The Debate 10/13

“Here are eight lies or distortions you'll hear, and the truth about each:

Jobs

Mr. Bush will talk about the 1.7 million jobs created since the summer of 2003, and will say that the economy is "strong and getting stronger." That's like boasting about getting a D on your final exam, when you flunked the midterm and needed at least a C to pass the course.

Mr. Bush is the first president since Herbert Hoover to preside over a decline in payroll employment. That's worse than it sounds because the economy needs around 1.6 million new jobs each year just to keep up with population growth. The past year's job gains, while better news than earlier job losses, barely met this requirement, and they did little to close the huge gap between the number of jobs the country needs and the number actually available.

Unemployment

Mr. Bush will boast about the decline in the unemployment rate from its June 2003 peak. But the employed fraction of the population didn't rise at all; unemployment declined only because some of those without jobs stopped actively looking for work, and therefore dropped out of the unemployment statistics. The labor force participation rate - the fraction of the population either working or actively looking for work - has fallen sharply under Mr. Bush; if it had stayed at its January 2001 level, the official unemployment rate would be 7.4 percent.

The deficit

Mr. Bush will claim that the recession and 9/11 caused record budget deficits. Congressional Budget Office estimates show that tax cuts caused about two-thirds of the 2004 deficit.

The tax cuts

Mr. Bush will claim that Senator John Kerry opposed "middle class" tax cuts. But budget office numbers show that most of Mr. Bush's tax cuts went to the best-off 10 percent of families, and more than a third went to the top 1 percent, whose average income is more than $1 million.

The Kerry tax plan

Mr. Bush will claim, once again, that Mr. Kerry plans to raise taxes on many small businesses. In fact, only a tiny percentage would be affected. Moreover, as Mr. Kerry correctly pointed out last week, the administration's definition of a small-business owner is so broad that in 2001 it included Mr. Bush, who does indeed have a stake in a timber company - a business he's so little involved with that he apparently forgot about it.

Fiscal responsibility

Mr. Bush will claim that Mr. Kerry proposes $2 trillion in new spending. That's a partisan number and is much higher than independent estimates. Meanwhile, as The Washington Post pointed out after the Republican convention, the administration's own numbers show that the cost of the agenda Mr. Bush laid out "is likely to be well in excess of $3 trillion" and "far eclipses that of the Kerry plan."

Spending

On Friday, Mr. Bush claimed that he had increased nondefense discretionary spending by only 1 percent per year. The actual number is 8 percent, even after adjusting for inflation. Mr. Bush seems to have confused his budget promises - which he keeps on breaking - with reality.

Health care

Mr. Bush will claim that Mr. Kerry wants to take medical decisions away from individuals. The Kerry plan would expand Medicaid (which works like Medicare), ensuring that children, in particular, have health insurance. It would protect everyone against catastrophic medical expenses, a particular help to the chronically ill. It would do nothing to restrict patients' choices.


Checking the Facts, in Advance”

“Sounds about right, V!”

“Since Violin saw fit to post that lameness, here's conservative lameness that's floating around:

Sixteen obvious points that George W. Bush should make during the Wednesday night debate.
by P.J. O'Rourke
10/12/2004 12:00:00 AM

(1) My opponent, Massachusetts senator John Kerry--or, as I like to think of him, Teddy Kennedy with a designated driver . . .


(2) There are two organizations pushing for change in November--al Qaeda and the Democratic party. And they both have the same message: "We're going to fix you, America." On the whole, the terrorists have a more straightforward plan for fixing things. They're going to blow themselves up. Although, come to think of it, Howard Dean did that.

(3) Senator Kerry, what do you mean my administration "lost" 1.6 million jobs? Did Dick Cheney accidentally leave 1.6 million jobs in the Senate men's room or something? Did you find them? Have you got 1.6 million jobs that you're hiding, Senator Kerry? And if you're elected, are you going to give them back?

(4) Speaking of jobs, Senator, how come every illegal immigrant who wades the Rio is able to find one in about 10 minutes? Meanwhile, your Democratic core constituency has been unemployed for years. Are your supporters lazy, Senator Kerry? Or are they stupid? Back when Clinton was president, did your supporters think they got their jobs at Burger King because Bill was sleeping with the cow?

(5) You say health care costs are soaring? Well, I'm not the one with a personal injury lawyer on my ticket. I loved the billboards that John Edwards used to have all over North Carolina: "Y'ALL MIGHT HAVE GOT HURT AT WORK AND NOT EVEN KNOWN IT" and "FEELIN' POORLY? LEMME SUE YER DOCTOR!"

