Pentagon Gives In To ACLU, Bans Boy Scouts

“http://www.aclu.org/ReligiousLiberty/ReligiousLiberty.cfm?ID=17023&c=141

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,138862,00.html

Pentagon Agrees to End Direct Sponsorship of Boy Scout Troops in Response to Religious Discrimination Charge

This is yet another reason the Dems lost and will continue losing. Crap just like this.
last edited: 11/17/04 8:05:33 PM”

“Hey, if my child takes a liberal approach to sock wearing and doesn't want them riding all the way up to his knees then I support him.”

“Units can no longer sponsor units whose sole purpose is the benefit of military dependents and yet the military still has a Chaplain corps.

I suppose that's next.

End result will be no real change. A victory on paper only. Scouts will always exist on military installations and will always be supported by military personell and units. The only difference will be where the piece of paper resides.”

“I agree Stove Man.....this is stupid.
People will focus on this kind of stuff and not other more important things.”

“in related news, God says he still likes the boy scouts and all those muslim scout and jew scout and hindu scout and buddhist scout societies are dirty infidels”

“C!B! - You sure are being naughty tonight. ;-)
When you gonna come back down South and hike? I look forward to your AT trip tales!”

“i might go on the hidden passage trip tgiving weekend”

“No slam on the Boy Scouts intended here. I was a Boy Scout and my son was as well. I just don't see where this is such a big deal guys. It's a paper tiger fellas.

You're probably right about the Dems....and that's pretty pathetic. While people are bnusy fighting this stupid culture ( latest battlefront...the Boy Scouts) that stupid, awful, unnecesssary REAL WAR created by George Bush has claimed four youngmen from my area.

One from my high school, one from my son's high school, one from the high where I teach, and one from another local school.

Sorry fellas but you can get your shorts bunched all you want about this culture war crap......I'm busy mourning lost lives, not the Boy Scouts.”

“That's four THIS WEEK. Sorry for the mistake.

You can go back to the poor Boy Scouts now.”

“JO, you understand the point I was trying to make I beleive.

Joe American will think this is important about the Scouts.
The Dems will think it's not important, but support the ban.
That's why the Dems don't 'get' it.”

“i personally dont think its fair that boy scouts are only accepting of those who profess christianity. you can give all the rationalizations you want, it means nothing to the heartbroken little jewish boy who just wants to have fun but cant cuz he wears a funny hat. those of us who are in the majority should try putting themselves in the shoes of minorities in this country. if you were a little jewish or whatever kid, you wouldnt like it, and you know it.

however, i also think the govt and the ACLU should stay out of this. but when does the ACLU stay out of anything? or the govt, for that matter.”

“put more simply for those with short attention spans, i dont agree with the boy scouts policy on having to "proclaim jesus christ as lord and saviour", but i dont believe they should be forced to change that policy either. it should come from within”

“C!B! - The tree people work with a scout group. The BSA doesn't do the anti Jew crap.”

“SS, what Dems are you speaking for. I see no mention of Dems or Reps in the article at all.

Seems you like to jump to conclusions.”

“i know they do. i went to a couple meetings. i just figured since new york is so jew-heavy they relaxed the rules there”

“or possibly "dont ask, dont tell?"”

“Nope C!B!.
I'll let HPM explain it to you.
You are working from an incorrect assumption. ;-)”

“Ewker, Ewker, Ewker......
Which party is the biggest supporter of the ACLU? Which is not?”

“ok, so they have to believe in god, but not necessarily be christian? well, that still rules out the atheists kid, the buddhists kid, the wiccans kid”

“C!B! - Check the BSA website. They explain their position very well there.”

“URL?”

“~looks at you like youre on drugs~

Buy ya books, sent ya to school......
google it!!!!!!!!!! ;-)”

“Actually SS is right....All Dem's want to remove God from this country, take your guns away and tax you until you cant stand up.


All Repub's want to make this a Christian country, remove all non Christians, send all jobs overseas, ban sex and proscribe Bush as King.”

