Celsius 41.11

“I guess this is old news for some, but I saw where Celsius 41.11 is going to be released. Even though I've already voted, really curious to go see this. Should be interesting.

One reviewer said: "If you loved Fahrenheit 9-11, you HAVE to see this. This is an enlightening review of much of what's said against Bush, by Moore and others, showing what really happened with NO funny editing and presented neutrally.. Judge for yourself, and you'll come out SURPRISED at what you've learned, and be glad you did.
I saw it at a screening in LA, and the reaction was hugely positive, from people on both sides..It doesn't cause anger, even in partisans.. It enlightens."

Another says, "THE TRUTH ABOUT MOORE (the modern-day version of Joseph Goebbels) MUST BE KNOWN!"

Hmmmm... who's Joseph Goebbels? Well I looked it up, and felt "historically-ignorant" afterwards.



Master propagandist of the Nazi regime and dictator of its cultural life for twelve years, Joseph Goebbels was born into a strict Catholic, working-class family from Rheydt, in the Rhineland, on 29 October 1897. He was educated at a Roman Catholic school and went on to study history and literature at the University of Heidelberg under Professor Friedrich Gundolf, a Jewish literary historian renowned as a Goethe scholar and a close disciple of the poet Stefan George.
Goebbels had been rejected for military service during World War I because of a crippled foot - the result of contracting polio as a child - and a sense of physical inadequacy tormented him for the rest of his life, reinforced by resentment of the reactions aroused by his diminutive frame, black hair and intellectual background. Bitterly conscious of his deformity and fearful of being regarded as a "bourgeois intellectual," Goebbels overcompensated for his lack of the physical virtues of the strong, healthy, blond, Nordic type by his ideological rectitude and radicalism once he joined the NSDAP in 1922.

The hostility to the intellect of the "little doctor," his contempt for the human race in general and the Jews in particular, and his complete cynicism were an expression of his own intellectual self-hatred and inferiority complexes, his overwhelming need to destroy everything sacred and ignite the same feelings of rage, despair and hatred in his listeners.

=========================================

It's an interesting comparison. Not sure if I buy it though. Michael Moore just doesn't seem to be in the same league.

One of the guys making the Goebbels comparison has the following as his signature below his post:

"KILL ALL MOSLEM ISLAMIC MILITANTS AND ANY WHO SUPPORT OR ABET. NOW."

Wow.. and Michael Moore is radical??”

“So I guess the next question is who is this Lionel Chetwynd guy. So I looked him up also.

Lionel Chetwynd: Executive Producer

Born in England and raised in Canada, where he served with the Black Watch, Royal Highland Regiment of Canada, Lionel Chetwynd is a naturalized U.S. citizen. He graduated from Sir George Williams University in Montreal, attended McGill University Law School, and later attended Oxford University for graduate studies in law.
A member of the National Sponsoring Committee of the Vietnam Veterans Memorial Fund (VVMF), Chetwynd wrote and directed the theatrical feature The Hanoi Hilton, and he received an Academy Award nomination for his screenplay adaptation for The Apprenticeship of Duddy Kravitz. In 2001, Chetwynd was appointed by President George W. Bush to serve on the President’s Committee on the Arts and Humanities.

Chetwynd recently wrote and produced DC 9/11: Time of Crisis, a docudrama for Showtime Networks recounting the nine days in the Bush administration between the time of the September 11, 2001 attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon and the president’s televised address to the nation before Congress. For his film Varian’s War on Showtime Networks, Chetwynd received a Writer’s Guild of America nomination for Outstanding Screenplay, with the film itself a Gold Jury Award winner at the Houston Film Festival. For his screenplay adaptation for the 1995 Emmy Award-winning miniseries The Bible Joseph, one of three Bible stories he scripted for TNT, he received a Writers Guild of America Award nomination for Best Adapted Screenplay. Other television movie credits include Ruby Ridge, An American Tragedy, a four-hour miniseries for CBS; Kissinger and Nixon, for which Chetwynd received both Writers Guild and Gemini Award (Canada) nominations for Outstanding Script; The Man Who Captured Eichmann, a movie for TNT which earned Chetwynd a Cable Ace Award nomination; Color of Justice, for which he was nominated for a Writers Guild Award for Movie or Miniseries and a PEN USA Literary Award nomination for Outstanding Screenplay.

