The Debate 10/13

“Buck...
"mtnsteve, the issue is bringing up someone's personal sexuality into a national debate, singling them out personally. Don't you respect someone's personal right to be who they are and not have it heard around the world?"

Would you have the same problem if he said his daughter was straight?

If a person, her/his father and mother openly talk about them being gay or straight, what is the problem. It's not like she was outed.
last edited: 10/14/04 11:04:08 PM”

“reformed lurker, allz I can say is that I follow religous stuff... news, theology, doctries, etc. I'm fascinated by it. I dated a devout Catholic girl for 3 years and delved into the Catholic Church doctrine pretty well and attended Mass with her many times (she went to my services as well). I know the authority of the Catholic Church. I know the Pope is the head of the Catholic Church, and the role the various Bishops play. I do not have to be a scholar, or a Catholic, to read and understand the positions of the Catholic church on current moral social issues. I know for a FACT the Catholic Church is against abortion... heck, they're even against birth control, for cyring out loud, much less abortion afterwards. I know for a fact that the Pope and the Bishops (the God-ordained leaders of your "universal" church) are vehemently against abortion, morally AND legally. They are also AGAINST gay marriage, morally AND legally. Not just morally, but LEGALLY. They want, no, they demand that Catholics vote in such a way if they are to be in alliance with the teachings of the Catholic Church. Of course Bush takes stances they differ with too (most notably the war and capital punishment). But the official stance of the Catholic Church is that abortion is a GRAVE EVIL and no Catholic can vote for a candidate (and they even specifically mentioned John Kerry) if they are to remain in alliance with the teachings of the church on this issue. Not my doings... but the Catholic Church's. Now I don't claim to know Catholic doctrine as well as you, I'm not Catholic, but you can't spin that any other way. And the same holds for gay marriage. The Catholic Church takes a VERY STRONG position AGAINST GAY MARRIAGE. And I'm talking LEGAL GAY MARRIAGE. In fact, the Catholic Church goes further than that and even condemns GAY RELATIONSHIPS... that gays can be saved just like everyone else, but homosexuality is a SIN, much less recognizing marriage.
In fact the Bishops in America even support a legal CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT banning gay marriage! Not just religous sacraments, as you suggest, but the legal laws of this land, all the way up to the Constitution of the United States of America.

If you feel otherwise about these social issues, fine, but you are not acting in accordance with "official" Catholic doctrine on these social/moral dilemmas. I'm not making this stuff up. It come from the Pope and the Bishops... and the Pope is supposed to be God's ordained spiritual leader on this planet to Catholics.”

“mtnsteve, yes, the same would apply to her being straight. I mean, why bring up an individual person when discussing sexuality? It's a general topic. Someone can make a case for their stances without bringing up an individual who isn't even there and has no say whether she wants her sexuality discussed on national TV in a debate watched around the world by tens of millions of people! If she wants to talk about it, fine, if the Cheneys want to talk about it, fine, if Kerry first asks permission to see if she, or her family, would be offended, fine. But out of the blue speaking of something like that is not respectful. It's like if one of Kerry's daughters had an abortion, even if it was known, and Bush brought that up in the debate during the discussion about abortion, it would be disrespectful and inconsiderate.”

“I see it as no different as saying her hair is brown. Hearing how "disgusted" they are now is rather disingenuous after the other debate when Edwards brought it up, with no problems. Why wasn't there an uproar then?”

“mtnsteve, I think it was a cheap shot then, but at least Cheney was there! No Cheney's were on the debate floor that night. But feel as you may, no worries, no use going 'round and 'round on it, we both feel differently. But at least on this particular issue the undecideds thought it was a cheap swipe.”

“El Buckaroo. Since you told us the Catholic stance on abortion, have you heard what the Pope's stance on the war in Iraq is?”

“Group of Bishops Using Influence to Oppose Kerry
By DAVID D. KIRKPATRICK
and LAURIE GOODSTEIN

Published: October 12, 2004

ENVER, Oct. 9 - For Archbishop Charles J. Chaput, the highest-ranking Roman Catholic prelate in Colorado, there is only one way for a faithful Catholic to vote in this presidential election, for President Bush and against Senator John Kerry.