“SS, you have people from both parties who support the ACLU. The same applies to those who don't. You did the normal republican thing and put the blame on the Dems.

Of course when the GOP changes the rules in the House it is ok since it is a Republican thing.”

“mtnsteve got it! LOL”

“dont forget the ACLU took up the KKK'S Kause”

“Anybody that makes kids wear a neckerchief is just sick in my book.”

“It sounds like this is just an extension of the "Don't ask don't tell" Policy.

snip

"I learned about masturbation from an old man in a loincloth when I was 16. He wore a black wig, and every inch of his body was painted red. He was trying hard to imitate an American Indian, but to me, he looked more like an accountant with a bad sunburn."

snip”

“ACLU also took up Drug Limbaughs privacy cause.”

“I guess the question for people here is this: Does the USA support the "Boy Scouts", or the "Christian Scouts"?

Heck, if you want to start an organization called the "Christian Scouts", and fund it with Christain dollars, go right ahead! I don't think many of us would care, until their brainwashed lil' minds voted. However, the "Boy Scouts" is just that, for boys, no matter race creed or religious orientation.

I love when religion, yet again, has divided our country by trying to force it's views under the guise of forced worship. Hopefully this will hold up. Then maybe a straight non-christian like myself will be able to mentor scouts, and not have to bleat out some oath to a version of some Christians God.”

“I also hope that the ACLU goes after these "faith based initiatives", which are publicly funded evangelical machines.”

“Crash Bang, swings and MISSES. At the risk of riling the "believers" on this board, I wonder how any "kid" not quite to his eighteenth birthday can be absolutely certain in the existence of a single entity which can be labeled "G-d." Boys at this age should be exploring THEIR reality and not just mirroring the beliefs of their folks, church, or anyone else. I think the prevailing attitude at Eagle Courts of Honor is that the boy be in awe and appreciate the immense complexity of the Universe and hold that there may be "forces" at play which we (mankind) cannot hope to fully understand.”

“Oh my. MORE great insights from that great thinker, BB. ;-)”

“BB - have you ever been to a Boy Scout meeting?”

“The ACLU helped Oliver North during Iran Contra.”

“"On my Honor, I will do my best,
to do my Duty, to God and my Country...
...and to keep myself physically strong, mentally awake and morally straight"

I hear what BB is saying...”

“To be honest with you, the closest I come to touching on religion with my boys is in the recitation of the Scout law and oath, where the words 'God' and 'reverant' are spoken. My agenda with them is not one of prayer or anything like that. My son, myself and one orthodox boy are of the Jewish faith. Another is raised without any formal religion and the rest, I believe, are christian. I do not even know as I do not delve into that territory. I don't feel it is my place to teach that to them, no matter what it says in the guidelines of the BSA. They can pursue other community organizations and practice religion all they want. I focus on teaching them leadership, community service, and outdoor skills mostly...
last edited: 11/18/04 7:59:57 AM”

““I just don't see where this is such a big deal guys. It's a paper tiger fellas.”

Very true Jo. I know I know! Hard to believe! The BSA can’t be so ignorant to think that making a stand on their personal guidelines in a modern PC culture isn’t going to call for some losses and concessions can they? Besides, the BSA said this won’t effect them in the least. Yep, I’d call that a paper tiger.”

“"I learned about masturbation from an old man in a loincloth when I was 16. He wore a black wig, and every inch of his body was painted red. He was trying hard to imitate an American Indian, but to me, he looked more like an accountant with a bad sunburn."

This is funny as hell. The funniest part is the guy didn't learn to masterbate until he was 16? 16??!! I consider myself to be fairly normal and I know I was born with my dick in my hand! LOL!”

“And yes, this appears to be pretty much a non-issue.