Chetwynd also penned To Heal a Nation, the Fabulous Showman: The Life of P.T. Barnum, a four-hour miniseries for A&E, and Tom Clancy’s Net Force, a four-hour miniseries for ABC.

As an award-winning documentarian, Chetwynd created and was an executive producer of the highly acclaimed series of National Desk public affairs specials, garnering four Telly Awards, and a Gold Medal at the New York Film Festival for the Children of Divorce episode, and before that, Reverse Angle, both on PBS. Chetwynd also wrote, produced and directed Darkness at High Noon: The Carl Foreman Documents, a feature-length documentary chronicling the life and career of blacklisted filmmaker Carl Foreman.

Chetwynd wrote The American 1776, the official U.S. Bicentennial Film, and in 1987, was commissioned to create and write a special tribute to the U.S. Congress as part of the nation’s yearlong Constitutional Bicentennial celebration. The prestigious event was staged before members of Congress and the president’s Cabinet.

Chetwynd is married to motion picture, television and stage actress Gloria Carlin. The couple have two sons and make their home in Los Angeles.”

“Then I looked a little farther... and found:



Lionel Chetwynd, left, and Ted Steinberg, who wrote "Celsius 41.11.

Ah ha.. so Chetwynd only directed, this Steinberg guy is the writer. So let's check him out. hMmm.. is this the same guy?



If so, his biblio looks really respectable.

==========================================

Ted Steinberg, CWRU professor of history and law, moves nature from its pretty scenery in the background of the country's past to the forefront of history in his new book, Down to Earth: Nature's Role in American History (Oxford University Press).

Before the 1960s, American historians tended to focus primarily on the elections of leaders, wars and diplomatic undertakings. With the civil rights movement and Vietnam War, new social historians shifted from this top-down approach to a more "bottom-up" perspective that focuses on such groups as the poor, working class, African Americans, women and gays.

Steinberg is among a group of environmental historians who say the time has come to dig into the earth itself, to see how nature impacted history.

"Historians have ignored the environment and nature at their peril and missed out on some fundamental aspects of how the past unfolded," he said. "If you factor in the natural world, what you often find is that things do not turn out the way people thought they were going to turn out because nature is inherently unpredictable."

Steinberg cites more than 100 examples of nature's influence on the past, going back as far as the 1607 Jamestown settlement. Historians often dismiss the early years of Jamestown's history with a word or two about starvation. Steinberg, however, digs beneath the surface, examining scientific records to discover that European settlers unfortunately colonized the area during the worst drought in 800 years. Starvation and salt poisoning were the results.”

“I did get a laugh out of this though -- "Celsius 41.11 - The Temperature at Which the Brain Begins to Die"

After its premiere in Georgetown on Tuesday night, there seemed to be two prevailing sentiments among the solidly Republican crowd of 300. One was that the film is a lot more thoughtful and accurate than "Fahrenheit 9/11." The other was that it is not going to gross $100 million.

==========================================

The New York times says, ""Celsius 41.11" offers a point-by-point defense of President Bush (listed on the screen like a PowerPoint presentation) by politicians, journalists and scholars discoursing on the legality of the Florida recount in 2000, the Clinton administration's record on fighting terrorism and the theory of American exceptionalism.

The film does have a few "Fahrenheit"-style juxtapositions, like an image of the World Trade Center burning as Mr. Moore declares: "This needs to be said on national television. There is no terrorist threat." The discussion of Europe's slow response to Hitler is illustrated with a picture of French antiwar demonstrators in 1938 holding up signs saying "Non" - which inspired a hiss from the Republicans on Tuesday."

and went on further to say -- ""It would be easy to string together a montage of Kerry footage as the man of athletic leisure, make him out to be a wealthy dilettante, the way that Moore did with Bush," Mr. Chetwynd said, alluding to the recurrent images of Mr. Bush on vacation in "Fahrenheit 9/11." "But we wanted to deconstruct the anybody-but-Bush argument by taking Kerry on his own terms, as a serious man."