"The church says abortion is a foundational issue,'' the archbishop explained to a group of Catholic college students gathered in a sports bar here in this swing state on Friday night. He stopped short of telling them whom to vote for, but he reminded them of Mr. Kerry's support for abortion rights. And he pointed out the potential impact his re-election could have on Roe v. Wade.

"Supreme Court cases can be overturned, right?" he asked.

Archbishop Chaput, who has never explicitly endorsed a candidate, is part of a group of bishops intent on throwing the weight of the church into the elections.

Galvanized by battles against same-sex marriage and stem cell research and alarmed at the prospect of a President Kerry - who is Catholic but supports abortion rights - these bishops and like-minded Catholic groups are blanketing churches with guides identifying abortion, gay marriage and the stem cell debate as among a handful of "non-negotiable issues."

...

In an interview in his residence here, Archbishop Chaput said a vote for a candidate like Mr. Kerry who supports abortion rights or embryonic stem cell research would be a sin that must be confessed before receiving Communion.

"If you vote this way, are you cooperating in evil?" he asked. "And if you know you are cooperating in evil, should you go to confession? The answer is yes."

But never before have so many bishops so explicitly warned Catholics so close to an election that to vote a certain way was to commit a sin.

Less than two weeks ago, Archbishop Raymond L. Burke of St. Louis issued just such a statement. Bishop Michael J. Sheridan of Colorado Springs and Archbishop John J. Myers of Newark have both recently declared that the obligation to oppose abortion outweighs any other issue.

In theological terms, these bishops and the voter guides argue that abortion and the destruction of embryos are categorically wrong under church doctrine. War and even the death penalty can in certain circumstances be justified.
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/12/politics/campaign/12catholics.html

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There are all kinds of Bishops saying they would refuse communion to Kerry.

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Bishops Urge Constitutional Amendment to Protect Marriage


WASHINGTON (CNS) -- The Administrative Committee of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops has called for a constitutional amendment to protect the unique social and legal status of marriage.

In Catholic belief, "marriage is a faithful, exclusive and lifelong union between one man and one woman, joined as husband and wife in an intimate partnership of life and love," the 47-bishop committee said in a statement released Sept. 10.

The bishops cited a recent Vatican document that called legal recognition of same-sex unions "gravely unjust."


http://www.americancatholic.org/News/Homosexuality/default.asp

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Catholics Against Kerry

http://www.catholicsagainstkerry.com/default.aspx

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Pope decries abortion, gay marriage
Day 2 of John Paul II's trip to Brazil
October 3, 1997
Web posted at: 9:40 p.m. EDT (0140 GMT)
RIO DE JANEIRO, Brazil (CNN) - Pope John Paul II told a Brazilian audience Friday said the institution of the family is threatened by abortion and marital infidelity. The Roman Catholic leader also made a veiled attack on gay and lesbian marriages.

"Marital fidelity and respect for life in all phases of its existence are subverted by a culture that doesn't admit the transcendent nature of man, created in the image and likeness of God," he told delegates to a conference on family issues.

"Among the truths obscured in the hearts of men by growing secularism and rampant hedonism, those regarding the family have come under particular attack," he said.

In his address the pope also said that sexual "diversity" should not be recognized when it comes to marriage, an apparent reference to gay and lesbian marriages, which the Catholic Church opposes.

http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9710/03/pope.brazil/?related

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I could go on and on, but it's VERY clear the positions of the Catholic Church on these issues.”

“Doomy, if you read what I said, I said the Catholic Church disagrees with Bush on the war in Iraq and death penalty, as well as some other social issues. But when it comes to abortion and gay marriage, they say that takes precedence and is so abhorrent that it cannot justify a vote.”

“Hey, buddy, I'm not disagreeing with your point. It's just that you've conveniently ignored the fact that the Pope said there was no way a Christian could support the pre-emptive war that GW started.”

“Doomy, I didn't leave that out, I mentioned it previously about things the Catholic Church takes issue with on G-Dub, the war being one of them. But I haven't seen any Bishops saying you can't vote for G-Dub, but I've heard Bishops say you can't vote for John Kerry because of his abortion stance. I've even heard Bishops say John Kerry can't receive communion from them, but I haven't heard them say that specifically about Bush. At least not in the news. If reformed lurker® were a Bishop he'd certainly deny Bush communion, ha ha! Just teasin'.”

