details of oil company subsidies.”

“I remember watching C-span in 05, on a friday night joint energy rushed legislation. They ignored that the camera's were running and were frantic to not forget everyone they owed. They were yelling across the room about the promises they had made one another on the vote. As I remember Sessions was chairing and Domenichi was the most vocal about the promises. My suspicions about representative government were all solidified that night.”

“Ain't C-SPAN great?”

“Ft. McMurray, Alberta - With oil prices hovering near a hundred dollars a barrel, there’s a major oil boom underway. It’s not happening in the sweltering heat of Texas or the dry desert of Saudi Arabia, but on the frozen Canadian tundra where oil producers are developing a new source of fossil fuel.

It may seem like unlikely terrain for one of the biggest oil booms in recent memory. But Canada’s “oil sands” have helped make it the leading supplier to the United States.

snip

The oil — trapped in dark sticky sand — sits just below the surface of the earth waiting to be mined. Brad Bellows, a spokesman for oil company Suncor, explained that first step is to claw the oil mixed with sand out of the earth, using some monster machines.

snip

There's more oil up here in the Canadian sub-Arctic than in all of Saudi Arabia. These tar sands stretch on for about 50,000 square miles.

Oil companies have known about this region for more than half a century. But it wasn't until recently that it was worth getting the oil out of this desolate landscape.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23958032/”

“More than big mechanical mosquitos suckin' crude involved there, more coal like. If the imports carry the oil cos along until they get these sands going the internal combustion gasoline and diesel burners will survive. You don't suppose that's the intent of the silly ethenol joke?”

“The oil and coal industries are gathering strength to keep you under their thumb.”

“Brad Bellows, a spokesman for oil company Suncor, explained that first step is to claw the oil mixed with sand out of the earth, using some monster machines.

snip

Oil companies have known about this region for more than half a century. But it wasn't until recently that it was worth getting the oil out of this desolate landscape. That's because the operations that take place in these Alberta tar sand mines are complicated and expensive, and involve scooping, hauling and processing the oil sand to turn it into actual oil.

Suncor alone produces 280,000 barrel of oil a day at this mine � operating 24 hours a day, seven days a week, 365 days a year. At $28 million a day, it�s not hard to see why they don't take Christmas off.

But getting people to work in this frigid, remote part of Canada isn't easy, which is why companies pay upwards of six figures to those who drive these monster rigs. That kind of money attracts people from all walks of life.

snip

Canada [is the] single largest supplier of oil to the United States � a fact that few Americans are probably aware of.”

“Canada [is the] single largest supplier of oil to the United States.

Yup and Mexico is #2.”

“Hugo third?”

“anwar!”

“Hearing about extracting oil from tar sands and drilling several miles into the ocean floor, kind of screams peak oil is here and cheap oil is over.”

“ANWR = Arctic National Waffle Reheater.”

“With 70 -90 million none citizens living high consumption american lifestyles here, oil is being pumped faster than ever. 70-90 million ,come on- balesored.”

“No need to be sore......

......with all that oil.”

“Oil up almost two bucks, back around $110. Ain't addiction fun?”

“Oil company execs are going back to cap hill to answer questions about why refineries are operating at less than full capacity.

This is where the problem is! They (I think) are controlling the price by not running at capacity. This is where the lawmakers should come in and really regulate. The electric companies are regulated on when outages for maintenance are taken so that this doesn't happen with electric.”

“The poor refiners can't afford to be regulated, they're in their last throes. Besides we got ethenol to fill the gap.”

“The oil company's credibility gap?”

“Oil companies have no incentive to build more refineries. As oil becomes harder to find, more expensive to extract and production decreases, it's not in their best interest to build refineries.

What's in the best interest of everyone on the planet is to move quickly to make a transition to alternatives without too much pain. I'm not sure if it will be possible without a lot of pain. Oil is just still too important for now and judging from what's in going on with biofuels bad choices are being made. No silver bullets exist and with a demand for energy growing each year, this is a serious problem with no easy solution.”

“Reductions in transportation, but that is taboo in an economy that fails when an hour is lost.