The film was financed and produced by Citizens United, a conservative group in Washington. In June it asked the Federal Elections Commission to stop Mr. Moore from running advertisements for his film during the period before the election when political commercials by outside groups are restricted. That complaint was dismissed after Mr. Moore said he would not run the commercials in question."

========================================

hMM.. Citizens United .. well.. let's check them out next..
last edited: 10/20/04 6:56:52 AM”

“Citizens United (http://www.citizensunited.org/)

Well now.. this puts it in an interesting light..



On that same page.. "Amidst the hype surrounding the release of former President Clinton’s new book, “My Life”, Citizens United sets the record straight by exposing the real legacy President Bill Clinton left for America.

The former President will be publicizing his new memoir during his first televised interview to CBS’ “60 Minutes” on Sunday, June 20, 2004.

The Citizens United ad, which was to debut during the interview, shows multiple images of terrorist attacks throughout Clinton’s presidency that he failed to respond to, including: the World Trade Center bombings in 1993, the Khobar Towers bombing in 1996 the dual embassy bombings in East Africa in 1998, and the bombing of the U.S.S. Cole in 2000.

President Clinton gutted defense and intelligence spending and was MIA for eight years while terrorists continuously attacked the United States. Consequently, President Bush inherited a decayed intelligence apparatus and a terrorist network, already living among Americans, that was planning the largest attack ever on U.S. soil.

Citizens United believes America needs a strong leader in the War on Terror, and President Bush has proved that his steadfast and principled leadership is crucial to defeat our enemies for this generation and generations to come."
last edited: 10/20/04 7:00:48 AM”

“I saw Farenheit 911 this weekend. A co-worker had made an illegal copy of the DVD.

I cannot believe that this piece of crap was touted as anything other than a bad movie. Forget the lies, out of context comments, and fiction this was just a bad movie. Boring comes to mind. Juvenile would be another word to describe it. If this was what all the hype was about the Republicans did not need Celcius 41.11 to refute that POS movie.”

“Wow.. and who's one of the strongest supporters of Citizens United? Senator Fred Thompson of Tennessee.

”

“
And hey, we can even sign a petition supporting Bush, and the Iraq war.

Citizens United Foundation was established in 1992 as a non-partisan, non-profit research and education foundation, under Section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code. CUF is dedicated to informing the American people about public policy issues which relate to traditional American values, including: the Constitution as the supreme limit on federal power, a strong national defense as the primary role of the federal government; free enterprise as the economic system that has enabled the American people to attain and maintain an historically high standard of living; belief in God and Judeo/Christian values as the fundamental attribute of our way of life; and the recognition of the family as the basic social unit of our society. CUF fulfills its mission through various projects, including: American Sovereignty Action Project, Center for Government Integrity and National Citizens Legal Network.
last edited: 10/20/04 7:10:13 AM”

“Celcius 41.11 is a serious movie compared to Michael Moore's Fahrenheit 9/11 where he actually used footage of the Pentagon in flames as a sight gag.”

“bbw: I disagree, but that is what makes the world go around. From what I can tell from the latest polls, your man is going to win, but Farenheit 9/11 albeit just a movie, and perhaps even a bad movie -- sums up pretty much exactly how I feel about Bush.

but hey, again -- I respect your opinions, and your conviction to express them.

:) May God bless America in the days to come.”

“Prosecutor, you on the other hand can die and go to hell.

LOL.. I'm kidding!!.. I swear!!..”

“In the opening scene of F-911 they talk about how a state wide recount would have given the election to Gore. There was a state wide recount. President Bush won the second time also.

How is that not a lie?
last edited: 10/20/04 7:09:46 AM”

“bbw: I recognize that thread degeneration is a centerpiece of TrailTalk, but can we stick to Celsius 41.11, and not stray off to Farenheit 9/11 though? That subject has been beaten to death on here.
last edited: 10/20/04 7:12:11 AM”

“You brought up F-911 in your first post.

