The Debate 10/13

““Hey Buckleberry, a fetus ain't a human. IT has no soul. God told me so.”

“It's not a baby. It's a reptilian little tumor.”

Ha Ha, real funny. This is the sort of gross insensitivity I was alluding to earlier. I don't personally take this position, but I try to understand that others have their own beliefs whether I accept them or not.

These are deeply held beliefs, and, Phaeddy, you are riduculing these people for what they believe. Many live their lives based upon the teachings of their church, and you've just told them they are lower than whale #&%!$ for believing what they do.

The reason we cannot get beyond what divides us is because we can't accept that others have different beliefs. Maybe that's because we are so insecure that we HAVE to make fun of others, maybe it's because we're simply ignorant of other cultures, maybe we just don't think about what we say before we say it... but the fact remains we will NEVER solve our differences if we can't compromise, and we will NEVER be able to compromise if we cannot accept / understand that others have their own cultures / beliefs.

I didn't see this as a "funny, ha ha" thread, I saw it as one that people with deeply held beliefs were posting to.”

“Yeah, I disagree with the idea that the killing of a pregnant mother is the destruction of two lives, but I think it does take an especially sick jerk to kill a pregnant woman, so I'm for special laws to handle those sickos.

Sure, Buck, I'm an overgrown fetus, but to call a blastocyst a baby is to have contempt for what makes human beings human, IMO. Your mileage will vary.”

“These are deeply held beliefs, and, Phaeddy, you are riduculing these people for what they believe. Many live their lives based upon the teachings of their church, and you've just told them they are lower than whale #&%!$ for believing what they do.


I'm pointing out that the absolutism of "abortion is murder" can cut both ways. When I say with absolute certainty that it isn't, it makes people just as uncomfortable. Thanks for helping me demonstrate that Buck calling a fetus a baby is no more valid than me saying it is not.

I doubt either his or my conviction is more deeply held.

As far as sensitivity goes, this is a fuego thread, and all of the adults here have shown that they're capable of dealing with the heat - Buck especially.
last edited: 10/14/04 6:26:33 PM”

“I don't mind Phaedrus' mocking the view of those who love precious unborn babies. In fact I consider it an honor to be the recipient of such language on the behalf of unborn babies. Man, if I could have a nickel for everytime I've been told, "I wish your mom aborted YOU!", I'd be a beeeellionaire, ha ha! No worries. They think they will piss me off or something, like that's the ULTIMATE blow, but naw. I gotta do what I gotta do for the rights of ALL innocent people, not just adults and children, but also babies too, born and yet-to-be-born. It's an honor. I am strong in these convictions. So far Phaedrus and the others have been pretty tame for what I'm used to.”

“See? Buck is pretty blunt in his terms, implying that all women who have had an abortion were complicit in murder and will probably burn in hell. It can be a deeply held belief and be just as hurtful from either side.”

“Phaed, anyone can be forgiven of sin if they ask. That's the magic of Christianity.”

“The US is a coutry that allows a person to have his own religion. That's the magic of the constitution.”

“Agreed. What does the Constitution have to do with your comments about hell?”

“The US is a country that allows a person to have representation of their views in Congress. That's the magic of the Constitution.”

“Nothing, thankfully! I was referring to your assertion that abortion is murder, and (presumably) a woman who doesn't think so and doesn't ask forgiveness in your god's eyes is going to hell.

That's a pretty hurtful statement to make in a country where freedom of religion is practiced, no?”

“Phaed, my assertion that abortion is murder is my moral beliefs, not the legal law at this time. I am hoping and praying that those two mesh into one someday... the sooner the better... for our babies sake.

As for your question about hell, it doesn't matter what I think, I ain't God nor do I have to apologize for God. If I believe in gravity or don't believe in gravity, that has no bearing on gravity itself, nor does gravity need me to explain why someone tripped and fell. I just recognize the fact of gravity.”

“Right, your moral beliefs have nothing to do with the law, thankfully.

That said, if I go around calling people murderers for something they really believe is not murder... say - eating meat, for instance - Doesn't that end up being hurtful and alienating toward those people who have truly a moral belief that meat is not murder?

I know it's an analogy and you have a hard time with those - especially considering your gravity analogy just now - but try to see the other side.

If abortion is murder, God will be the judge of those who engage in sin.”