Stove, I think lots of us are aware of the shortcomings of the democratic party. And, contrary to popular belief, we will continue to exist in the era of Bush. You don't have to keep the election alive. After all, you don't want to be the one perpetuating it, do you? So, move on and post some stuff that tells us how, with all this increased power that your people have, they are going to unify and energize this country and finally take it in a positive direction. That I would like to see. You got the power. Use it for a change. Instead of muscle flexing and braggin about spending all that political capital, as well as telling us how we can't cope after the election. I'm over it. Are you?”

“Plus I feel that if something is good and it does serve a purpose then that thing will thrive without the governments help. Take PBS and NPR. I don’t think they should be funded by the government. It is a good product and should do fine on it’s own.”

“...and finally take it in a positive direction...

I'd say that about sums it up. We have the best of everything in this country. The most freedom, the most opportunities, the most opportunities for education, everything, yet we're not going in a positive direction? There are fundamental differences, obviously, but lets not be nieve about what has been accomplished by everyone.

I think the doom and gloom is my biggest putoff by the left. Yes, there is huge room for improvement pretty much across the board. Look at our standard of living versus, say, just after WWII. What's the average Americans level of education now versus then? What's the average American home look like now versus then? There are tons of examples.”

“What is God ?

I am an assistant scoutmaster for a troop that uses a catholic church to hold meetings.

There are a lot of Christian scouts, and predominantly Catholic, but there are also a number who are not Catholic, and a number that are not Christian.

BSA requires a belief in a higher being, and yes this does exclude atheists.
Buddists are not excluded, there is a Buddist religious award, as well as Islamic, Jewish, and Hindu awards recognized by BSA.

There have been occasions when the RC priest has come to camp on Sunday morning. On every such occasion an invitation has been issued to participate, and on every occasion probably about 1/3 of the people present have not. I am not RC and normally do not participate. I did attend/observe 1 out of curiousity but did not participate.

I thought that in this country you had the freedom to practice religion as you wish.
I have never seen a put down of any religious belief in Scouting. And think that the efforts to prevent people practicing their belief is completely wrong.

Here we have a tiny minority trying to force their lack of belief on the majority.
You can see murder, torture, sex, violence on TV and billboards, Excessive public displays of affection, but yikes the union will fall if someone actually shows any form of religious observance.

This just shows who has the total lack of any tolerance.”

“I won't be labeled simply as a doom and gloom person, DH. That's BS. You get a lot of dissent from me at times, but what am I gonna post on a fuego thread, my friend? It's no secret that I think pretty lowly of this administraion. But, again, I am over the election. Talk to the man that started the fuego here if you like. As far as standard of living, I am pretty happy overall. Although my household is making more money than ever, I think I am having the roughest ride of my life these days financially. And our lifestyle is hardly extravagent. We stay in those 4 star BPing tents when we go on vacation. lol. I think it's because the cost of necessities is so freakin' high these days, that I am having these problems. The middle class has been virtually wiped out by old standards and that is hardly a change for the better. I don't know how old you are, but there used to be an unwritten standard that people who live within their means would go by, for example. The rent you would pursue would be roughly equal to one week's salary. I don't know about where you live, but that's laughable here anymore. The average amount of discetionary spending for the average family of four is far out of proportion with what it used to be also. Again, not singing the blues to you. Not going to burden you with my problems, but just citing examples. So, this causes stress in some people's lives. Yeah, I'd say that there is room for improvement for the "don't have as much as the have mores" in this country...
last edited: 11/18/04 9:04:07 AM”

“Political parties have nothing to do with the BSA. We are not political and do not take political stances yet everyone forces their politics on us. Back off and check yourself.

I dont agree with the boy scouts policy on having to "proclaim jesus christ as lord and saviour"

I would really like to know where it is that people get this kind of bull#&%!$ information. Perhaps you are confusing us with the Royal Rangers. A poor done Boy Scout clone organization.

Then maybe a straight non-christian like myself will be able to mentor scouts
You can do that right now. Go sign up today.