“Not all Catholic bishops have come out with the position you stated, either. There have been several bishops who have criticized the "anti-Kerry" bishops. The bishops who did come out stating that a Catholic couldn't vote for Kerry should have the tax exempt status of their entire diocese taken away.”

“From Catholic.org

Headline
Catholics, John Kerry, Viagra, and Sin

10/3/2004 - 8:42 AM PST

By Matt Abbott

...

Which brings me to my rhetorical moral question of the day: Which of these is sinful – A) a Catholic voting for pro-abortion John Kerry or B) a Catholic married man using Viagra? Well, if you’re a liberal “Catholic,” there is no such thing as sin, save for voting Republican. If, however, you’re a faithful Catholic, then choice A could very well be sinful – not to mention unthinkable - but not so with choice B.

Here’s why. Voting for a pro-abortion candidate because of his or her support of abortion “rights” would, according to assenting Catholic theologians, constitute a mortal sin. Voting for a pro-abortion candidate because he or she is “right” on other issues might not be sinful per se, but it certainly would be an utterly foolish act. And no true pro-lifer is going to do such a thing.

http://www.catholic.org/featured/headline.php?ID=1388

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Catholic Church 'will refuse Kerry Communion'

...

Priests and bishops across America are being urged by members to refuse Communion to the first Catholic to run for the presidency since John F. Kennedy. The sanction would be imposed until Mr Kerry abandoned his permissive views on abortion and other issues such as gay marriages.

The campaign - which has the explicit blessing of the Vatican - is gathering force and, with Holy Week drawing near, Mr Kerry's aides have been forced to visit churches before allowing him to attend Mass. Rome has become increasingly concerned about the possibility of an avowedly Catholic president who is both pro-choice and approves of gay civil unions.

In a surprisingly frank statement, a Vatican official told Time magazine: "People in Rome are becoming more and more aware that there's a problem with John Kerry and a potential scandal with his apparent profession of his Catholic faith and some of his stances, particularly abortion."

Last week, a defiant note sounded from Kerry's campaign headquarters: "Rome may not be thrilled with the Senator's position on some social issues," said an adviser, "but the Pope doesn't have a vote in this election."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/04/04/wkerry04.xml&sSheet=/portal/2004/04/04/ixportal.html”

“Vatican cardinal fuels religious dispute

Friday, April 23, 2004 Posted: 5:45 PM EDT (2145 GMT)

VATICAN CITY (CNN) -- Just hours before Sen. John Kerry was scheduled to discuss his support for legalized abortion at a large women's rights rally Friday in Washington, a top Vatican cardinal called on priests to deny communion to Catholic politicians like Kerry who take that stance.

In a news conference to announce the release of a document aimed at a crackdown on possible abuses in celebrating Mass, Cardinal Francis Arinze was asked if a politician who supports abortion rights should be denied communion.

"Yes. Objectively, the answer is clear," Arinze said. "The person is not fit. If he shouldn't receive it, then it shouldn't be given."

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/04/23/vatican.kerry/”

“Buck,

I will answer your quotes more fully later in the day.

However, you must be aware of two Catholic theological principles.

The first is that the area in which church officials can speak infallibly is quite limited. It is limited to matters of faith and doctrine. Many have even argued that a pope must even invoke the doctrine of infallibility in such matters.

Just to give an example. If the Pope, or an ecumenical council (more powerful than the Pope), says that Jesus is also God, his word is law.

If the Pope decides that the United States is not helping the poor in Africa enough, that is his opinion. I would value that opinion because I respect the Pope. He has as much right to his opinion as everyone else does. Catholics do not have to accept it.

The second matter is that Catholic theology respects the well-formed conscience. Individual Catholics in specific life situations MUST follow their conscience, even if this opposes a church teaching.

Examples: Some priests and bishops were complicit in helping the Germans round up Jews during the Holocaust. The right thing for a Catholic to do in that situation was to ignore the priest or bishop. Catholic theology accepts this.