Why don't you answer my question?”

“I didn't bring up F911, I quoted a reviewer who did.

As for why that is not a lie? All you want to do is pick a fight, and all I want to do is discuss a new film. That seems to be two totally different things to me.

Florida recount, county by county

Florida Undervote Count Totals
Latest results from the recount of undervotes in the presidential race in Florida. Republican George W. Bush led Democrat Al Gore by 177 votes in the statewide vote, which includes new unofficial vote tallies reported by some of Florida's 67 counties that were ordered by the Florida Supreme Court to recount disputed ballots. The AP county-by-county tally is an unofficial survey of ballots. The vote totals are the subject of federal legal challenges. Results from Miami-Dade, Orange, Osceola, Pinellas, Santa Rosa and Suwannee counties are incomplete and represent only a portion of the hand count of undervotes. Escambia, Liberty, Madison, Manatee and Palm Beach totals are complete recounts. Overseas ballot gains had boosted Bush's total to 930. The lead was reduced to 537 votes when the secretary of state certified results last month. Additional manual counts in Palm Beach and Miami-Dade reduced the margin to 193 before additional counts began Saturday.
Bush Bush Change Gore Gore Change
Alachua 34,135 - 47,380 -
Baker 5,611 - 2,392 -
Bay 38,682 - 18,873 -
Bradford 5,416 - 3,075 -
Brevard 115,253 - 97,341 -
Broward 177,939 - 387,760 -
Calhoun 2,873 - 2,156 -
Charlott 35,428 - 29,646 -
Citrus 29,801 - 25,531 -
Clay 41,903 - 14,668 -
Collier 60,467 - 29,939 -
Columbia 10,968 - 7,049 -
Dade 289,704 130 329,165 298
De Soto 4,256 - 3,321 -
Dixie 2,697 - 1,827 -
Duval 152,460 - 108,039 -
Escambia 73,177 6 40,999 9
Flagler 12,618 - 13,897 -
Franklin 2,454 - 2,047 -
Gadsden 4,770 - 9,736 -
Gilchris 3,300 - 1,910 -
Glades 1,841 - 1,442 -
Gulf 3,553 - 2,398 -
Hamilton 2,147 - 1,723 -
Hardee 3,765 - 2,342 -
Hendry 4,747 - 3,240 -
Hernando 30,658 - 32,648 -
Highland 20,207 - 14,169 -
Hilsboro 180,794 - 169,576 -
Holmes 5,012 - 2,177 -
Indianrv 28,639 - 19,769 -
Jackson 9,139 - 6,870 -
Jeffrson 2,478 - 3,041 -
Lafayete 1,670 - 789 -
Lake 50,010 - 36,571 -
Lee 106,151 - 73,571 -
Leon 39,073 - 61,444 -
Levy 6,863 - 5,398 -
Liberty 1,317 - 1,018 1
Madison 3,040 2 3,019 4
Manatee 58,035 12 49,240 14
Marion 55,146 - 44,674 -
Martin 33,972 - 26,621 -
Monroe 16,063 - 16,487 -
Nassau 16,408 - 6,955 -
Okaloosa 52,186 - 16,989 -
Okeechob 5,057 - 4,589 -
Orange 134,560 29 140,283 47
Osceola 26,245 8 28,198 11
Palmbech 153,291 327 270,257 503
Pasco 68,607 - 69,576 -
Pinellas 184,851 2 200,658 1
Polk 90,310 - 75,207 -
Putnam 13,457 - 12,107 -
St Johns 39,564 - 19,509 -
St Lucie 34,705 - 41,560 -
Sntarosa 36,350 11 12,820 2
Sarasota 83,117 - 72,869 -
Seminole 75,790 - 59,227 -
Sumter 12,127 - 9,637 -
Suwannee 8,013 4 4,077 1
Taylor 4,058 - 2,649 -
Union 2,332 - 1,407 -
Volusia 82,368 - 97,313 -
Wakulla 4,512 - 3,838 -
Walton 12,186 - 5,643 -
Washngtn 4,995 - 2,798 -
TOTALS 2,913,321 531 2,913,144 891
last edited: 10/20/04 7:18:58 AM”

“Unless you have newer information, what I see in that report is that the recount is only an estimated count. No "official" count exists.