We aren't there to teach religion. As a matter of fact we are not supposed to teach religion and we are supposed to keep any religious references non-denominational unless we know the whole unit is of the same faith. The most we do is share viewpoints to help foster understanding and to support the Scouts individual efforts to follow their faith. If a boy wants to know about a faith my first question is "What does your mom and dad and priest (if he has one) say?"

The BSA has a pantheon of religious study badges that are not part of the core program taught at every meeting and activity. Just so y'all know I have been around Scouts who were members of every faith mentioned here. Yes, athiest too. And I'll go ahead and say it. I am not a Christain either.

The only unacceptable religious position to the BSA is that of Athiest and that in practice holds more for adult leadership than youth membership. Frankly I find it hard to believe that a child can come to know the nature of God or lack thereof before the age of 18. Most adults struggle with it all their lives. When I see a case where a kid gets the boot for being an Athiest I have to question the motivations of the adult leadership of that unit.

As I said, this changes nothing but where the piece of paper (the charter) resides.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. If you don't want the goverment to tell you what to do then don't take any of their money. There are enough individuals out there to support the cause. In every single instance that I have seen that a united way chapter (only 10), a business or a Gov agency has pulled funding it has been replaced tenfold by others who believe in what we are doing.

I just believe that the ACLU in this instance is wasting resources. They seem to think that Chartering Organizations funnel huge amounts of cash and time into Scout Troops. The reality is that the extent of most Charter Orgs involvement is usually that they just say, Yeah, you can meet here after hours and store your crap in that closet, turn off the lights and be sure the door is locked when you leave.”

““There are a lot of Christian scouts, and predominantly Catholic, but there are also a number who are not Catholic, and a number that are not Christian.”

Getting a bit off topic here but…I have a love/hate relationship with scouts on the trail. I have been around many troops throughout the years and I can see a marked difference in them. It all comes back to the scout leaders. Two experiences stick out in my mind. The first, which was my first positive experience with scouts, was when I was camped in a park along the Maumee River. I had camp all set up and here come the scout troop. Oh shlt! These kids were the BEST! They kept their distance and when their football would come close they’d come over and get it and then ask, “We aren’t being too loud are we?”. One young man even asked if I needed any help around camp! I made a point to go talk with the scout master and commend him on how well behaved and polite his troop was. It turned out they were a troop from a local catholic school.

The second experience was on Green Lake with birch. We got into camp early and set up. Here come the scouts two by two until there were some 20 scouts in camp. Oh shlt! They were the quietest scouts I have ever come across. The next morning as we were heading out we walked by their camp and they were all in a circle, hands gathered…”Our Father who art in heaven. Hollowed by Thy name…”. While some feel that the religious aspect of the scouts is merely an agenda being pushed it can have a very profound effect on their character. And this is very evident between these two troops I have met and the other troops who were noisy, farting little tree choppers.

End of rant!”

“I tried to distinguish the doom and gloom comment to the left in general and not you in particular. Sorry that I implied otherwise.

As far as housing goes, I'd say NY, SF, and a few other places are very special cases. Conservative economist would argue that rent control has had the opposite effect. You're going to know way more about this than me. I won't debate it, I'm just regurgiating what I've read. My house payment is pretty much 1/4 of my take home.

On the West Wing last night they pointed out several prices, adjusted for inflation, comparing current with 1950's prices. Gas would be $2.80 now based on what they paid then. They also talked about how that's been held artifically low to keep the US from looking at other methods. I'm not bringing this up to start in on Bush and oil. I just thought their discussion on the topic was interesting.”

“Love/hate? Me too.
When I was a Scoutmaster there were certain events and units I wouldn't take my guys near because of the poor examples they provided.
The problem was that some of the guys picked up on some of my reasoning and began to develop a "we are better than them" attitude. That was a hard issue to rectify.”

“BTW
The thread title is misleading.
The pentagon didn't ban Scouts they banned chartering Scout units. Scout units are still welcome to operate on military installations.

When did StoveStomper start channeling the spirit of Violin?

nudge nudge ;)
last edited: 11/18/04 9:26:23 AM”