This, of course, does not mean that individual bishops will not try to convince you otherwise. However, the US Conference of Catholic Bishops discussed the Kerry endorsement issue and came to the conclusion that Catholics could, in good conscience, vote for either. A small minority of very conservative bishops argued otherwise.

The Vatican, via Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, has said the same thing.

On the gay marriage amendment, I would give you two examples. In Michigan, we have a Cardinal, Maida, who supports the constitutional ban on gay marriage. Bishop Thomas Gumbleton opposes the constitutional ban.

In Ohio, several bishops have come out in support of the constitutional ban on gay marriage. Archbishop Pilarczyk - a very nice man if you get to meet him - of Cincinnati is opposed to the ban.

These issues are rarely clear cut.

I would also suggest that you tamper your wholesale condemnations of non-conservative believers. Just because progressives stand for a different set of political ideas than you doesn't mean you should demean their faith by saying they don't stand for anything.

Act charitably.”

“I suppose Bush could have shown he was more in touch by naming everyone Kerry's daughters had sex with, and how often.”

“Ahh Manuka, the queen of hyper-exaggeration.”

“Wow, that's a really witty post manuka, ... the Bush twins being the paragons of proper behavior.”

“was gonna say Manuka . .. .carful what cans you open there . . .


Here's a question:

Even though, in my opinion, of the twins, Barbara (the dark haired one) is clearly better looking . .. .Could I bang the stuffing out of her and not help think of her namesake .. . .Grandma Barbara. Of course . .. .that might help me last longer . .. .keeping that image in my head woud be like thinking about baseball or something . .. .of course, if I was banging her, I'd want to be thinking about her.

Also . ..although I think Barbara is better looking, Jenna does have that "I'm a big drunken slut" sort of appeal. Sort of the . . .Annna Nicole Smith thing going on (only not as good looking). She might be a better lay.


In the interest of even-handedness, it was nice to see the near nude shot of Kerry's daughter showing up under the lights at a red carpet event in a tranparent dress (no pun in the use of the words "showing up" and "carpet")



Debate them apples for a while.”

“"I know Cheney brought up his daughter being gay. Maybe he does have a problem with it, because it may mean no grandkids or traditions that he was looking forward to with having a daughter. What's wrong with that? Knowing you will lose all that can take time to come to terms with.

It means no religious ceremony, and the child, if she gets pregnant will not be hers and her partners, but hers and a sperm donor.”
lipstick hiker
9:05:29 PM
10/14/04

Republicans will never, ever, ever, ever get it. John Kerry supports civil unions, which entail what RL just discussed. He believes in the sepration of church and state, something radical religious republicans just can't seem to get through thier thick head.

LH, if Dickhead Cheney and his monkey GWB did the right thing, Dick's daughter would be able to adopt kids with her partner, thereby giving Dickhead grandkids and all the traditions that republicans hold so near and dear to thier devisive, sexist, homophobic, racists hearts. As usual, I don't expect republicans to comprehend this because it is a different line of thinking that is well beyond thier clouded grasp. In other words, it's a democratic line of thought, that espouses real FREEDOM, not the BS GWB says the Iraqi's have and, it's not a fascist opinion, so you can't possibly understand it.
last edited: 10/15/04 10:05:51 AM”

“OY!”

“flmao!”

“BTW - Amen RL! If more people like RL ran the organized churches in America, we wouldn't have half the problems our country has today. Heck, I might even start going to BINGO again.”

“Goulbeet, no wit, just an extension of your cartoon, incorporating Kerry's use of the sexual behavior of his opponents children as being politically relevant.

You think that was tasteless, I agree but I did not do it first, your guy Kerry did, I did not do it on prime time television, your guy Kerry did.

If that is his best shot at George Bush, Kerry has pretty weak credentials for the job.

If that is his morality I guess he would not be above using federal agents to get simmilar dirt on joe citizen who opposes him, Oops the children of joe citizen.

Lee has a low opinion of GW, but seems blind to the faults of the alternative.

A 30 year voting record, and now little glimpses of character, or lack thereof.”

“As an interesting note, right to lifers often argue that adoption is the answer to the placement of unwanted babies.