As for who won Florida, I don't care. It's old news. Bush is our President, and had his chance to show us what sort of man he is.”

“A year after the presidential election of 2000, the nation could finally close the electoral count. A spate of commentary and multiple revisions of the vote culminated in an authoritative study sponsored by eight news organizations, conducted by the National Opinion Research Center of the University of Chicago.
The final count showed that George W. Bush would remain as the winner of Florida's electoral vote, and therefore the presidency, under one limited set of rules - those prescribed by the Florida Supreme Court in December of 2000, and blocked by the U.S. Supreme Court in its Bush v. Gore decision. Under these rules, Bush's margin would be diminished to 493 votes, but he would still be entitled to his office.
Bush's title, however, rests on narrow legalistic grounds. The Florida vote was tainted by a series of errors and political interpretations. Under a full accounting, Gore most likely would be president. Distortions existed both in the votes that were counted, those that were not tallied, and those that were not cast. In the first group, votes included under court guidelines in the official tally, there are two difficulties.

http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/~gpomper/FloridaRecount.doc
last edited: 10/20/04 7:22:56 AM”

“There was an official recount in Florida. It was required by State Law. You have your facts wrong.”

“I guess you are going to argue with AP, Associated Press, and the Rutgers report.

"If Bush's lawyers had won their demand for a state-wide recount, they would have lost the election. The Republicans might even have been better off if they had not pursued the court case and left the ultimate decision to the constitutional process, decision by the incoming House of Representatives."

And from another source -- "After spending nearly $1 million, a consortium of big news organizations last week rendered what it once thought would be final word on last year's bitterly contested Florida recount.

The decision: a split verdict.

To the chagrin of Democratic partisans, the consortium proclaimed Bush still would have won the apparently limited statewide recount underway last December 9 even if the U.S. Supreme Court had not swooped in and stopped it. But if all disputed ballots had been manually counted--something, ironically, neither side had even asked for--Al Gore could have eked out a narrow victory."

=====================================

So can we get back to subject at hand, please?
last edited: 10/20/04 7:30:00 AM”

“I am saying that there was a state wide recount conducted by the State of Florida. In both counts the President won.”

“It is very telling that you were unaware of the official recount.”

“There was an official recount. I understand that. As official as official can get, but as any of the editorial reports will tell you, regardless of who won, it's easy to tell who lost. The voting process is flawed.

All I am saying is that if you look beneath the headlines, and read the content -- you discover that the accounts all admit that it is just as good as they could get it, given the limited effectiveness of the process.

Official? Do you know anything about statistics?”

“"It is very telling that you were unaware of the official recount.”



I hear you loud and clear.”

“I know that claiming the President would have lost in a recount is a lie, because there was a recount and he won. The entire F-911 movie was like this. Half truths and lies, but worse it was boring and dull.”

“The voting in Florida was controlled by Democrats. If it was flawed then, blaming the President or his brother is a lie.”

“bbw: Just curious. What's your favorite movie in recent memory? Or your favorite movie of all time?”

“Prosecutor died and, upon entering heaven, met St. Peter. St. Peter said, "In the interest of fairness, we want to give you the option to stay here in heaven, or to go to hell. You can look around here for a few minutes, then go visit hell for a while before you decide. The catch is that your decision is final-no changing your mind.\"

So, Prosecutor started walking around heaven; what he saw, he thought to be a bit boring. People were playing horseshoes, bridge, drinking tea. It wasn\'t bad, but it did look kind of slow. He mentioned this to St. Peter, and asked for his visit to hell before his decision.

Immediately, Prosecutor he found himself standing in front of two huge doors imprinted with "HELL." Expecting the handle to be hot, he reached gingerly for it. Surprisingly, the handle was cool to the touch. Proceeding through the doors, he found a flurry of activity. TT people were standing around eating crab cakes, chicken Taquitos, drinking, dancing and playing golf - in general having a great time. Prosecutor thought that this looked like much more fun than heaven, so he promptly returned to St. Peter and told him that he had chosen hell.