“And Phaed, if you tell me the Bible is hogwash and you don't believe in the God of the Bible, I don't find your beliefs "hurtful". Nor do I find it hurtful if another religion tells me I'm going to burn in hell for not believing as they do. It seems you are suggesting we live in a neutered society where no one can say anything about their beliefs lest they might be offensive to someone who believes otherwise. With all the bazillions of differing perspectives on religion and politics, that would be boring!”

“Phaedrus, are you greatly offended by PETA?”

“PFFT! I rag on you and you back all the time, and that's the way I like it. I'm introducing Wanderer to the concept.”

“PETA bugs me to no end. Their self-righteous babbling is just as annoying to me as... well... you know what.”

“Am I upset if someone calls me pro-murder for believing in capital punishment? Gee, I guess I'm not that sensitive nor do I really care what others think. I'm strong in my convictions and I'm fully aware other people have opposing views. No offense.”

“Did you realize that the meat in Jack-In-The-Box® tacos are 75% fish meat? It's true. I knew it wasn't all beef, it's too mushy.”

“NUH UH!

really?”

“PFFT!

Did you just fart?

I rag on you and you back all the time

Are you suggesting we're both on the rag? WOMEN OF TRAIL TALK, ARE YOU GONNA TAKE THIS ANYMORE??? On behalf of the women here... I'VE HAD IT!”

“Did you just say you've had all the women of trailtalk?

Who's going to call Buck out?”

“My cousin was a shift manager at the Jack-In-The-Box on Stanford Ranch Rd... he swears the taco meat is mostly fish with just a little beef. I love these kinds of connections. Now I wanna know what Starbucks puts in their fraps.”

“Did you just say you've had all the women of trailtalk?

At the same time even. What a night.”

“It really depends on whether or not you piss off the Barrista.”

“Can we keep the word 'piss' out of this discussion? Thank you.”

“Exactly.

Be nice to the countergirl at the starbucks. They've had too much caffeine and are loaded to go off!


Uhhh so to speak.”

“Here we go again. Kerry brought up Cheney's daughter being gay. I believe it was during this last debate. I just saw it on the news. Well, now Kerry shows how low class he is along with Edwards. Cheney's kid has nothing to do with the vice presidency! That was a low blow. How would you feel if you were Cheney's kid and they kept bringing up your sex life? It's no ones business. Why won't these two low life democrats leave her alone? What did she do to them?

Mrs. Cheney thought the Kerry comment was "cheap and tawdry."”

“Telling someone that someone else is gay is not telling them about that person's sex life.

If the Cheneys are angry about the democrats bringing it up, they should learn to be less defensive about their daughter's lifestyle.”

“Phaedrus, no one says that they are upset about bringing up their daughter's sex life, but bringing up their daughter at all. It's just not necessary, unless you are looking to give personal low blows to the other candidate.

Bringing up a person's sexual preference is bringing up their sex life. You are just in denial, because you know it makes your candidates look bad, and so you won't admit to it, but that doesn't mean it's not clear to everyone else BUT you! Acting oblivious to what is obvious does not make you look very smart.”

“wand - that was some of the best chit I've read in a real long time.


Thank you.


"“Here we go again. Kerry brought up Cheney's daughter being gay. I believe it was during this last debate. I just saw it on the news. Well, now Kerry shows how low class he is along with Edwards. Cheney's kid has nothing to do with the vice presidency! That was a low blow. How would you feel if you were Cheney's kid and they kept bringing up your sex life? It's no ones business. Why won't these two low life democrats leave her alone? What did she do to them?

Mrs. Cheney thought the Kerry comment was "cheap and tawdry........"


I heard Mr. and Mrs. Dick Cheneys response at work tonight. They seen really pissed. People are pointing out that a lot of the outrage is centered around the use of the word "lesbian", in reference to Mr. Dick Cheney's daughter. Mr. Dick Cheney said he is upset as a parent. This seems to have struck a nerve, but why?

I get the feeling that Mr. and Mrs. Dick Cheney are still not really comfortable with their daughters lifestyle. It's like they were offended or something. I got a real weird vibe from all of that.

But was it an "inbounds play" to cite the younger Cheney in his response?

Don't know.

Why?

Whether we like it or not, these guys are really trying hard to win this thing. I think we all poo-poo the guy we support, right? I think some of use are taking what we can get, no? I think that we all could agree that this thing is just not up to our standards.

Getting back to it, there is an opportunity for this subject to come up and I really do think that Mr. and Mrs. Dick Cheney knew full well that this could have "been used against them". If Mr. and Mrs. Dick Cheney really, honestly didn't think this could be used, their minus 15 points for just being dumbasses.