In SF the amount of energy being consumed for the Olympic torch circus is unbelieveable. Every helicopter in the world is circling that affair.
last edited: 4/09/08 2:09:58 PM”

“oil from tar sands... an enviromentalists nightmare....

4.00 a gallon is on its way.”

“No silver bullets will ever be found but there is an array of choices to come.

I still like diesel as Rudolph Diesel intended...............vegetable oil fuel.........as a solution for some though certainly not all.
It is said that the best source of oil for fuel is algae which can be farmed in the sunny southwest and does not take away from food farming.

Plug-in electric can work for many people and the production of these vehicles could mean jobs and opportunities for entrepreneurs.”

“It's a shame mass transit sucks in this country.”

“The algae growing may help some when it comes online in a larger scale, but it's not being used right now enough to make a difference. If it is an option along with others, it's going to have to come quickly. Once oil gets so expensive or to the point it gets rationed or even unavailable, it's going to be too late.
The electrical grid might be a good choice for power, but building nuclear plants, dams, ocean turbines and windfarms takes time and financial backing to get online. PPL, a power company in PA., says it needs to build additional electrical grid lines due to rising demand and to avoid brownouts. They are running into roadblocks now and will be tied up in court over it because people don't want the lines near their homes. The same thing happens with windfarms, delays and increased costs. Add to that how much more it will cost to build these things once oil gets even more expensive or worse even scarce. It takes fuel to run machinery and it'll take lots of it to build a new facilities or whole new infrastructures.
Other biofuels are adding to the problem and not solving anything.

"According to some experts, the worst damage is being done by government mandates and subsidies for "biofuels" that supposedly reduce carbon dioxide emissions and fight climate change. Thirty percent of this year's U.S. grain harvest will go to ethanol distilleries. The European Union, meanwhile, has set a goal of 10 percent bio-fuels for all transportation needs by 2010.

"A huge amount of the world's farmland is being diverted to feed cars, not people," writes Gwynne Dyer, a London-based independent journalist.

He notes that in six of the past seven years the human race has consumed more grain than it grew. World grain reserves last year were only 57 days, down from 180 days a decade ago.

One in four bushels of corn from this year's U.S. crop will be diverted to make ethanol, according to estimates.

"Turning food into fuel for cars is a major mistake on many fronts," said Janet Larsen, director of research at the Earth Policy Institute, an environmental group based in Washington. "One, we're already seeing higher food prices in the American supermarket. Two, perhaps more serious from a global perspective, we're seeing higher food prices in developing countries where it's escalated as far as people rioting in the streets."

Palm oil is also at record prices because of biofuel demands. This has created shortages in Indonesia and Malaysia, where it is a staple."
last edited: 4/09/08 7:42:16 PM”

“Great stuff RB thanks”

“We need wheel well inspectors all the time, oil down in price with the less consumption caused by grounded aircrap.”

“"A huge amount of the world's farmland is being diverted to feed cars, not people,"

This is true and unavoidable but I should think that the production of grains and legumes and other oil-producing crops will eventually catch up with the demand for food AND fuel.

Change is sometimes painful but change will come and the free market will do as it pleases.

Subsidizing ethanol though is NOT free market.”

“Notice how fast that thing sprung into gear? Hell, the airlines are so jealous of the investment banks and farmers they want their share of the taxpays giveaway.

We'll need diving suits and bells to visit the dolar pretty soon. Not long till it'll be the doar.
last edited: 4/11/08 9:43:42 AM”

“I'm designing a new process to make biodiesel from golf green and fairway grasses. I'm not expecting very much resistance from the nice golfing community.”

“You live in a lake/golf community, no?

With your resources at hand and resourcefulness you could water the biodiesel and pad your profits. That might be a fair way to make some doh.

With all this dolor over the decline of the dollar one should think that grief counseling might be a good business opportunity.”

“Profits are only fun when they come by way of the general fund via the FICA, so it's right outa them minimum wage withholding.HAHAHAHA”

“actually they are working on making pellets out of grasses to burn as a heating fuel...”

“Did you know we are putting 70,000 barrels of oil A DAY away in the strategic oil reserve? And we are like 20 million barrels to capacity in storage! STOP IT! Let those barrels go on market and drop the price!
last edited: 4/12/08 9:46:19 AM”