Once again, Prosecutor found himself in front of the huge doors. Reaching to open the door, he scorched his hand on the blisteringly hot handle. After entering, he was faced with heat hotter than a summer backpacking trip in Tennessee, freeze dried food with no water, and he could hear horrendous screaming and moaning of former posters from the other side. He stood there, incredulous. The devil walked up and asked if there was some problem. "Yes," Prosecutor replied, "I was just down here ten minutes ago, and it wasn't hot, and people were partying and having a great time! What happened?"

"Well," the devil replied, "that was when we were campaigning - now you have voted!!"”

“LMAO!!... Good one, Ed.

;)”

“This could be the one thing that gets me to sit down and watch Fatass's movie. I'd like to see the new one but I'd be stupid for not seeing Fatass's movie first.”

“Nigal: He IS a fatass!! For real! LOL.. You'd think he could achieve a little better self-image while on his slacker uprising tour.”

“Spare yourself Nigal. It is a snoozefest.”

“Yeah, for a guy who's all about the people and against the rich fat cats he sure hasn't missed a meal. Be kind of cool to see his house and see how HE'S living.”

“bbw: Why don't you answer my question?”

“The movie question? I don't really have a favorite. I don't like questions that ask your favorite this or that. I like different things about a lot of things, but back to your question.

Movies that I really like, About Schmidt, Antwon Fisher, Sgt. York, Forrest Gump, Excaliber, No Man's Land (Bosnian version), Resevoir Dogs. I am sure I am leaving out several.

Among the worst movies I would list Kill Bill. I have never watched a Steven Segal movie.”

“"Dear Indoogoo..."”

“Interesting that you would like Reservoir Dogs, but not Kill Bill. How did you feel about Pulp Fiction?

Interesting collection though. Very eclectic.
:)”

“The real question is though, why do you stray away from questions "that ask your favorite this or that?"

My guess is that they reveal things about you, and you are enjoying your anominity. I wonder if I asked where the last place you hiked, what my answer would be. Not asking for your "favorite" as such -- only the last place your feet made contact with the earth.”

“Kill Bill was a great flick. Kill Bill II...not as good.”

“Well Kill Bill I took the traditional Tarentino approach of presenting content out of sequence.

Kill Bill II, for some reason, as I remember did not.

I liked them both actually.
last edited: 10/20/04 10:26:58 AM”

“I think I answered why I don't like questions about favorites.

Pulp Fiction was good too. Kill Bill was pure fantasy. Reservoir Dogs had a sense of reality to it. Tim Roth bled enough to kill two men, but most of the film was believable.”

“Kill Bill was tailored to a Matrix-generation. I doubt it was meant to be taken as fact.”

“Then why did you find it interesting that I did not like it?”

“Hey bbw, did you like About Schmitt so much for the story of Kathy Bates' full frontal nude shot? LOL!”

“I found it interesting, because typically folks that like a particular movie director -- tend to enjoy other works that they have done -- and since you mentioned Reservoir Dogs (A relatively obscure movie) in the same breath as Kill Bill -- I assumed you were a Tarentino fan.

Also, I wasn't going to push it -- but no I didn't think you ever answered my question as to why you don't like "favorite" questions.

"The movie question? I don't really have a favorite. I don't like questions that ask your favorite this or that. I like different things about a lot of things, but back to your question."

I guess you were trying to say that you don't have favorites, because you tend to like such a wide variety of things that it would be hard to narrow it down to a "favorite" as such.
last edited: 10/20/04 2:00:46 PM”

“I still have nightmares over the Kathy Bates hot tub scene...”

“Nigal, Actually the highlight of the movie was when Schmidt was complaining about his wife's smell and they had a close up of her pit.

Very erotic.”

“Haha! Sick puppy!”

“1.8C + 32 = F

yes?”

“1.8(C) + 32=F”

“....Celsius 488.33?”