6) Yeah, we're running a deficit. Like Democrats never did that. But at least we're borrowing the money when interest rates are low. It's the same as refinancing your home loan. Not that you'd know, Senator Kerry, since your rich wife paid off your mortgage.

(7) You say that we won the war, but we're losing the peace because Iraq is so unstable. When Iraq was stable, it attacked Israel in the 1967 and 1973 wars. It attacked Iran. It attacked Kuwait. It gassed the Kurds. It butchered the Shiites. It fostered terrorism in the Middle East. Who wants a stable Iraq?

(8) No, it turns out Saddam Hussein didn't have weapons of mass destruction. And how crazy does that make Saddam? All he had to do was tell Hans Blix, "Look anywhere you want. Look under the bed. Look beneath the couch. Look behind the toilet tank in the third presidential palace on the left, but keep your mitts off my copies of Maxim." And Saddam could have gone on dictatoring away until Donald Rumsfeld gets elected head of the World Council of Churches. But no . . .

(9) You say I didn't have the answers in Iraq? Well, what were the questions? Was there this bad man? Was he running a bad country? That did bad things? Did it have a lot of oil money to do bad things with? Was it going to do more bad things? If those were the questions, was the answer "more time to let international sanctions and U.N. weapons inspections do their job"? No, the answer was blow the place to bits.

(10) You say I didn't have a plan for the post-war problem of Iraq? I say we blew the place to bits--what's the problem?

(11) Yes, blowing a place to bits leaves a mess behind. But it's a mess without a military to fight aggressive wars. A mess without the facilities to develop dangerous weapons. A mess that can't systematically kill, torture, and oppress millions of its own citizens. It's a mess with a message--don't mess with us!

(12) Saddam Hussein was reduced to the Unabomber--Ted Kaczynski--a nutcase hiding in the sticks. Sure, the terrorism by his supporters is frightening. Hence, its name, "terrorism." Killing innocent people by surprise is not called "a thousand points of light." But, as frightening as terrorism is, it's the weapon of losers. The minute somebody sets off a suicide bomb, you can be sure that person doesn't have "career prospects." And no matter how horrendous a terrorist attack is, it's still conducted by losers. Winners don't need to hijack airplanes. Winners have an Air Force.

(13) You say you're going to get our friends and allies to take a bigger role in Iraq. Senator Kerry, what friends and allies? You're a sophisticated fellow. You're well-traveled and speak French. Are there some countries out there that you know about and the rest of us have never heard of?

(14) Let me tell you something, Senator Kerry. I don't blame the U.N. for not supporting me in Iraq. The world is full of loathsome governments run by criminals, thugs, and beasts. When I mentioned "regime-change," hairy little ears *****ed up all over the earth. Beads of sweat broke out on low, sloping brows. Blood-stained, grasping hands began to tremble. I had to put poor Colin Powell on the phone to various hyenas in high office and have him explain that America itself needed regime-change from 1992 to 2000. And we didn't bomb the fellow responsible, and we only impeached him a little. Secretary Powell had to tell Kim Jung Il, Robert Mugabe, and Jacques Chirac to quit worrying and look at Bill Clinton and realize the fate that awaits them is a lucrative lecture tour, a best-selling book, and many willing, plump young women.

(15) Senator Kerry, you say you were in favor of threatening to use force on Saddam Hussein, but that actually using force was wrong. The technical term for this in political science is "********."

(16) What are you going to do, Senator, give Saddam Hussein a mulligan and let him take his tee shot over?


P.J. O'Rourke is a contributing editor to The Weekly Standard and author of, most recently, Peace Kills.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/004/770chlec.asp?pg=2”

“Mutt, what a load. You're better than that post, I'm sure.”

“I heard on TV last night the claim that Bush was wearing a wire for the last debate with a transmitter hidden in his jacket and a tiny earpiece to hear messages.”

““I heard on TV last night the claim that Bush was wearing a wire for the last debate with a transmitter hidden in his jacket and a tiny earpiece to hear messages.”

RichB
6:50:33 AM
10/13/04

60 minutes was on last night?”

“I got a picture of the supposed 'wire' if you wanna see it.”

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“Hey, we got another episode of Whack-A-Mole coming up Friday.”

“Doh! Whack-A-Mole was on Friday last week; it's on Wednesday this week. These miniseries coming on different nights is gonna drive me sane!”