In one fell swoop, LH has completely discounted adopted children as somehow being "real", or having value in a family.

It means no religious ceremony, and the child, if she gets pregnant will not be hers and her partners, but hers and a sperm donor.”lipstick hiker


As BB said above, if Gay couples had widely recognized rights to adoption, then poor dick cheney would not have to be concerned about having grandkids to dote over.


And don't tell me that the adopted grandkids wouldn't hold th same place in his heart that natural grandkids would . . .


Buck certainly wouldn't wnat to hear that . . .after all . .. adoption is the center piece of the pro-lifers solution to the abortion question. That's why Buck has 2 or 3 adopted children of his own.

That's why he, and others of his belief all step up to the plate and get themselves on adpotion lists.

LH -- you can't imply that somehow these adopted children won't be considered equal . . .that would undermine a whole 'nother plank of the party's message.


In fact, if the pro-lifers can roll back Roe V. Wade, they may find it in their interests to allow gay marriage in order to create stable familes for all of the unwanted babies that will need adopting.

Of course, the pro-lifers themselves will get first crack at the babies. The good ones at least. After all those folks standing outside clinics protesting, and hopping on interenet chat rooms espouing adoption as an alternative to abortion get all the babies they can absorb, maybe gay couples can soak up the rest??

Just an idea.
last edited: 10/15/04 10:24:12 AM”

“Manuka --

I don't pretend that JFK has all the answers, I frankly think he is full of BS if he thinks america believes that he can accomplish all of his many "plans". I doubt he beleives that he can get a 10th of that done. I certainly don't, not iwth a congress and senate in opposition.


I am certainly glad to see JFK let go of the Vietnam plank of his candicy. I apprieciate the sacrifice that he and others made in Vietnam .. . but do I think it has anything to do with his qualifications to be presidnet . .. NO.

DO i think a lieutenant from 30 years ago knows jacks h i t about running a war. NO.

hell I wouldn't trust a lieutant with my left nut. Let alone a stategic plan for a war.


Do I think that inspite of his shortcomings JFK makes a better candidate than GW. YES.


Environment
Economy (with reservations about the more protectionist aspects of his rhetoric).
Security
Terrorism
Stem Cell
Abortion
Relgiion in society
Supreme Court apptments


I am not a one issue voter. Bush not only offers me nothing on many of the issues above. he downright scares me on many of them.”

“Unbelieveable !!!
Is it 2004?? Or have I just been dreaming this new century?
Ok I guess I am the only openly lesbian in this discussion.
You homophobic Hets out there can keep your stupid religious "marriage", yes there are some gays out here that would love to be "married" in the church of their beliefs, but more important to them are the rights of that certificate. We do not want "marriage" per say, we want the rights of "marriage". In statistical fact long-term gay relationships last, not like het marriages, some of you have made a mockery out of it. For god sakes there are reality shows based on it, you have other shows where you share your wives, what the hell is that??!!! Has anyone been to Vegas, 24 hour drive thru windows to marry at...
All we want is the right to care for our sick partners, adopt our partners children, support our partners with the same tax benefits, join health and fitness clubs as the families we are, lay them to rest the way they wanted not the way there parents wanted, and to collect the same benefits as you when our parnters suddenly leave us. Thats it, thats all. You just don't seem to understand, how is the "marriage" I received at city hall religious, if it is the word itself, then please help us to come up with a new one to describe it. But do not deny us the right to the rights in which our partnerships deserve. Who are you to say my 12 year partnership is not as deserving of rights as yours?!!! Can you tell me that?”

“Jee Anjii, how dare you ask for all those freedoms that the rest of the hetrosexual nation enjoys! This is a democracy for gawd's sake! The way you talke, people would think the fascist republican party is infringing upon your life, your liberty, and your pursuit of happiness!”

“LMAO buddha LMAO”

“A note on abortion. Never, in the history of our nation, has a social security card been issued to a fetus. Citizenship in this country is recognized at birth, or when you become naturalized, not after the guy immediately falls to sleep and starts snoring.”

“Isn't it outrageous Buddha, I am soo bad!!! I just thought maybe I could be consider as an American, and get the rights so offered to the rest of us.”

“Respect that Lee,

I just have a different priority list.