So, in closing....fair? Could be. If this "gay thing" is some how going to "hurt the ticket" of the right, that ticket is much less stable than first thought. Look, Mr. Dick Cheney and Mr. Bush don't even see eye to eye on gay rights. That right there has to cause a lot of stress between the two men. I say, what's all the fuss? Homophobia is sooooooo 20th century...........!”

“Sounds to me like the Cheney's are ashamed of their daughter.....or they are politicizing this non issue.

Dick has talked about her being gay, it was mentioned in the last (first, they all sound alike) debate with no problems. She openly talks about being a lesbian...whats the problem?
last edited: 10/14/04 8:51:40 PM”

“Oh oh, I said lesbian.


Gay is politically correct..I guess.”

“I know Cheney brought up his daughter being gay. Maybe he does have a problem with it, because it may mean no grandkids or traditions that he was looking forward to with having a daughter. What's wrong with that? Knowing you will lose all that can take time to come to terms with.

It means no religious ceremony, and the child, if she gets pregnant will not be hers and her partners, but hers and a sperm donor.”

“It was a "debate", not friendly banter. Regardless of someone being straight or gay, no matter what the context, in a public debate I think it is wrong to bring up the sexuality of your opponents. If they want to discuss it, fine, but not their rivals. Someone's private sexual orientation is to be respected, not used for political leverage. But instead of slamming a home-run, Kerry struck out. I read about the responses of swing-voter focus groups and they pretty much acted universally in disgust at this tactic. So it only hurt Kerry/Edwards on that point. I think most people feel this was not the right way to go about speaking about the gay issue. In a national debate like this it's not a matter of sexuality, it's a matter of decency and respect. That's how I feel, and I think it's safe to say that's how most people feel.”

“"Maybe he does have a problem with it, because it may mean no grandkids or traditions that he was looking forward to with having a daughter. What's wrong with that? Knowing you will lose all that can take time to come to terms with......."


If I'm not mistaken, Mr. and Mrs. Dick Cheney have one other daughter. I could be wrong, tho.”

“I suspect that those with issues about gays, would react with disgust. If you judge folks because of things like that, your going to react.”

“You know, Q, I never thought about it in those terms, but you might be right. A little bit of Democratic dirty tricks to drag down conservative/evangelical turnout. Interesting.

But let's be honest. Both of these families are in the middle of a total war. There are no innocents here. Cheney's daughter is involved in the campaign as much as the rest of them. She is open to criticism. And she espouses a lifestyle that contradicts the administration's position and illuminates what Cheney truly believes.

I don't see too many Republicans crying about the lampooning of Theresa Heinz Kerry. If Cheney didn't want this brought up, he should have gone home to Washington, DC. Oh, sorry, Wyoming.

BTW, there was a pretty damning report on the NBC nightly news about the "cooperation" going on between US troops and the newly trained Iraqis. Apparently, American soldiers had to have a nighttime raid of the barracks of Iraqi soldiers we trained because they'd gone over to the dark side. And the troops that were being interviewed were all saying that they really couldn't trust any of the Iraqi soldiers.

This is the plan to get us out, eh?”

“reformed lurker, you say Cheney's daughter is "open to criticism". What's to criticize? She's gay... is that supposed to be bad?

You say she espouses a lifestyle that contradicts the administration's position. huh? Bush's position is not you-can't-be-gay, he says you can do whatever you want, that's the freedom of this country. Be straight. Be gay. But when it comes to the traditional definition of marriage, he wants it to remain between a man and a woman. SO DOES KERRY! Kerry is NOT for gay marriage.”

“mtnsteve, the issue is bringing up someone's personal sexuality into a national debate, singling them out personally. Don't you respect someone's personal right to be who they are and not have it heard around the world? Bush is not against Cheney's daughter being gay, and Kerry is not for gay marriage. It was just in bad taste to use someone's daughter without their permission and talk about their personal sexuality on national television during a debate. And most people feel that way. It's not a matter of being gay or not. It's a matter of respect. Is that the best Kerry could do to explain gayness? Can't he speak about his positions on gay lifestyles without bringing up names? Apparently not. It's a weak and disrespectful approach.”

“"“reformed lurker, you say Cheney's daughter is "open to criticism". What's to criticize? She's gay... is that supposed to be bad? ......."

And that's the question we all have. It shouldn't be, but Mr. and Mrs. Dick Cheney are acting like a bassturd son just showed up.”

“Bringing up the fact that a person has a log in his eye before he's about to remove the speck from yours...etc.