“Didn't anyone watch the debate tonight? I missed it. I caught one tiny part. Kerry was saying Middle Eastern people are coming into the U.S. through the Mexican border, allegedly. ALLEGEDLY, you can use that word all day long. Alledgely means, I don't know what I am talking about, but I will say someting that will make you (the president) sound bad if people believe me.

The president even had to tell him he didn't know what he was talking about once. That is what I keep saying the problem is with these guys running for president and vice president. They will say a lot of things that they can do or what could have been done, because they have no experience to know what can be accomplished.

Did anyone hear the old mayor of NY. Mayor Guliani is someone to look up to. He turned NY around, and went after the mafia. He is behind Bush, and he is honest with saying he doesn't believe in everything Bush says, but Bush is the best choice. He does what he thinks is right and does not bend what he says according to the political climate like Kerry.

Thank goodness Kerry is not a republican, where I might feeled forced to vote for him inorder to stay a republican, because if he were a republican, I would note vote for him. He just talks, and has no idea if he can impliment any ideas he has.”

“I have nothing more to say.

We'll see everyone on election night.”

“I finally was able to catch one of the debates start-to-finish.

I remain very pi$$ed at the Dem's for putting up someone as lame as Kerry. Like many, I really wanted an alternative to Bush. He ain't it.

What's really sad for all of us is that one of those two guys will be President for 4 years.

Guess it's time to go backpacking.”

“FOX News
Who won the debate?

Bush...35%

Kerry..65%

I'm sure that will tighten up. Republicans will say Bush won and Democrats will say Kerry won....

I'm stunned, absolutely stunned.

Luckily, it's the 5% that will decide this race and since they seem to be voting on issues rather then rhetoric, I'm OK with that..”

“I was switching back & forth between Fox (leans right) and CNN (leans left), I came to the conclusion that if you're a Bushie you think your man won, and if you're a Dem you think Kerry won.

Personally, I thought they both lost. Kerry is the most negative politician I've ever heard & has an uncanny knack for rarely answering the question posed to him, and Bush, is, well, Bush.”

“I alway's think the debates are a tie. I guess it's because I don't really like either candidate and I enjoy hearing them act like jerks to each other. As far as I'm concerned both candidates lost . . . my vote.

Independants other than Nader:

Constitutional: Michael Peroutka
Libertarian: Michael Badnarik

(Write-ins)
Socialist Workers: James Harris
Green: David Cobb
Workers World: John Parker

(no party affiliation, to my knowledge)
Thomas Zych
Richard Duncan
Joe Schriner

This is what is on the ballot in Ohio. Since it only takes a declaration of intent to be a write in I don't see that the states should vary too much unless some of these write ins got signatures in other states.”

“Kerry's constant, and I do mean constant, negative attacking Bush on every issue (every single issue) I think is wearing thin with voters. He can't say anything good or positive about anything. He can't smile. He's stiff. He just spouts stats. And critcizes. Nearly every time he speaks he starts with, "I regret to say... blah blah blah". I just can't see how that is attractive to undecided voters.

For stating their positions, I feel they both did well, and I admitted Bush lost the first one, I thought the second one was even, and I sincerely think Bush came out on top on this final one. He was just personable, likable, he smiled, and his response about meeting his wife Laura was very touching. I just don't think Kerry connects on a personal, emotional level. Some people like that, some don't. We'll soon see what most people think.”

“All the con men I have ever known, connect on that "personal, emotional level".....it's how they work it.

Kerry is stiff and somewhat unapproachable.....Bush makes my skin crawl.

Thats only my opinion.”

“Hey, does everyone remember that one year we were all supposed to write in Sarabelle for a gov't position? That was too funny, lol:)”

“He just talks, and has no idea if he can impliment any ideas he has.

Amen. Kerry is a whiney ba$tard who has all sorts of plans, but no way to implement them.

Until last night, I was undecided. But I'm all set now.”

“Uhh, Buck, Kerry smiled quite a few times last night. I will agree that his delivery can make you forget that he smiled, though.
It's a race between someone who speaks policy fluently, albeit boringly, and a person who has difficulty with complex thought. We all know GW has been working with insufficient intelligence.”

“from an aol poll this morning:

Who won the debate?