Security - I think JK is too much like JC whose "too nice" led to US embassys being targetted in many countries Iran and Pakistan being 2. It is not what you will do but what they think you will do.
JKs bilateral for N.Korea is the opposite of the broader GWs coalition incl. China and Russia. JK position is exactly what he (falsly) accuses GW of with Iraq.

Foreign Policy - GW DOES have a coalition, remember Labor is the Brit equiv of Dems here that are supporting him, and Germany has repeated no troops to Iraq regardless of who is in. I think JK is just election rhetoric.

Domestic policy - Social programs cost lots of money. JK has not outlined how he will pay for them. That means me and increased taxes. Increased taxes slows down business investment.

Stem Cell - GW was the first Pres to fund, but will not use fed $$ for embryonic. I am OK with that position. Private can fund if given sufficient priority.

Abortion - I support JK position.
Firearms - I support GW position.

Health & Education - I emigrated to the US because the tax cost of these programs made it almost impossible to ever own a home where I came from. I am certainly not going to vote in someone to the left of Hilary on these.

Just different views”

“I mean, come on! What the hell do lesbian women know about raising babies! Heck, the next thing ya know, people will want thier vote actually counted in this country! Outrageous!”

“LLLaaaaauuuuugggghhhhhhiiiiinnnnnnGGGG
You mean if I touch that screen, and I touch Kerry it will count for him?? But didn't I see you supporting bush last week at that rally ?? Ok I will take your word for it, here I go.......”

“US, Britian, Australia & Poland... errr... oops, Poland is backing out now. Sounds like a quadolition rapidly detiriorating into a triolition to me.”

“Well Micronesia can still hold the support, don't you think ???? LMAO”

“I enjoyed Buck trying to make it out like GW and Kerry have the same view on gay marriage. It's almost a perfect example of a student who only reads the bold print in the history books.”

“Manuka, I have no idea how what Kerry said about Cheney's daughter relates to what you posted about Kerry's daughters, but if you want to discuss the daughters of the candidates, let's get to Shrub's two vapid drunken stumblebums. There's a history there. I know it's hard to comprehend, but reality speaks louder than insinuation.”

“Bush used a mother who lost her kid in Iraq to make a point during one of the debates! What a low-life!”

“What was even worse was the mother of a kid killed in Iraq who was hauled out of a campaign appearance by Laura Bush for having the temerity to protest the war that took her son's life.

Say one thing; do another. Then accuse the other side of flip-flops.”

“None of the above.

I don't believe we have a single viable candidate this time. We didn't last time either. Their only positions seem to be "He's bad for America, elect me"

Anyone interested in a centrist party that doesn't buy into the extremist bullcrap either side is slinging at us?”

“In a word, yes, but it would have to be viable, and I don't see that happening.”

“Yeah, which is why I voted for Perot twice. But it looks like I'm hitchin' my wagon to the dems now. I see what happens when the fascist republicans get power, and never want to experience that again.”

“Agree with HPM.

Unfortunately the microscope put on candidates would deter most people.

Who would want to subject their family to this BS.

Also excludes anyone who has ever in their entire life done something wrong.

Probably Mother Teresa would be portrayed as a scumbag.”

“It seems that for the Cheneys, it's their dirty little secret that they don't want to talk about. Sure it doesn't fit in well with the rest of the party. And Cheney mentioned her in the VP debate. It's not as though Kerry said anything bad about her.”

“I was approached to run for city council, and that's exactly why I refused.”

“I have considered running for elected office. I ruled it out due to my mouth and temper and the effects on my family.

I have worked very hard over the years to try and be a decent person and to give folks a fair shake despite my prejudices (admit it, we all have them). But I know exactly how I would be attacked and I know what my responses might be and as such I'd get killed out there.

Much the same, I always meet lots of people who tell me that they want a third centrist party that considers both sides of an issue. The support is there but our political bi-opoly has conditioned us to belive it impossible.

As in all impossible tasks all it requires is effort applied consistently and accurately.

The only stumbling block is who will bell the cat.
last edited: 10/15/04 11:49:08 AM”

“HPM for County Coroner!”

“I hear you there BB.”

“Coroner? Ack!”