If Cheney doesn't want his daughter to be able to wed, he's heartless. He works for an administration actively trying to discriminate against gays. It's in bounds to bring that up.

And LH, I wasn't being oblivious, I was being gentle. Wanderer wants me to be nice.”

“Oh, come on, Buck. Gay marriage is banned in a majority of states now. Yet the conservatives now want a constitutional amendment in my state that will outlaw domestic partnerships and other laws that help gay families to transfer property and get health care for the kids.

The underlying idea behind these things is that a gay lifestyle is not compatible with good, old-fashioned, American, family values. Gay people don't drive Buicks, do they?

When Bush and Cheney want a US constitutional amendment that could do the same in the entire country, and Cheney's close family member lives that lifestyle - apparently with Cheney's approval - this is a legitimate issue.

If this is a private issue, then the Republicans shouldn't bring it up.

It is a good question, however, whether this was a good strategic move. I, personally, think that letting the stink of Bush's performance in the debates hang heavy for a bit might be a better option.

BTW, I do not support gay marriage. I support domestic parterships with the legal privileges of marriage. In fact, I think that the government should get out of the marriage business altogether, let churches do that and just codify special relationships of all types - elderly sisters, dependent parents living with children, etc.”

“Phaedrus, not even JOHN KERRY wants Cheney's daughter to be able to wed! KERRY IS AGAINST GAY MARRIAGE!”

“reformed lurker... after ALL THAT you still say you are against gay marriage? I see how you are.”

“Buck, for me marriage is a sacrament. It is witnessed by a priest, not a government.

Now, I think the legal protections are key. The legal protections need to be the same whether you are gay or straight. I couldn't care less what the governmental aspect was called. How about having two completely identical institutions, one called a marriage for heteosexuals and another called a committed partnership for gays and lesbians.

Also, according to Catholic theology, couples marry themselves. The priest, minister, congregation and government only witness it.”

“Let me try this again...

Marriage as a legal institution to me is completely separate from marriage as a Catholic sacrament.

The legal side is simply about creating an orderly society. My morals needn't interfere there. If two people - gay partners, straight couples, sisters, dad and son, whatever - live in the same house for fifty years and the other one dies, I figure the first should get the house. There should be some mechanism for them.

The Catholic sacrament is a different story. My morality and that of my church are completely relevant there. However, that is not an issue for a presidential race.”

“reformed lurker, I'm discussing the legal, contractual civic laws of marriage. What you or I feel religiously is totally separate from the legal definition of marriage.

You stated you are against the legal, civic contractual definition of marriage to include gays. You talk about "mechanisms" or "sacraments" or "unions", but you are against including them in the legal term of "marriage", which is cool. So is Bush and so is Kerry.

Phaed speaks of Cheney being heartless because he doesn't want his daughter to "wed". Well then, Kerry is heartless too because John Kerry is agaist gay marriage. As is the vast majority of the world.

In fact it was President Clinton who signed the 'Defense of Marriage Act' which explicitly defined legal marriage as between a man and a woman, ONLY between a man and a woman. Was he heartless? Were you up in arms about it back then as you are now? I don't know, I wasn't here.”

“BTW, Buck, earlier you stated that I am somehow not consistent with the teachings of my church.

My church is pro-life. I am pro-life. I want abortion to end. I take positions that work towards this. I simply differ in how this goal should be arrived at. I am not in variance with the core teachings.

The sacrament of marriage in Catholicism is for straight couples only. I have no problem with this. On matters involving the Constitution of the State of Michigan, however, the church has no teaching authority. It is not a part of the deposit of the faith. My church has as much right to an opinion about this as I do, but neither holds more weight before God when done in good conscience.

You are very good at explaining conservative protestant politics to me. You are not very good at explaining thousands of years of Catholic theological conversation to me.”

“Buck, I've only been speaking about the fact that Cheney's daughter is fair game for a political debate. Kerry does not have a lesbian daughter as far as I know, so his position and the way he lives his life is consistent.

Cheney, however, has taken a public position that differs dramatically from the way he lives his personal life. This is inconsistent and open to criticism.

Overall, this is a stupid debate. Both sides agree. The public agrees. Supporters of the gay community should have cut a deal a few years back that gave up the goal of "gay marriage" in name and accepted an alternative institution with the same legal rights. Public opinion supports this.

This would have avoided a debate that is counterproductive to acceptance of gay couples in society.”

“But, honestly, the real goal of this debate is not resolution of the issue. It is all about energizing the anti-gay Republican base.”