John Kerry 52%
George Bush 48%
Did it change the candidate you support?
No 73%
Yes, I now support Kerry 15%
Yes, I now support Bush 12%
Total Votes: 566,378”

“I have never, in all my years, witnessed a presidency that has been perfect. This administration has not offered the American people anything as to how it can improve on its record, which is extremely far from perfect. Even when asked, the smug one could not even own up to any mistakes. Has this adminstration had such an incredible success ratio in their policies that they can't even give voters a clue as to how they might even go as far as to tweak certain policies. Sorry, but another four year run of this nonsense is not in the best interests of this country, IMO. Kerry's getting my vote. He may not have all the answers, but perhaps it's a start to undo the mess this substandard administraion has given us...”

“ruh roh, bushie”

“When I started watching the debate I thought they were running the first one again. Just the same old talking points being repeated as in the first one and from the campagne trail. I did notice Kerry made a point of giving Dubya a good harty back slap. Probably checkin' for lumps! LOL!”

“ Its good to be in DC

Need shockwave on your m/c.”

“Bush has destroyed the environment, economy, education system, and even the Feds that are supposed to be his employees. All in 3 1/2 years. Kerry may not be a shining star, but at least he doesn't have a proven record of destroying everything we need to be a strong and healthy country/people.

If Kerry does the same damage over the next 4 years he won't get my vote next time, but for this election I'm certainly not voting for Bush.”

“It was pretty anti-climactic overall. Very predictable. This was to be an endurance contest, with both of them playing it pretty low-key, I think. The only way there would be a clear winner was if one or the other had a major gaffe, or if one said something that the media would grab hold of and run with. It seems that didn't happen that way. I'm glad it's over as further exchanges like this would be nothing but fruitless...
last edited: 10/14/04 8:07:53 AM”

“True Treebeard. I'm just ready to have this crap done with. The sad thing is I don't think the political meanness will go down one bit round here even after the election. Well, maybe a little because a few people will be gone. LOL!”

“I watched part of it. It was very disturbing to see both candidates to go off on tangents and never really answer the questions that they were asked.


It's really sad when both major candidates for president are mediocre at best.”

“True enough, lol. You know, it's funny. I was thinking the other day that people like you in battleground states must be absolutely inundated with political commercials. You know, I have not seen as much as ONE ad since this whole thing started...
last edited: 10/14/04 8:22:09 AM”

“Of course, this state is not worth spending any resources on for either candiadate...”

“Very true Treebeard. The only political commercials I've seen have been for Albany County state senate. I can’t even vote for those candidates because I don’t live in Albany County. lol”

“But, they give you the privilege of watching them anyway, Zac!

I saw one for Chuck Schumer this morning. That was about it...”

“I watched the latest episode of "Whack-A-Mole last night. I thought Shrub would pass out when Kerry used the word truth. And it took Shrub several exchanges to get the spittle off the corner of his mouth.

But he has learned to stand up straight and not scowl.”

“....todays political climate.


"Personally, I thought they both lost....."

I disagree somewhat....only because I feel that it's the American people who have lost through this whole thing, having to pick between such "gentileman" to be our President.

This thing isn't over when this election is over, IMHO. If the Repubs lose, what's left of them will be looking to take it out on the moderates of their party and try to take revenge on the Dems for the next four years. If the Dems lose, it'll be another fours years of bangin` thier heads against the wall, shouting and screaming against a lame duck Pres that will get us further in the mud than we ever thought possible.

The most benifical situation for the American people:

The Repubs lose, the moderates split and pull from the conversative section of the Dems and form a sizeable third party to run against Kerry in '08, and what ever moron the Right puts up. Maybe they (the third party) for the onset, pull some heavy weights outta both sides, like McCain from the Right and maybe someone like Levan from the Left, into the new party.


If the Dems lose, they'll be putting "Billary" Clinton up in an open round election run in '08. For that reason alone, I don't see why people don't vote Kerry. You wanna see Mrs. Clinton's mug everywhere in just four short years?

If the third party runs in '08, per the above situation, they might not win, but depending on how the chips fall, they gain the exposure and experiance they need. Then they could be in a position where they could be very involved party and a player for the '12 open election run.

Just think of it: In just 8 years time, we could have a strong, or at the very least - another, candidate to pick from!

In closing, we need a third party more now than ever. Not just for the obvious, short term gains that we get from having a fledging third party, but for the long haul. Establish a third party now will help when in the future, MNC's will start to by-pass the political parties all together, and just run "their guy". A MNC has enough private funds that it could in fact out-spend and out-market any traditional political candidate. It makes the chances of tradititonal Democracy we enjoy presently, able to survive a possible on slaught of big business.”

““ Its good to be in DC

Need shockwave on your m/c.”

Too funny... !

BTW, is it me, or did Bush completely mangle the word "citizenry"?”

“Just like he mangled "internets" last round.”

“"BTW, is it me, or did Bush completely mangle the word "citizenry"?...."

It's not you. The man talks like he has a mouth full of marbles. The guy is supposed to be our figure to the world? The man never misses a chance to butcher the english word!”

“Was its Rove's idea to have Beavis feed lines to the Spitmeister through his ear mic? Not really a good move IMO. That cackle scared my dog.”

“the biggest message people can send to both parties is not to vote for either one.

I am a registered Democrat but normally I vote for my favorite crook. I don't think Bush has done a good job. I don't think Kerry can anything done with a Republican Congress.

Kerry IMO can't do any worse than Bush has but my vote will go to no one this yr.

I do agree with laqtis that Hillary will be the Dems candidate in 08.

We need an independent party badly. I know there are enough Rep & Dems who think alike that could form a strong 3rd party.”

“Hillary, my ass!

Howard Dean”

“President Bush makes Guiness Book of World Records

The president handily beat the previous record holder, Arnie Snerdpuppy, in the category, Longest Time to hold Spittle on the Lips.”

“He was droolin'”

“Hillary/Dean ticket???

how about a Liberman/McCain ticket”

“Ewker - Use your vote however you wish; that [i]is [i]your choice! But please, what ever you do, at least go to the booth to vote on other issues that will be up, like bond issues, local level elections. These are the areas that the people can make an immediate impact to thier surrounding enviroment! What people complain about "not having a say in government", one of the first questions outta me is "Did you vote in your last local election?" Unfortunatly, most say no.

I'm trying to make a "run" on ya, Ewk! Your post gave me a little opp to get on the soapbox! I just want to make sure people just go and vote. Or go there and don't register vote in protest!

Just don't verbally say anything, as you could get kicked out. heheheee”

“WOW laqtis!!!

You have got it, I totally agree. Coming from Canada I can't believe America doesn't have a third party. It just makes sense, having three, it would sure keep the congress and the senate much more honest. I do not understand the two-sidedness of this country, and all the certain things each side must believe in.... it just seems weird.
Right now we have the greatest government anyone could imagine in Canada, it is reffered to as a minority government, meaning that the Primeminister's party does not hold the majority of seats in the House. They were split during the last election. So what happens, is that all parties have to come to some type of agreement together in order to pass and solve issues. When this type of government governs Canada we see a lot of good and honest legislation come out of the house, and it represents a majority of Canadians ideals, and standards. This type of government is not possible unless you have at least 3 main parties.
The third party helps to keep the two main parties honest and on track, reminding them that their are vast differences out their that they represent. I was saying to my partner that it shold be mandatory to issue so many seats in congress and in the senate to independants, or bi-partisan's, that way the dems and repubs have to convince them in order for them to pass, instead of having majority, and thats what it really comes down to.
Democracy is great, but there is always an amount of people in the end who get left out, and when the election is as close as it was in 2000, then a lot of peoples views are ignored, hence the dems in this instance. So how can you make Democracy work for all, begin a third party, make your congress and your senate work for you as the people, not for businesses, and sided issues. Be heard, challenge the "plans" of your candidate, and for god sakes let them know when they are not representing you properly. This is your livelyhood, not just a popularity poll were talking about. The most important thing right now though is, GET OUT TO THE POLLS ON NOVEMBER 2nd AND VOTE VOTE VOTE !!!!!! Bring your brains with you, and choose the candidates who are representing what YOU want, not what your parents or your boss or your neighbors or your friends or your party wants. Be real and true to yourself, and maybe just maybe we will finally see some change in our Country and in our World.”

“laqtis, I will go vote on the other issues that effect me locally. Yeah the Pres. does but neither is worthy of it this time.
This will be the first time I have not voted for someone for Pres.

Heck, I voted for Perot the 1st time he ran. I felt he could have done a better job than Bush Sr or Clinton.

IMO, what this country needs is a business man to run it. We don't need a career politician or lawyer running it.

The goverment is a business and it needs to be run that way.”

“When Bob Dull ran against Slick Willie, I cast a write-in vote for my boss as my form of protest. Went to work the next day and told him he can tell his grandkids that he once received one vote for president of the United States.

It didn't change the dynamics of the race, but I felt better for it.

I have long advocated that there should be a category for "neither of the above." And if that category polled a plurality, they should just leave the office vacant for four years.”